Sorry I posted 3 times.....I don't know what I did.Trying to cook and check up on SR all at the same time.

To live with it you have to lower your expectations. You're disappointed and angry with him because each time you are expecting and hoping his behaviour will change. FACT is that is isn't, he's the same as he always is and no matter how angry and how disappointed you get, he's NOT going to change. You can hope all you like, it won't make any difference.

How to live with it? Accept him the way he is, don't expect anymore than a lie.

The problem with lowering our expectations is that it lowers our self esteem too. When we accept crapping behaviour we start to believe that's all we're worthy of.

it's fine, it was so well said, it deserved to be said 3 times :-)

just now reading the post by qwe was a reminder to me...thank you, qwe, for your gentle and understanding tone.

iwant - i don't know how my post sounded in your head, but it was not meant to be snotty, sarcastic or mean. i was trying to sincerely answer your question, as i saw the only possible answer to be.

Maybe this is worth trying. (Maybe not! lol!)

Just don't lie to yourself. Be really honest with yourself and be proud for doing so.

Our primary relationship is with ourselves. So make sure you're fair and honest with "her" (you). If you make this deal with yourself, fair enough. You will tolerate lying from BF.

Make the deal clear, detailed and about you and what you want. No point in even discussing it with him- it's not about him. Plus, its pointless to make a deal with someone you don't trust to keep their word- that's like pouring coins into an obviously broken parking meter and then getting mad or surprised if we get a ticket!

So anyway, make a deal with yourself that you'll stay with this guy for X, Y, and Z reasons, because you get or want those things, you will also do A,B, ad C for your own life- like friends, work, activities you enjoy.

And if the deal is ever not working for you, you have a right to change it. If you aren't getting XYZ and ABC becasue of the problems in the relationship, change your mind and get into a situation where you CAN get those things, or at least have a better shot at it.

Wow, thanks for all the great responses. I was quite upset and down about it all when i got home yesterday but i tried to make the most of my evening. I agree that i need to have fewer expectations – i had been doing this but i let myself look forward to arranged things again because i thought things were improving on that front. I’m beginning to realise that i shouldn’t allow anyone to lie to me to this extent and i know i don’t deserve all these lies. I have decided to talk to ABF about it again (i know, most of you think there is no point) and tell him how much i hate being lied to and how it is destroying any trust i have in him. I still haven’t had the big chat about his drinking that i asked about a couple of weeks ago, so I am going to do it all at the same time.
I’m fed up with having to put my values aside just for him, and i can see how i’ve allowed my personal boundaries to be stretched by him. In my previous relationship (not an A) i would not have allowed myself to be treated that way – I would probably have got annoyed and told him I was angry/upset, and he would have apologised and made it up to me (and not done it again). My ex BF hardly ever lied to me except at the end when he was considering ending the relationship, and that broke my heart – I never thought he would lie to me. That is why I hate being lied to but I’ve allowed this to happen. Maybe because my faith in people was a bit bashed by me ex lying when i thought he never would – i don’t know.

I am taking all your advice on board and seriously thinking that i shouldn’t be accepting these lies anymore. I don’t think I can accept it much longer and i’m pretty sure i can’t really detach from them, so unless he starts in recovery soon and stops lying, I actually don’t think we will work. I want to explain this to him as he clearly thinks it is OK to lie to me as long as he apologises afterwards. The thing is, the lies aren’t malicious or nasty to me at all. They are always either because he is ashamed at where he is and the fact he is drinking, or they are to claim he’s done something he should have done (like attend an interview or fill out a form) so that I don’t worry and am proud of him. That’s why I find it easier to ‘forgive’ him – if they were lies that were purposely to deceive me or manipulate me, or to go commit a crime or something, I wouldn’t be able to put them behind me at all. It sounds like i’m making excuses, but i’m trying to explain my actions. And of course there’s the old favourite – when he’s sober things are so good that I almost forget about the lies.

I have come a long way, working on me, and i am not prepared to let that suffer now. Things are better for me than they were months ago, and when i write on here it is usually when something bad has happened, so it probably appears that i haven’t improved much at all! You are all right though – I shouldn’t accept them and I need boundaries back so that i don’t allow people to treat me this way. It seems like there are so many things going on in my head, with me and with my relationship, that i cant seem to focus on everything at once – i’m working on me and find the relationship problems can’t be tackled at the same time. I’m usually so good at multi-tasking!

blueblooms - thanks, i like your idea and i think maybe for the moment, while i'm working out, and dealing with, so many things, it might be a good place to start.

I reread your post and realized i didn't really address your question. which appears to be has anyone chosen to remain in a relationship with an addict and a liar? The answer is yes. I have. I remember confronting him once and the look on his face as he asked "what if I promised never to lie to you again?". In the span of three years the lies became bigger, more intense, more frequent, more severe and tragically hurtful. When he would try that Jedi move and admit to lying, I got to the point where I'd say " A LIAR CAN NOT LIE TO ME ABOUT TELLING A LIE!" It just became insane. He won! I lost. I lost so much of myself, my core ethics, principals, belief system. And what simmered beneath the surface of that relationship, apart from the alcoholism and addiction, was the fact that everytime HE lied...he then lied to HIMSELF that I believed him...and figured since I did - I was a liar too! See the twist? A lot of the lies were to hide the addiction and money spent there on. Seeing as he's dead now? The lies of infidelity in the early staged of our relationship came to light. Living in a constant state of crisis and chaos with a detective hat on is exhausting. It wasn't until I let go and began to hold my own acord and simply roll my eyes or completely ignoring the garbage coming out of his mouth did I begin to rebuild...like one postage stamp size piece at a time. It's easy for us who have been there done that to tell you to run and look out for you. It's the best for you mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, etc. But we are not YOU, and with grace support your decision to stay or go.

Another great thread here, keeping me on my toes...such sages here.

iwc, as I'm reading your last post I'm really impressed how much work you're doing on this. It seems like you're really taking a stand for yourself. One of the things I've been working on in the last couple of weeks is whether or not it's even worth broaching certain topics with my A to "explain" my thoughts/process, etc...in fact, in the last counseling session I chose to NOT bring up the FB pics showing my A drinking and dancing with someone else (REALLY CLOSELY, as in, couldn't have gotten any closer), or the fact that rumor has it my A was talking that night about wanting to be in a relationship. I didn't bring it up because I came to the conclusion that it just DIDN'T matter. It took all of my strength, as fatigued as I was, just to ask for a break. I cried and ached and came home and bawled. But even though I was completely mentally and emotionally exhausted, I knew that if I brought up that "other" stuff, it would take more energy b/c my A would most likely (almost 100% likelihood, based on my experience) would have DENIED all of it. And in truth, much of it (aside from those pics) was second-or-third-hand information.

But here's the thing: when I heard about it and saw the pics on FB it completely made sense to me. It was hard to see, painful, but it validated what I already knew. So I got more clarity about the senselessness of having those "talks" b/c my A is really good at A): pointing out how my perceptions must be faulty due to my "need to control", "need to judge", and "need to manipulate"; B): apologizing in just the right words so that I "listen" and "fall for it" again and again; and C): donning just the right facial expressions and moments to reach out and take my hand in just the way I've "always" wanted someone to do those sorts of things. Yeah, those talks were not helping me in the ways I thought--but they did help me begin to understand the "hooks" and what they looked like before I let them sink into me.

I needed to have those "talks" at the time. I'd just caution you to about being invested in what he says and what actually happens after that. I've said for a long time that my A "can talk the talk but doesn't walk the walk." I recognized that a long time ago, but I still had those "talks" to help me feel better. Over time, it stopped feeling better in a major way. Now I'm happy to say that a week into our month-long "break" I'm sleeping well, getting my house cleaned up, working on my taxes, enjoying my kids more and recognizing an increased energy level. For me, that is way better than the "talks". I'm sad sometimes, I miss my A, but I'm not devastated, as I'd feared I would be. And I'm not the least bit tempted to have a "talk". Instead I remember the pics on FB and how they validated what I already knew, read my journal entries, I read/post on this board and go to Alanon, where I talk about healing myself. It's getting easier.

Sending you hugs and cheers for continued growth. You're obviously doing great work!
posie

Do you see how your boundary is collapsing? "These lies" aren't so bad. Yeah, they're still lies, but.........

He IS purposely deceiving and manipulating you. He wants you to THINK that he is working on recovery, when in truth he is not.

The thing about denial is it's impossible to SEE it while you are IN it.

L

I so agree with LTD! Of course he is manipulating you -
when he tells you a lie so that you will be proud of him (or get off his a$$ - in the case of filling out a job app) he is LYING to make you LIKE him and APPROVE of him.

What is manipulation except making people believe or act in the ways that you want them to?

Honestly, iwc, I don't understand what you enjoy about this game?

You are absolutely spot on. My ex still tells the lies and has the giant act going, months after I'm gone, so that the perception is she is getting better, when everyone with a brain cell knows otherwise.

Mine keeps going on about 'the lessons she has learned' and how she is 'applying them to her new life' and it's 'working quite well for her'. Um really? Is getting smashed in front of my daughter 'working quite well for you'?

It's all an act. All of it.

When the exagf says, "Our differences are workable but you don't seem to want to try anymore and your mind is made up"

In alcoholese that actually means "I don't really give a crap about our differences, I'm pissed off that you aren't falling for my manipulations and lies anymore, and you should just be a good puppet/dupe/doormat and come back and take it."

You gotta be able to read between the lines with the alkies at all times and never let your guard down. Me, I can't live like that, so I left and now I only have to deal with her on a cursory level because frankly, she makes my skin crawl nowadays.

Exactly what I was thinking. If you KNOW something and you make a decision that it is okay with you, your deal or agreement is with you. That means being honest with ourselves about the facts/data- that our SO is lying or drinking or cheating or demanding to live with or self-obsessed and uncaring (all of the above for my SO) and we have to be honest as to whether we want to live like that. That way, it doesn't have a lot to do with the person, or confronting or explaining or debating or making deals with them. Like Posie said about bringing up the FB thing about her SO-- we know what we know. So if we choose to stay, honestly, we're staying for something WE are wanting or getting and that's about us.

[I][B]I don’t know the best way to deal with the lying. Any opinions would be welcomed. I can either:

- pretend I believe him for an easy life and carry on with the charade until he possibly tells me the truth one day
- pretend I believe him for a while (he’s usually drinking when tells the lie) but then reveal that I know he was lying once he’s sobered up (I usually do this, but it causes arguments because he gets angry at me for pretending that everything was OK, then saying it isn’t – because basically he thought he’d got away with it I think)
- tell him straight away that I know he is lying (and deal with the anger and rudeness this causes immediately). There is always the possibility that I might have got it wrong and he was telling the truth about something. This also leads to an argument because he thinks I’m always expecting the worst (well, duh)
- asking him after the event whether he was telling the truth or not (could get another lie in return so doesn’t achieve anything)
- try to get him to admit to his lie by being subtle and saying that it is OK but there really is no need to lie about things etc etc (the softly, nicely approach)

There are another couple of options:
*pretend you believe him for an easy life and carry on with the charade until you totally loose your mind & are so mentally ill you can't escape.
*Stay in the relationship until he embraces true recovery, at which point you won't see him for dust: why would a recovered person want to live with a doormat?
*Get out now, work on your own recovery & live a great life.

Gee I wish I was back were you are so I could choose the much less painful option.

You shouldn't be agreeing with us, you should be screaming from the rooftops "Why the he*l shouldn't I have high expectations!!!!!"

You SHOULD be looking forward to things, you SHOULD be looking forward to spending time with a partner and making arrangements. You should expect NOT to be lied to.

So why don't you?

My husband started off like your abf, he now is in so much denial of reality and lies so often it is comical, literally, I laughed out loud at him in front of the police. I wished that I had known about alcoholism before I even met or dated him.

My life now includes a baby and a hot mess, bloodbath of a divorce, that I wish upon no one-not even my pathetic AH. Please see that you are worth much more, you have a lot of value, you deserve to be happy all of the time and cherish every moment of your life, choose happiness, things can and will get out of control before you know what hit you (literally or figuratively).

well, there have been some developments - ABF actually initiated a talk when sober about the way things have been and what he wants for the future. I know for now it is just talk and I have to wait for the actions, but i'm feeling hopeful about things. He acknowledged the fact that he lies when drinking, and I think I underestimated the amount he has been drinking lately, so all the lies have stemmed from this. I'm still not excusing him, but I'm more prepared now to not accept any more lies. he knows how serious things have been getting and that I'm really not happy with the way thigns have been. I sincerely hope it is not just talk, but i feel so much more equipped to enforce my boundary of not accepting lies. Thanks to you all for your uplifting words.

It has been so enlightening seeing that most, if not all, A's lie and that my situation is not a special case.

Unfortunately, the disease perpetuates lying. It's the only life they know, and its the only way they get what they want.

I wish you the best, and sending (((hugs))) your way IWC.

I really appreciate your question. I have pondered the answer.

I do accept lies from my RA. I have let go of my black and white thinking about his ability to tell the truth being the exact same as my truth telling ability. Both of us being ACOA's we grew up with lying called denial, where lying became "normal,"along with manipulation and controlling behavior. We wouldn't even have thought that denying drinking was lying, but more like wishful magical thinking like there really is no pink elephant in the room, while clicking our ruby red heels together three times. Or maybe telling someone what I/we believed they wanted to hear at the time?

I don't even think of lies being black and white anymore. I think of them in gray. I have an interesting perspective on it. I've been with my now sober husband for half of my life. He told me once while sober that if he felt trapped, then he would lie. I see denial in my son where he doesn't want to accept reality as it is. I see the denial as his coping mechanism. Reality is often hard. Denial cushions the blow.

I try not to lie. I own my reality and my side of the street. I choose to accept that my husband will lie. I remember telling my oldest son that I've learned to lie, being with my husband. I would not want to tell him that I had any money or my husband would want it for example. I realize that I am not perfect either.

I also look at society, and how sometimes lies are acceptable like that commercial about, does my butt look big? Being tactful is sometimes stretching truth?

I'm not saying that you accept lying or my particular brand of what lying could be. I'm just saying that there are different excuses for lying. I can only ascertain why I might or might not lie in a given situation.

I guess maybe all of this post is my justification for accepting unacceptable behavior. I don't much care for lying either. I try to be honest myself.
Thanks for letting me share.