19 out of 20 individuals in recovery (any type of recovery) relapse - That's a fact!

Most people in AA have tried recovery on their own and failed - That's a fact!

Most people in recovery (any type of recovery) fail because they underestimate the seriousness of their disease/illness/affliction - That's my opinion.
:bad:

Wow messedup12, read a book called Under the Influence. Maybe you'll get a better understanding. Alcoholism is a disease. You protest too much. Insanity yes - it's insane to pick up while you are sober believing it will be different this time, it won't be. Powerless - yes, after drink number one it's out of control for the alcoholic. People push AA because it has worked for hundreds of thousands of people. You know many people who died because of AA? Really? Getting back on your horse after numerous relapses becomes more difficult with or without AA. Brainwashed? How weak are these people you know? Good luck

This is a great thread thank you for posting Messedup12 it has helped remind me of the nature of my disease.

I know exactly where you are coming from - I was there myself three months ago. In fact, we also share DoCs too. See some of my early posts they are quite similar to yours. I am not going to rehash and frankly Joe, Deeker et al have summarized things quite eloquently but here are my 2 cents:

I am in AA, I take good and bad from the program. I have made friends and I feel accountable. I too don't like when some preach their program to me but I also understand the intentions are good - took some time to be like a duck and let it roll off.

My miracle happened not in AA but in therapy (I do this too). It was actually how I listen to music and realizing when I hear a song I like I listen to it over and over. So I started to look at other things I do with this obsessive behavior. It turns out everything, since I was little. Drinking was the same - I had ot be the best at it and when that high ended well adding coke and other things to the mix worked well. The overwhelming nature of my discovery allowed me to give up fighitng who I am and accepting this is how I am wired. Not brainwashed but wired. If everything I have ever done is this way the chance of changing this is unlikely, so accepting this meant realizing I could not drink or drug recreationally.

To use a cliche: by surrendering the fight, I have a chance to win the war. I still think and sometimes ever romance the escapades. I know that if I went back there would be no romance - recovery ruins the ability to drink and drug again bc there is now guilt and cocnscious of the act. With this resolve has come peace, for me.

Keep posting, challenging, and asking questions. Not all programs will work for you but when you get one that does pay it forward by letting others know your experience - I believe this is what others are doing for you (I am) and recognize most are not pushing their program on you just trying to help you.

Good luck!

The numbers are dire in any given quit. I think I read 5% will make it to 90 days and another 5% of those will make 2 years. I don't know how accurate that is because it doesn't include people like me (if I don't end up going back out and end up in formal treatment)
Those numbers seem pretty close to those who will quit smoking on any given quit yet there are more exsmokers in the US than smokers. People do recover. That kindling effect is a huge cost to repeated alcohol quits though. I think you are right about the reason people fail being that they underestimate just how serious this is. I didn't even try to quit until I realized that.

1/3 Fully Recover From Alcoholism

Even though 12-step recovery was not effective for me and at times had a negative impact, over all it pointed me in a good direction. It was not that there was anything wrong with AA etc. It was just that I needed one-on-one support and had to be open about negative parts of my experience.

But it is the nature of people to think that their own individual experience is universal. "If it worked for me, it will certainly work for you." Sometimes we twist ourselves into pretzels in this belief. (People who say that if AA does not work for you it is because you are not really an alcoholic even though the simpler explanation would be to say that AA does not work for each and every alcoholic.)

What AA is good at is providing a vision of what sober life is. It is not just going without alcohol but rather some positive to experience. The recovering person is not just moving away from someone but rather moving toward something. It is probably the nature of such a vision to stimulate the evangelical behavior.

Just a couple of facts, in case they haven't already been mentioned.
The AA Big Book, which is the basis for the fellowship of AA and contains the directions for the AA program of recovery, uses the word "disease" only one time, and that is in the context of 'spiritual disease'.

Even a casual reading of Chapter 7, Working With Others, reveals that the directions for 'pushing' the AA program on others is very contrary to what is described in the original post. Instead of pushing, the suggested method is to share how this program worked for us. In fact, the approach is very much 'take it or leave it', and specifically states, "If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience." Treatment centers and so forth can do whatever they want, but any AA member 'pushing' the program on someone that isn't interested or isn't convinced they need it, is really doing a disservice to themselves and the person they are trying to help.

quotes aabb1st

Ok...y'all done bickering? So we now know what we will NOT do to get sober. So I guess the question what are you going to do about? I mean judging by the fact you are posting here on SR, there must be some question as to your ability to refuse to drink and/or drug, powerless or not. So what are you going to do about it. If posting on the internet is the answer for you, good. Please keep in mind some of us hardcore addicts needed something a little more...um, powerful. I chose rubberbands. But that idea came via God, whom I chose to call my higher power. I also had some benefit from physical activity and random acts of kindness, again suggested by God. But that's just me and I smoked crack for along time so I may be a little sqiurrely in my thinking. Then again, my daughter invited me to her new/first house yesterday, so I must say the miracles they talk about in AA do happen if your willing to work for them. I am.

Be Well
Larry

Can you explain the rubber bands? I cannot figure out how using rubber bands figure into a recovery program.

I have an image of you adding a new rubber band to a rubber band ball every day that you stay clean.

I already have a lot of understanding than you. Alcoholism has never been proven to be a disease actually, there is no evidence what so ever, so that is a theory, and your opinion as for everything else you've said. Weak people? I'd call them vulnerable, which is a place where people can be easily brainwashed, as I'm sure you already know that if you're in AA.. and by the sounds of it, you are too as you haven't used an 'i' statement at all in your reply...

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I am not an addict, it was my RAXBF. I am new to all this so it was just a question I had as I am still learning but I learned something from your answers so thank you all...............and sorry again if I offended (Oops!)

Oh did I offend you? I think you're having a :react. Good luck.

let us all take a moment to review rules:


A discussion is a conversation when all parties are listening to each other and sharing ideas. Respectful disagreements are disagreements that still allow the other person their own opinion.

Discussions are showing an interest in understanding why another feels a certain way. We listen intently as they explain themselves and are free to admit any error in our own ways of thinking.

A discussion is a cooperative effort and seeks resolution resulting in a peaceful end even when there are disagreements. Discussions help all to gain a better understanding of both sides of the issue.

Debates [for the purpose of this forum] are when posters only want to express themselves and discredit the opinions of others in a disrespectful way. Attacking someone else's ideas is not appropriate.

lets keep things on the discussion side, or this thread will be closed.

D

Didn't read replies. Lots of things **** me off too. I would suggest you make the best of it, learn as much as you can, focus more on similarities than differences. It's not about being right, it's about being sober. Have a great night. :)

You're right Dee. My bad. Sorry you had to jump in. 😳

If I've been brainwashed, it was the best brainwashing ever as it has made my life pretty awesome. I'm free from alcohol, free to do whatever I please, free to create, live, love, learn, travel, work, have new experiences, exercise, be healthy, have a spiritual life, have lots of friends who are there for me... I have every single thing I need, and just about everything I want... and on top of all that I get some genuine moments of peace. :) Can't really see how that brainwashing is hurting me in any way whatsoever, if it is indeed brainwashing. My drinking brain needed a good washing anyway. OK. I'm done here.

I didn't need my brain washed, I needed it bleached. AA isn't the only recovery program out there. Regardless of whatever method/program you use, pay close attention at yourself. Sometimes we can't see ourselves plunging in a downward spiral.

Interesting thread...lots of ideas and beliefs, and that is what makes a good topic a great one, even when it veers into rule breaking territory (Thank God...or whoever your HP is, for Dee).

The disease concept bothers me sometimes. On the one hand, I chose to nearly drink myself into an early death, so it was my fault, not a physical illness. But I still understand why that concept makes sense, because it seems that there is a genetic predisposition to addiction/alcoholism, just as there are many genetic predispositions to disease, and that this predisposition is a physical deformity that affects specific people (I'm not a Doctor, so my language is probably wrong....I hope you get my meaning).

The bottom line is this: It is what it is. I use what works for me to overcome my alcoholism, pieces of AA, Christianity, positive thinking, exercise...lots of stuff. It's clinging to the belief that only one path, or one program, and that alone, can heal us that closes us off to new recovery options. I think we should use what we want and need, and respect the choices of others to use what they want and need. Be open to other ideas too, because you never know if a new idea might make your fight easier. And for Heavens sake, don't take offense at the beliefs of others even if they seem nuts, even if they are doing this to you. Live and let live.

longbeachone, you should follow your own advice.

I found AA helpful at first. I do believe it's like an illness,that's why you should not berate yourself. However, I also believe you can empower yourself again and that worked for me. Horses for courses and all that.

Hi Joe, I think you are mixing a few things up, when you use an example of a heart attack to prove we are powerless.

There is a probability we all may face a heart attack, that probability can change depending our age, our diet, exercise, etc.. but there is a chance that anyone of any age may die in that way. That probability doesnt make us powerless, it just means there is a risk and that risk can be reduced by eating less fat, exercise, etc...

We should also note, that taking aspirin has been shown to assist survival rates after an attack and also reduce the chances of having one, so again we are not powerless, we are able to reduce the risk with appropriate medication.

Saying we are powerless really gives out the wrong message and ignores all that we (humanity) have learnt and striven for as a species.