Moderation?
 

With all the recent talk in this section about forum rules and sticking to secular recovery only, something caught my eye. I have "only" been on and off SR since 2010, but I never knew there once once a "Moderation Forum" here on SR. That surprised me, so I thought maybe I heard wrong.

My husband surprised me just the other day by commenting that he was probably the only one of us who "really" had a drinking problem. He grew up in a severely alcoholic home, his parents owned bars and he spent time in them when he was a baby, and his parents had raging "drunk fights" on a regular basis. His mother started feeding him wine early on, and by the time he was sixteen, he had a glass of wine with dinner. Not surprisingly, his parents died horrific deaths, both related to severe alcoholism.

Yes, my husband's "problem" was worse than mine. He topped out at a gallon of Carlo Rossi rhine wine every night and often went to get more, and his favorite "sport" was beer and pool with friends at a local pub. MY "problem" was two bottles of Cold Duck every night. Oh, I always planned to drink only one, but that was a rarity at the end.

We both quit drinking in 1991: I quit in January, and he followed in March when he realized I was "serious." Neither of us has ever drunk alcohol again. These days, being a non-drinker is as easy as breathing, and neither of us is ever tempted. However, he hasn't played pool for over twenty years, something he used to love to do. Too strong a connection with the beer, and he says he would not have fun playing pool without it.

To be honest, I have considered "moderation" over the years. I'm a "second generation" alcoholic -- my parents did not drink until I left home (my mom was a wino for a few years in the 70's, then stopped), but both my grandpas were alcoholics, my mom's dad being the worst. I was never interested in drinking until I after I married my husband. I joined him slowly, then gradually built up to the 2 bottles/day of Cold Duck over the course of a 20 year drinking habit. By then, alcohol "had me."

I do think I could have a glass of wine here and there, perhaps at a restaurant. My husband has even given me the "okay" to do that. However, I have never taken him up on it. His family history is too strong, as is his personal history, and I would not even consider "doing that" to him. Even thought I think I could probably do it and stick to a glass of wine on the rare occasion of a family celebration or special dinner out.

Is that my AV? Really? Since alcohol was an "acquired taste" for me, I sometimes wonder if I am a "real" alcoholic. I don't think I have the enzyme deficiency some alcoholics do (acetaldehydism). When I quit drinking in 1991, I even bought a bottle of Cold Duck and kept it in the fridge -- however, it became the impetus for me to really quit drinking -- knowing I could drink it if I wanted to empowered me. I had the choice, and I chose not to do it.

On a website like SR, I'm not sure I want to even talk about this. My guess is that the "collective beast" would gather in numbers.

Maybe I am really just a "normie" who got steered down the garden path?

I really don't know, and I won't likely experiment with the idea. Just some Sunday morning musings.

FT

I don't know. I can't moderate. That's really all I know.

The fact that you said, "It had me."


I think that answers the question.

I think that as soon as I had one, the beast would be saying, "See? You're ok. Have another", and like a bad one night stand I wouldn't be able to get it out of the house the next morning.

it makes people nervous because the majority see this topic for discussion as a big time trigger. It is also "sober" recovery. The main line of thought in recovery is that abstinence is the only way.

FT, I have a theory that once you become dependent on alcohol parts of your brain re-wire and you develop 'receptors' for it. While you stay sober it's not an issue, but even the odd glass of wine could awaken the latent parts of your brain that have an affinity for alcohol.

I see it as similar to a smoker gives up then has a drag on a friend's smoke. The brain recognises the pleasure and starts demanding more.

I recognise your wish for the odd glass with dinner, but I feel you might be endangering your sobriety, and eventually your husbands.

8 Miles High
 

Being a 'Free Range' Thinker, I'd like to comment in a slightly different way...

You would have made a good Lawyer. A primary Characteristic they need to have is the ability to know the answer to a question before asking it in your OP. Your stated consumption of 'Cold Duck' is the amount you gravitate to if left to your own 'devices'.

In Scotland, my Pals talk about getting 'Legless'. I.e., hammered. I 'achieved' that state plenty. I'd be going along in a state I thought was pretty OK. It wasn't OK. It was familiar. In one of many such states, I crawled down the very steep Captain's Ladder in a rented RV we parked one night in a lovely mid-California State Park. I was snoozing up over the Driver's Seats. I slipped and gouged my Calf on this sharp edge of Masonite on the Dinette Seat Back just behind the Driver's Seat. Started bleeding like a MoFo. Alcohol thins the Blood. I felt my bare Feet 'stick' in something. I flipped on the Light, and was 'stuck' in a Pool of my own Blood about the diameter of your average 'Large' Pizza. I managed to stop the bleeding and sop up all the Blood; all w/o waking Da Wife. I damned near bled to death. I kept Drinking thereafter.

The Bodily 'Feedback Loop' of when I was ripped was 'broken'. I would mistakenly wait for Bodily symptoms to tell me to skip the next Glass of Single Malt. That Cellphone call was never completed, so to speak.

I'm sure you'll get plenty of pointed 'advice' on what you should do. I don't go there. I'll make instead the Clinical observation that this same 'Feedback Loop' of knowing when you're high 'enough' might be broken in you, too. It was 'honed' on 2 Bottles of Cold Duck, and that's the prior level of 'highness' that will seem familiar. That was the case with me, fo sho.

As with compartmentalizing my AV via AVRT, I compartmentalize the concept that this very furrowed Intoxication Feedback 'Rut' in me has changed; irrespective of elapsed time [~20 years or 'whatever']. I look at that well-worn 'Rut' and dismiss it, chuckling. I'm fantasizing if I think it's changed in me.

Early on here, I saw 'Conventional Wisdom' posted on another Thread elsewhere that a BAC of 0.50% likely means Death. Not automatically so, and I'm not trying here to minimize the seriousness of this Topic. Not surprisingly, see below what a fellow Polack, as we call ourselves, 'achieved' as a top BAC. My point: we acclimate to this level of 'highness' and still function. It seems 'normal'. It sure did with me. Right up through pounding a 1.75 L 'Handle' of Vodka every 2 days. Hey, I was fine. Just ask me back then.

I trust our Mods will understand my pure motives in posting this Link. I'm illustrating that many of us 'train' to function at insane BACs. Nothing is being 'glamorized' here, IMO. It illustrates the sordid depth achievable in acclimated Drinking tolerance.

From the first Comment below this Article:

Daniel Charlton - 124 days ago

'Had a client today with bac of 1.88 I checked it 7x and same reading each Time. Recommend detox he said maybe tomorrow denial at its best. He actually walked out of my clinic. Checked my machine it was accurate.'

The 5 Highest BACs Ever Recorded

AV (addictive voice) is any thought, idea, feeling that leads to future drinking. What I've bolded is totally AV.

FT, do you entirely separate yourself from your AV? Just asking as food for thought. :)

i went round and round the moderation experiment for a very long time. I tried to only drink at weekends, not drink on work nights, have 2 nights off a week, 1 night off a week, only drink beer, only drink wine, ever changing promises and pledges with myself in a way to control my drinking, or make it seem to myself that I was controlling it.

In the end, there was no controlling alcohol, it was controlling me, and so the only answer was to part ways with alcohol, that helped me regain control of my life.

I can only speak from my experience, but be weary of opening that door if it's best left closed!!

AVRT is fantstic method for breaking an addiction. I focused on it, utilised it in 'early' sobriety. But , for me, it is a means to an end.
I'm sober now and plan to stay that way. Were I to choose to drink again , I have little doubt that at some point I would become addicted again and most likely with worse consequences. If the day ever came that found me deciding a could 'handle' a leisurely six pack or pint of whisky , I would first need to fashion a placard and afix it over my front door " abandon all hope, ye that enter here".
The only way I think the 'beast' or my AV can exist is by giving it fuel. Before I heard or used those terms in the formal sense , the battle had begun. After reading RR material I was able to recognize through introspection , the battle was already taking place. I was almost convinced in the alcoholic fog of active drinking that I had a split personality, in a way I did, I just didn't see it those terms. I didn't want to continue like that , but I was, the AV was winning by default.
Finding SR and being pointed to that material is what truly let me break free. I think it really resonated with me because how accurately it described what I was going through.
Thank you JT for writing it down and good on me for following through.
Choosing not to drink is how to be abstinent, being abstinent is choosing not to drink. I actually did need someone else to point that out to me, but from there it was up to me.

I really Enjoyed this post, thanks FT

I am not an alcoholic or even a problem drinker, my DOC was gambling so that is where my response is coming from.

For me contemplating gambling again is just a healthy part of how I live in recovery and it isn't some kind of addictive voice conspiracy to get me back in action.

When I consider things I consider them pragmatically, so abstinence isn't for me an achievement but a result of thinking about how I want to live.

Most mornings to varying degrees I muse as you have done FT, I don't fear asking questions of myself and come at things for the most part from a. Neutral stance I guess you could call it Curious Contemplation.
This kind of approach is open, fresh, cool and calm. When a thought comes to mind about something like Moderation Management, I try and look at it from all angles I do some research (thanks google) I become aware of my initial re-coil to the idea of MM and see how Abstinence Only is kind of indoctrinated into my psyche. I challenge myself as much as possible to see past pre-conceived ideas. Taking this kind of curious observer stance I then can usually weigh things up based on Reality not Belief.

For example I would write down what the best case scenario would be if I tried a moderation approach and then Took a Bet, and I would write down what the worst case scenario would be.
Weighing in with my own evidence of experience, and being totally honest the worst case scenario is also the most likely outcome. In other words I have little or no evidence that moderation has ever worked or even been attractive to me and piles and piles if evidence that when I gambled (starting at small and moderated amounts and times) I was completely unsatisfied unless I was going all the way.
Therefore I have chosen abstinence because I like Living and like Life clear of self inflicted drama and suffering.

Thank you for that insight, Samseb. We seem to think a fair bit alike. I also view this issue pragmatically, and I love the way you put it, "...so abstinence isn't for me an achievement but a result of thinking about how I want to live."

I have never looked at my "sobriety" as an achievement, and I put it in quotations marks because I do not wear it like a label. I snidely call myself an "Advanced Nephalist" knowing full well that few will know what I mean without looking it up.

I'll have to admit that I was rather surprised at myself when I became a Cold Duck "addict" because I really did not like the taste of alcohol at all when first introduced to it, and my first adventures with alcohol included drinking vast quantities on the occasional weekend and barfing for the next day with a pounding migraine, then not drinking at all for weeks on end. It took a diligent effort at nightly drinking for several years before I could "achieve" that second bottle a night.

I now view my choice to be a non-drinker as an actual choice. I am around alcohol frequently enough to "test" myself and I just don't feel like drinking. I was given a glass of peach colored punch at my son's wedding and took a sip before I realized it was alcohol. I recognized the taste of rum right away, and it sort of burned on the way down. It was not pleasant and I set the glass down without drinking any more of it. I realized that the "bad" taste would not remain bad for long if I kept going.

My choice is rational and calm, and there is no struggle involved. I don't recall really "struggling" when I quit drinking to begin with. It was more an annoying "pull" to drink, and I was annoyed at myself that it was happening to me. I made a decision not to drink any longer, and that was that. Granted, I had "tried" to quit numerous other times over the years, but I just did not care enough to be serious about not drinking until I'd just had enough and finally took a stand.

The part you said about "... being totally honest the worst case scenario is also the most likely outcome. In other words I have little or no evidence that moderation has ever worked...." is what rings the most true for me.

Why tempt fate when my life is not a struggle with a substance right now? So, I choose NOT to.

Thanks for your refreshing, and logical post.

FT

Two things jump out at me with this post:

1) you are biassing strongly on genetic vs environmental causation of alcoholism or actually addiction to be more precise. You mention 2nd generation and your husband's family history as strong reasons why he cannot drink. However, I am not so sure this is a valid thesis in terms of causation. Personally, I place greater onus on environmental impact or at the very least equal weight...I mean two seeds, one fed water and sunlight vs one fed only water and left in darkness will have dramatically different effects.

2) Why? What about a glass of Cold Duck (not sure what this is assuming wine) appeals to you more than the life you have created? I don't believe it is an either or situation. In fact, I would be willing to bet you could moderate for a period of time...however if in fact you are genetically inclined and this disease is progressive why then would you want to go down this path? I would agree that if you are curious there really is only one way to prove the thesis. I have yet to see moderation work for an addict. In fact, the primary appeal of RR and the AVRT technique to me is the forever nature of a big plan.

Thanks for the interesting thread.

I think that is how people with long term sobriety relapse. I keep trying to play the "real" alcohol card on myself. I have come to the conclusion that if I would even take the chance of going back that is a problem. Even if you probably could get away with it ask yourself it is really worth the risk? Is a drink here or there really that important? It shouldn't be. Yes FT I think your AV is very patient. I imagine mine is as well.

When I start contemplating whether I could just have a glass here or there of wine, I realize how addicted I truly am to wine/alcohol. I quit other things that I loved that were bad for me, because I wanted to be healthier ~ Diet Cokes, usually six a day, red meat, etc. Never once do I spend a blink of time wondering if I could fit them back into my life. I certainly didn't join an on-line forum to help me quit these items and stay quit from these items. Alcohol isn't good for anybody, alcoholic or not, so why would I want to put it back into my life? And btw, I have moderated my alcohol intake, pretty successfully, for an entire summer and it was miserable. I couldn't wait to get to the drinks I "allowed" myself to have and they never fulfilled me. I was always wanting more.

I enjoyed reading this post. I am not really having a hard time not drinking. I am glad it is out of my life. I am pretty sure I could have a drink, and stop, but it would not be fun, it would not make me happy. One glass of wine would do nothing for me. I drank for the buzz, and there is no buzz on a glass of wine. I won't put this to the test. I never want to have to quit again. I do know there is no pleasure in A, meaning one, glass of wine, at least not for me. I think that is the reason you drank two bottles, not a glass. Glad that is all behind me. Just my thoughts.

I would love to drink in moderation and I would love to be a professional golfer. I would like to party at the World Cup with Shakira, but I have to accept reality.

Why drink, FT? What's going on?

Interesting thread! This is SR, and the S means "sober" so there's a "party line" involved. I don't want to be dogmatic, and there was a discussion a week ago about moderation that was based on an article that looked a little dodgy upon further review. I'll concede that it may be theoretically possible for a "true alcoholic" to rehabilitate him/herself into a 'normal drinker' but I've never seen it actually happen.

To be honest I'm not sure what the goal would even be. Did you like just having one or two in the past? I never did. I didn't understand this until much later, looking back on my decades of drinking, that I never wanted just a few. I always drank to get drunk even if I didn't admit it to myself at the time. In the way that you "intended" to only drink one bottle you admit that you bought two, so what did you plan on doing with the second? Save the drive tomorrow? Most likely your Beast/AV was coaching you to be sure to have enough since nothing ruins the party like running out of poison!

I dunno what to say, really. I'm not quite two years into sobriety not twenty like you, so we're in different places. Now I don't really miss drinking but I'm pretty sure one drink here and there would quickly escalate to blackout drinking.

Biggest issue, at least for me, is that playing at moderation is courting complete ruin for such a trifling reward. It would be like playing Russian Roulette with a grand prize of five dollars.:headbange

Why Freshstart do you think there is something going on with FT?

Freshstart, I re-read my question and I just wanted u to know I didn't mean to sound rude with the abruptness. I genuinely wish to know, what part of FT,s post suggested there was something wrong.

I think its worthwhile challenging the label "true alcoholic" what does it mean and how is it categorized. Being around recovery circles for 10 years now I often here this term BUT when you kind of open it up and peer inside it seems to be a very inexact definition almost to the point of really meaning nothing.

Lets discuss this, is it based on where your DOC has taken you, how many friends you have lost, how many lies you tell, how much money is wasted or DUI,s Or is it based on how much effort you have taken to control the drinking and failed attempts to do so. Or maybe how much physical damage it has done to your body and brain. Or is based on AA's idea that given sufficient reason you cant stop. Or is it a moral issue of giving into to selfishly wanting to live the "high life". Or is it intuitive "i just know" kind of thing.
The strange thing here is we all probably suffer from a confirmation bias towards seeing people who appear to recover like us as True addicts/alcoholics.
the Big Book suggests that if you recover without some kind of Spiritual Experience then you are just a problem drinker, a common misdirection of logic.

Peter Soderman who wrote "powerless no longer" states research that more than 50% of people with a drinking problem recover or moderate on their own, Were those people True Alcoholics? on what basis or evidence can we say they are not?

That's why the air quotes...er, since it's written I guess just quotes.:lmao I'm referring to something that's on one level semantics but on another level a read definitional problem. I don't know what a "real alcoholic" is. I can only tell you my definition of a problem; if drinking is causing trouble in your life and you are unable to prevent consequences I call that a problem. Really it would be fair to see that if your drinking bothers you then it's a problem to you.


I don't know Peter Soderman nor have I ever read the Big Book although I think I know what it is. If Soderman claims that half of problem drinkers can moderate on their own I'd love to see the evidence he uses to bolster that claim. My experience is that his claim is vastly inflated. I know personally maybe one problem drinker that managed to later moderate her drinking. That's just anecdotal, not real evidence, but given the thousands of drinkers I've known you'd think it would be more common.

Of course, I guess we're back to the definitional problem. It's also pretty clear that there are people, especially young people, that get involved with a "party culture" where they drink way too much but eventually outgrow it. Those are the ones I would pretty squarely place in the group of that learns to moderate on their own...probably because they graduated, moved out of the dorms and got jobs.

On the other hand I think we can say uncontroversially that there are some very hardcore drinkers; physically addicted to the point of violent DTs, failed to stop despite failing health and repeated attempts, etc. I'm skeptical that all those folks could easily "recover or moderate on their own". Again, if there's hard scientific evidence I'd be interested in seeing it. My hunch is that the "low hanging fruit" of kids in youth culture outgrowing college and people dealing with short term life issues that account for a good share of those stats.

This leads me back full circle to where I came in. Personally I've never met anyone that drank like me that ever managed to moderate, ever. Some stop, many die. But moderate? I literally can't name one person I've ever met that managed it. But even if it's possible, is it the best option? Or a good option? As I said before, it's a tightrope with a thousand foot fall on either side. Best case you manage to get down a couple glasses that you won't enjoy just for...what? What is the gain? Even if you have some whiz-bang CBT therapy to rewire your desire to get blasted into an appreciation for a mild buzz, is that worth the effort? Millions of people don't drink at all and don't miss it.

Not trying to argue but I just don't really see the risk vs reward analysis of moderation for a "true alcoholic" as being favoring returning to drinking. So little to gain if you succeed vs so much to lose if you fail.

Sums it up for me. My potential gain is a mild buzz now and again. My potential loss is everything I cherish. My chances of success based on 20+ years of attempting to moderate - estimated at about 5%.

Total sucker bet.

You would have to do your own analysis, of course, but that seems like a reasonable way to model it - potential gain vs potential loss weighted by probability of success.

Myth of S

I am not talking about moderation here as a viable option I simply describing and challenging pre-conceived ideas of alcoholism. You have written it yourself its a erroneous term. Its true that Sodeman may be pulling that stat from his backside, thanks for bringing that up I am actually going to check his sources (a worthwhile project). As you can tell from my first post I choose abstinence myself and part of that Clear and Concise Pathway of Choice is a thoughtful consideration of moderation, not a bulldozing past the question as if its a scary monster under the bed. So many people on here and other websites I attend make an assumption that a thought of moderation is some kind of indication that things are wrong or in RR terms "the beast" is talking, I have no problem if you need that belief to stay sober but for me such thinking is just a script made up to create a target and has no evidence or basis in reality for me.

At the end of the day I post to encourage thinking (critical thinking) and challenge probably one of the biggest problems in the weird world of recovery CREDUlLITY.

Here is quote from Pema Chodron that states my position better then I can from her When Things Fall Apart

“The most fundamental aggression to ourselves, the most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves, is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently.”
― Pema Chödrön, When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times

A difficult proposition because in many cases it is Beast talk. Or at least it's very seductive because it's what every problem drinker secretly hopes and wants to believe. Don't misunderstand me- in theory all you say is true. We can discuss moderation but very few of us will ever attain it. So few that I'm not sure it's worth much exploration except for academic discussion.

Basically we'd all like to think we might be that one in a million to make it work, but statistically any one of us is more likely to be in the other 999,999.

What an interesting discussion! Thanks FT for the thread.

I would not ask yourself if you can moderate or not. I would ask yourself what of POSITIVE value will alcohol add to your life?

What is a "true alcoholic?" Does it really matter? AVRT teaches us that the labels are superfluous at best and AV at worst. Genetic predisposition is BESIDE THE POINT.

Speaking only for myself, moderation is simply not an option. The more I tried to moderate, the less control I had. AVRT also teaches us that TIME is of no consequence. Yes, a great many years have passed since your Final Decision. However, we exist only in the now, yes? Thus the question of time is irrelevant to the discussion. We either drink or we don't. Moderation is not an option.

Sorry for the random nature of my reply. Coffee hasn't kicked in yet, LOL. Thank you for a thought provoking post. Might be back with more thoughts later.

Tremendous analysis as usual, Myth. For me, I don't want just one or two.......I want bottles and bottles, LOL!

Sam, I think your first volley was a better one in that I didn't say 'wrong'. I asked two questions and to my thinking, it was the first that had the meat. Why drink? My intent was to ask, with our experience with alcohol, why on God's green earth would we be considering drinking? What does drinking offer us? In some fashion, when we quit we each did a cost benefit comparison and it was that comparison that allowed us to choose sobriety.

Instead of 'what's going on', I might better have asked what has changed in that past experience, what has changed to invalidate that previous analysis. Have the benefits of drinking now somehow improved? Or are the risks now so much less? It is one or the other, or both surely. This is what I was referring to in my second q.

FT, maybe it was me that was abrupt. I hope you understand the real reason for my reply to your OP was concern, care, and wishes for nothing but the best that sobriety can give you.

Great discussion...I would like to throw a slightly different perspective. I self identify as an addict, of which alcohol was one of my addictions. I find that with alcohol removed and without a sufficient program, another addiction will take its place (just me). I felt the strongest addiction from cocaine. Would anyone argue trying to moderate cocaine? This is not tongue and cheek but being serious...it was legal for years and years before the US scheduled it as a class A drug. It has been demonstrated that the chemistry in our neuropathy from cocaine abuse and long term alcohol abuse is actually quite similar. So while at first my comparison may sound absurd, I would posit that it is not that ridiculous.

My point: I think it is often rationalized with alcohol because of the legality. It was man that wrote these laws however. Men and women that are sick themselves (just watch House of Cards for an accurate representation of Washington DC politics). Alcohol is a poison, empty calories at best. There is no nutritional benefit and we keep away from children. Honesty was key for me in recovery, and I never drank for anything less than a buzz (just my experience again). So while I may fool myself (some may refer to this as my beast) into thinking something different moderation for me is to rationalize getting high off alcohol, the same as cocaine.

As an opinion, I do believe this is how people with long term sobriety end up relapsing. It starts with the question, "was I really an alcoholic if I was able to stop?" It often ends with a post about how moderation does not work.