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Moderation?

Old 07-13-2014, 08:12 AM
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FT
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Moderation?

With all the recent talk in this section about forum rules and sticking to secular recovery only, something caught my eye. I have "only" been on and off SR since 2010, but I never knew there once once a "Moderation Forum" here on SR. That surprised me, so I thought maybe I heard wrong.

My husband surprised me just the other day by commenting that he was probably the only one of us who "really" had a drinking problem. He grew up in a severely alcoholic home, his parents owned bars and he spent time in them when he was a baby, and his parents had raging "drunk fights" on a regular basis. His mother started feeding him wine early on, and by the time he was sixteen, he had a glass of wine with dinner. Not surprisingly, his parents died horrific deaths, both related to severe alcoholism.

Yes, my husband's "problem" was worse than mine. He topped out at a gallon of Carlo Rossi rhine wine every night and often went to get more, and his favorite "sport" was beer and pool with friends at a local pub. MY "problem" was two bottles of Cold Duck every night. Oh, I always planned to drink only one, but that was a rarity at the end.

We both quit drinking in 1991: I quit in January, and he followed in March when he realized I was "serious." Neither of us has ever drunk alcohol again. These days, being a non-drinker is as easy as breathing, and neither of us is ever tempted. However, he hasn't played pool for over twenty years, something he used to love to do. Too strong a connection with the beer, and he says he would not have fun playing pool without it.

To be honest, I have considered "moderation" over the years. I'm a "second generation" alcoholic -- my parents did not drink until I left home (my mom was a wino for a few years in the 70's, then stopped), but both my grandpas were alcoholics, my mom's dad being the worst. I was never interested in drinking until I after I married my husband. I joined him slowly, then gradually built up to the 2 bottles/day of Cold Duck over the course of a 20 year drinking habit. By then, alcohol "had me."

I do think I could have a glass of wine here and there, perhaps at a restaurant. My husband has even given me the "okay" to do that. However, I have never taken him up on it. His family history is too strong, as is his personal history, and I would not even consider "doing that" to him. Even thought I think I could probably do it and stick to a glass of wine on the rare occasion of a family celebration or special dinner out.

Is that my AV? Really? Since alcohol was an "acquired taste" for me, I sometimes wonder if I am a "real" alcoholic. I don't think I have the enzyme deficiency some alcoholics do (acetaldehydism). When I quit drinking in 1991, I even bought a bottle of Cold Duck and kept it in the fridge -- however, it became the impetus for me to really quit drinking -- knowing I could drink it if I wanted to empowered me. I had the choice, and I chose not to do it.

On a website like SR, I'm not sure I want to even talk about this. My guess is that the "collective beast" would gather in numbers.

Maybe I am really just a "normie" who got steered down the garden path?

I really don't know, and I won't likely experiment with the idea. Just some Sunday morning musings.

FT
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Old 07-13-2014, 08:24 AM
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I don't know. I can't moderate. That's really all I know.
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Old 07-13-2014, 08:35 AM
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The fact that you said, "It had me."


I think that answers the question.
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Old 07-13-2014, 08:44 AM
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I think that as soon as I had one, the beast would be saying, "See? You're ok. Have another", and like a bad one night stand I wouldn't be able to get it out of the house the next morning.
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Old 07-13-2014, 08:57 AM
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it makes people nervous because the majority see this topic for discussion as a big time trigger. It is also "sober" recovery. The main line of thought in recovery is that abstinence is the only way.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:06 AM
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FT, I have a theory that once you become dependent on alcohol parts of your brain re-wire and you develop 'receptors' for it. While you stay sober it's not an issue, but even the odd glass of wine could awaken the latent parts of your brain that have an affinity for alcohol.

I see it as similar to a smoker gives up then has a drag on a friend's smoke. The brain recognises the pleasure and starts demanding more.

I recognise your wish for the odd glass with dinner, but I feel you might be endangering your sobriety, and eventually your husbands.
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:10 AM
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8 Miles High

Being a 'Free Range' Thinker, I'd like to comment in a slightly different way...

You would have made a good Lawyer. A primary Characteristic they need to have is the ability to know the answer to a question before asking it in your OP. Your stated consumption of 'Cold Duck' is the amount you gravitate to if left to your own 'devices'.

In Scotland, my Pals talk about getting 'Legless'. I.e., hammered. I 'achieved' that state plenty. I'd be going along in a state I thought was pretty OK. It wasn't OK. It was familiar. In one of many such states, I crawled down the very steep Captain's Ladder in a rented RV we parked one night in a lovely mid-California State Park. I was snoozing up over the Driver's Seats. I slipped and gouged my Calf on this sharp edge of Masonite on the Dinette Seat Back just behind the Driver's Seat. Started bleeding like a MoFo. Alcohol thins the Blood. I felt my bare Feet 'stick' in something. I flipped on the Light, and was 'stuck' in a Pool of my own Blood about the diameter of your average 'Large' Pizza. I managed to stop the bleeding and sop up all the Blood; all w/o waking Da Wife. I damned near bled to death. I kept Drinking thereafter.

The Bodily 'Feedback Loop' of when I was ripped was 'broken'. I would mistakenly wait for Bodily symptoms to tell me to skip the next Glass of Single Malt. That Cellphone call was never completed, so to speak.

I'm sure you'll get plenty of pointed 'advice' on what you should do. I don't go there. I'll make instead the Clinical observation that this same 'Feedback Loop' of knowing when you're high 'enough' might be broken in you, too. It was 'honed' on 2 Bottles of Cold Duck, and that's the prior level of 'highness' that will seem familiar. That was the case with me, fo sho.

As with compartmentalizing my AV via AVRT, I compartmentalize the concept that this very furrowed Intoxication Feedback 'Rut' in me has changed; irrespective of elapsed time [~20 years or 'whatever']. I look at that well-worn 'Rut' and dismiss it, chuckling. I'm fantasizing if I think it's changed in me.

Early on here, I saw 'Conventional Wisdom' posted on another Thread elsewhere that a BAC of 0.50% likely means Death. Not automatically so, and I'm not trying here to minimize the seriousness of this Topic. Not surprisingly, see below what a fellow Polack, as we call ourselves, 'achieved' as a top BAC. My point: we acclimate to this level of 'highness' and still function. It seems 'normal'. It sure did with me. Right up through pounding a 1.75 L 'Handle' of Vodka every 2 days. Hey, I was fine. Just ask me back then.

I trust our Mods will understand my pure motives in posting this Link. I'm illustrating that many of us 'train' to function at insane BACs. Nothing is being 'glamorized' here, IMO. It illustrates the sordid depth achievable in acclimated Drinking tolerance.

From the first Comment below this Article:

Daniel Charlton - 124 days ago

'Had a client today with bac of 1.88 I checked it 7x and same reading each Time. Recommend detox he said maybe tomorrow denial at its best. He actually walked out of my clinic. Checked my machine it was accurate.'


The 5 Highest BACs Ever Recorded
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FT View Post

I do think I could have a glass of wine here and there, perhaps at a restaurant. My husband has even given me the "okay" to do that. However, I have never taken him up on it. His family history is too strong, as is his personal history, and I would not even consider "doing that" to him. Even thought I think I could probably do it and stick to a glass of wine on the rare occasion of a family celebration or special dinner out.

Is that my AV? Really?

Maybe I am really just a "normie" who got steered down the garden path?

I really don't know, and I won't likely experiment with the idea. Just some Sunday morning musings.

FT
AV (addictive voice) is any thought, idea, feeling that leads to future drinking. What I've bolded is totally AV.

FT, do you entirely separate yourself from your AV? Just asking as food for thought.
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:49 AM
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i went round and round the moderation experiment for a very long time. I tried to only drink at weekends, not drink on work nights, have 2 nights off a week, 1 night off a week, only drink beer, only drink wine, ever changing promises and pledges with myself in a way to control my drinking, or make it seem to myself that I was controlling it.

In the end, there was no controlling alcohol, it was controlling me, and so the only answer was to part ways with alcohol, that helped me regain control of my life.

I can only speak from my experience, but be weary of opening that door if it's best left closed!!
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Old 07-13-2014, 12:02 PM
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AVRT is fantstic method for breaking an addiction. I focused on it, utilised it in 'early' sobriety. But , for me, it is a means to an end.
I'm sober now and plan to stay that way. Were I to choose to drink again , I have little doubt that at some point I would become addicted again and most likely with worse consequences. If the day ever came that found me deciding a could 'handle' a leisurely six pack or pint of whisky , I would first need to fashion a placard and afix it over my front door " abandon all hope, ye that enter here".
The only way I think the 'beast' or my AV can exist is by giving it fuel. Before I heard or used those terms in the formal sense , the battle had begun. After reading RR material I was able to recognize through introspection , the battle was already taking place. I was almost convinced in the alcoholic fog of active drinking that I had a split personality, in a way I did, I just didn't see it those terms. I didn't want to continue like that , but I was, the AV was winning by default.
Finding SR and being pointed to that material is what truly let me break free. I think it really resonated with me because how accurately it described what I was going through.
Thank you JT for writing it down and good on me for following through.
Choosing not to drink is how to be abstinent, being abstinent is choosing not to drink. I actually did need someone else to point that out to me, but from there it was up to me.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:38 PM
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I really Enjoyed this post, thanks FT

I am not an alcoholic or even a problem drinker, my DOC was gambling so that is where my response is coming from.

For me contemplating gambling again is just a healthy part of how I live in recovery and it isn't some kind of addictive voice conspiracy to get me back in action.

When I consider things I consider them pragmatically, so abstinence isn't for me an achievement but a result of thinking about how I want to live.

Most mornings to varying degrees I muse as you have done FT, I don't fear asking questions of myself and come at things for the most part from a. Neutral stance I guess you could call it Curious Contemplation.
This kind of approach is open, fresh, cool and calm. When a thought comes to mind about something like Moderation Management, I try and look at it from all angles I do some research (thanks google) I become aware of my initial re-coil to the idea of MM and see how Abstinence Only is kind of indoctrinated into my psyche. I challenge myself as much as possible to see past pre-conceived ideas. Taking this kind of curious observer stance I then can usually weigh things up based on Reality not Belief.

For example I would write down what the best case scenario would be if I tried a moderation approach and then Took a Bet, and I would write down what the worst case scenario would be.
Weighing in with my own evidence of experience, and being totally honest the worst case scenario is also the most likely outcome. In other words I have little or no evidence that moderation has ever worked or even been attractive to me and piles and piles if evidence that when I gambled (starting at small and moderated amounts and times) I was completely unsatisfied unless I was going all the way.
Therefore I have chosen abstinence because I like Living and like Life clear of self inflicted drama and suffering.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:10 PM
  # 12 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by samseb5351 View Post
When I consider things I consider them pragmatically, so abstinence isn't for me an achievement but a result of thinking about how I want to live.

.... I don't fear asking questions of myself and come at things for the most part from a Neutral stance I guess you could call it Curious Contemplation.

This kind of approach is open, fresh, cool and calm. When a thought comes to mind about something like Moderation Management, I try and look at it from all angles I do some research (thanks google) I become aware of my initial re-coil to the idea of MM and see how Abstinence Only is kind of indoctrinated into my psyche....

... being totally honest the worst case scenario is also the most likely outcome. In other words I have little or no evidence that moderation has ever worked....

Therefore I have chosen abstinence because I like Living and like Life clear of self inflicted drama and suffering.
Thank you for that insight, Samseb. We seem to think a fair bit alike. I also view this issue pragmatically, and I love the way you put it, "...so abstinence isn't for me an achievement but a result of thinking about how I want to live."

I have never looked at my "sobriety" as an achievement, and I put it in quotations marks because I do not wear it like a label. I snidely call myself an "Advanced Nephalist" knowing full well that few will know what I mean without looking it up.

I'll have to admit that I was rather surprised at myself when I became a Cold Duck "addict" because I really did not like the taste of alcohol at all when first introduced to it, and my first adventures with alcohol included drinking vast quantities on the occasional weekend and barfing for the next day with a pounding migraine, then not drinking at all for weeks on end. It took a diligent effort at nightly drinking for several years before I could "achieve" that second bottle a night.

I now view my choice to be a non-drinker as an actual choice. I am around alcohol frequently enough to "test" myself and I just don't feel like drinking. I was given a glass of peach colored punch at my son's wedding and took a sip before I realized it was alcohol. I recognized the taste of rum right away, and it sort of burned on the way down. It was not pleasant and I set the glass down without drinking any more of it. I realized that the "bad" taste would not remain bad for long if I kept going.

My choice is rational and calm, and there is no struggle involved. I don't recall really "struggling" when I quit drinking to begin with. It was more an annoying "pull" to drink, and I was annoyed at myself that it was happening to me. I made a decision not to drink any longer, and that was that. Granted, I had "tried" to quit numerous other times over the years, but I just did not care enough to be serious about not drinking until I'd just had enough and finally took a stand.

The part you said about "... being totally honest the worst case scenario is also the most likely outcome. In other words I have little or no evidence that moderation has ever worked...." is what rings the most true for me.

Why tempt fate when my life is not a struggle with a substance right now? So, I choose NOT to.

Thanks for your refreshing, and logical post.

FT
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:04 PM
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Two things jump out at me with this post:

1) you are biassing strongly on genetic vs environmental causation of alcoholism or actually addiction to be more precise. You mention 2nd generation and your husband's family history as strong reasons why he cannot drink. However, I am not so sure this is a valid thesis in terms of causation. Personally, I place greater onus on environmental impact or at the very least equal weight...I mean two seeds, one fed water and sunlight vs one fed only water and left in darkness will have dramatically different effects.

2) Why? What about a glass of Cold Duck (not sure what this is assuming wine) appeals to you more than the life you have created? I don't believe it is an either or situation. In fact, I would be willing to bet you could moderate for a period of time...however if in fact you are genetically inclined and this disease is progressive why then would you want to go down this path? I would agree that if you are curious there really is only one way to prove the thesis. I have yet to see moderation work for an addict. In fact, the primary appeal of RR and the AVRT technique to me is the forever nature of a big plan.

Thanks for the interesting thread.
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Old 07-13-2014, 04:54 PM
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I think that is how people with long term sobriety relapse. I keep trying to play the "real" alcohol card on myself. I have come to the conclusion that if I would even take the chance of going back that is a problem. Even if you probably could get away with it ask yourself it is really worth the risk? Is a drink here or there really that important? It shouldn't be. Yes FT I think your AV is very patient. I imagine mine is as well.
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Old 07-13-2014, 06:26 PM
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When I start contemplating whether I could just have a glass here or there of wine, I realize how addicted I truly am to wine/alcohol. I quit other things that I loved that were bad for me, because I wanted to be healthier ~ Diet Cokes, usually six a day, red meat, etc. Never once do I spend a blink of time wondering if I could fit them back into my life. I certainly didn't join an on-line forum to help me quit these items and stay quit from these items. Alcohol isn't good for anybody, alcoholic or not, so why would I want to put it back into my life? And btw, I have moderated my alcohol intake, pretty successfully, for an entire summer and it was miserable. I couldn't wait to get to the drinks I "allowed" myself to have and they never fulfilled me. I was always wanting more.
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Old 07-13-2014, 06:40 PM
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I enjoyed reading this post. I am not really having a hard time not drinking. I am glad it is out of my life. I am pretty sure I could have a drink, and stop, but it would not be fun, it would not make me happy. One glass of wine would do nothing for me. I drank for the buzz, and there is no buzz on a glass of wine. I won't put this to the test. I never want to have to quit again. I do know there is no pleasure in A, meaning one, glass of wine, at least not for me. I think that is the reason you drank two bottles, not a glass. Glad that is all behind me. Just my thoughts.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:13 PM
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I would love to drink in moderation and I would love to be a professional golfer. I would like to party at the World Cup with Shakira, but I have to accept reality.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:29 PM
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Why drink, FT? What's going on?
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:08 PM
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Interesting thread! This is SR, and the S means "sober" so there's a "party line" involved. I don't want to be dogmatic, and there was a discussion a week ago about moderation that was based on an article that looked a little dodgy upon further review. I'll concede that it may be theoretically possible for a "true alcoholic" to rehabilitate him/herself into a 'normal drinker' but I've never seen it actually happen.

To be honest I'm not sure what the goal would even be. Did you like just having one or two in the past? I never did. I didn't understand this until much later, looking back on my decades of drinking, that I never wanted just a few. I always drank to get drunk even if I didn't admit it to myself at the time. In the way that you "intended" to only drink one bottle you admit that you bought two, so what did you plan on doing with the second? Save the drive tomorrow? Most likely your Beast/AV was coaching you to be sure to have enough since nothing ruins the party like running out of poison!

I dunno what to say, really. I'm not quite two years into sobriety not twenty like you, so we're in different places. Now I don't really miss drinking but I'm pretty sure one drink here and there would quickly escalate to blackout drinking.

Biggest issue, at least for me, is that playing at moderation is courting complete ruin for such a trifling reward. It would be like playing Russian Roulette with a grand prize of five dollars.
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Why drink, FT? What's going on?
Why Freshstart do you think there is something going on with FT?
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