Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3280538)
There is no need to be bothered by those thoughts. They already passed. You just need to add the experience to your knowledge base, and stay in your right mind the next time, objectifying the AV if it pipes up. The AV is persistent, but it ultimately has only so many variations on a theme that it can resort to, which puts the odds in your favor long term. As always, set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100% all self-doubt is Addictive Voice. |
AVRT and moderation Here's a potentially interesting facet to AVRT; I don't believe it's been discussed yet. I wonder if many lurkers here are contemplating using AVRT for moderation. What if one were to create a Big Plan: I will never drink during the weekand I will never change my mind. I don't ask this for myself; as someone who will never drink again the idea is pure Beast and therefore totally academic. However, in Googling AVRT I did find a web page that suggests such a notion. To me it seems like a bad idea because:
I thought this might be worth discussing since I'm sure it crosses some people's minds who are new to AVRT. I know for personal experience, I bought the Allen Carr book with the intention of using it for one month only. Suffice to say it does not work like that. |
AVRT Tips I posted these responses in another thread, but I think they are important to this general discussion of AVRT, so I am posting links to them here for reference. |
Originally Posted by kanamit
(Post 3281219)
I wonder if many lurkers here are contemplating using AVRT for moderation.
Originally Posted by kanamit
(Post 3281219)
What if one were to create a Big Plan: I will never drink during the weekand I will never change my mind. On face value, it seems like a good idea. But would it work?This is discussed in "The Rationale for Abstinence" on pages 123-126 of RR: TNC, which covers The Crossover Effect, and in "Moderation, anyone?" on pages 80-82 of The Art of AVRT. |
Thanks for that. :) I know RR:TNC does cover the subject of moderation but I figured a lot of people reading these threads have yet to get the book. I doubt I can link to it but when you Google AVRT there is a page that ranks quite highly about using AVRT to achieve alcohol-free days. Googling something you're new to is a given these days; I just didn't want people to be led astray. As always, you've answered it 100 times better than I could. I thought perhaps using something as absolute as AVRT for moderation is like trying to demolish a multi-story building but wanting to keep one of the upper rooms intact. |
Originally Posted by kanamit
(Post 3281662)
I know RR:TNC does cover the subject of moderation but I figured a lot of people reading these threads have yet to get the book. I doubt I can link to it but when you Google AVRT there is a page that ranks quite highly about using AVRT to achieve alcohol-free days. Googling something you're new to is a given these days; I just didn't want people to be led astray. |
Yay me. I now have in my hands "Rational Recovery" and "The Small Book". :) It will be cool to contribute to this thread from a first hand experience. :) :a122: |
A note on "The Small Book"
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
(Post 3283113)
I now have in my hands "Rational Recovery" and "The Small Book". :)
Originally Posted by Jack Trimpey Do not rely on the advice in The Small Book, as we no longer recommended it for people with serious addictions. I am the author of both books and can assure you that The Small Book, although well-written and interesting, falls far short in comparison to the later and better book, Rational Recovery. |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3276997)
Notice that the AV addressed you in the second person here, which is significant. When IT talks to you this way, change the pronouns around, and stay in your right mind. Remember also the law of attribution. For example, just changing what the AV said as follows should make it fall silent very quickly. "Look at all the fun IT is missing out on. I bet IT is upset. Poor thing. I'm not missing out on anything, though, because I never use, and since addictive desire is not me, but the Beast, I don't even want to use." |
I made my big plan today. Yay. I appreciate all the pages of discussion, you guys are prolific! I have always believed that I need to live in reality and part of that is being able to be around my previous DOC without needing it or it bothering me. I did this for a long time quite easily. I was trying to work out what changed. I think 1) I had never heard of the AV concept and so was not aware of how to handle it 2) I got maybe too confident? The beast found a way in, that sneaky bugger. I used to think I needed to deal with my inner demons before I could really be fixed, but I think that is also the beast/AV talking in my ear. I like the idea of myself as a forever non drinker. I will never drink again. Its a hard sentence to type at first as my little voice (as I like to call it) whispers, wow are you sure? But the techniques I have read from you all were what I used to practice but I forgot. Thank you for reminding me and sharing the tools that have helped so many of you. In some ways it seems so simple. |
ok, I wanted to ask something too. In my quest to become a non drinker I went to many different councilors. One told me that if I put myself in a situation where there is alcohol that I am deliberately putting myself in a situation where I can relapse. not today or tomorrow perhaps but I am making that choice or I am following that voice to make bad decisions and come closer to the abyss. To me once I make the decision to be a forever non drinker, where I go should be irrelevant, If I am in that situation and my beast/av starts talking I just need to tell it to shut up. Do you think that subconsciously I could be setting myself up for failure? It was just an interesting perspective and one I don't think I believe now I have thought it through. I would just need to ignore the voice... or am I justifying unwise behavior as that person suggested. Thoughts? |
Originally Posted by CleoAK
(Post 3284187)
I made my big plan today. Yay. I appreciate all the pages of discussion, you guys are prolific!
Originally Posted by CleoAK
(Post 3284208)
In my quest to become a non drinker I went to many different councilors. One told me that if I put myself in a situation where there is alcohol that I am deliberately putting myself in a situation where I can relapse.
Originally Posted by CleoAK
(Post 3284208)
If I am in that situation and my beast/av starts talking I just need to tell it to shut up.
Originally Posted by CleoAK
(Post 3284208)
Do you think that subconsciously I could be setting myself up for failure? Long answer Only if you fail to recognize the AV. |
Originally Posted by UofI2008
(Post 3283734)
I really like this. Did this to my beast the other day. It's amazing what you can do if you apply these principles even when the beast is pretty quite and not strong in his attempts. I could walk into a liquor store and not have a problem now. I don't drink, ever. Period. No questions, I just don't. |
Hey guys, Okay, so I'm happily reading "Rational Recovery: The New Cure." Got a question:
Originally Posted by Rational Recovery:TNC --pg 41 "When you doubt AVRT you are only doubting yourself and your own ability to quit your addiction, right now and for all time." I had to fully believe or I risked a relapse I was told -- well, I discovered a way around my having to be "fully believing" that my HP had to be a literal GOD. I wont get into that right now, but the above quote reminds me of those days. Question: Why and how is a doubt in AVRT the same as a doubt in myself? I'll continue reading of course, and I may find the answer in the book itself, but thought I would share this because it reminds me of the BB Thumpers, LOL. :) Cheers! |
Thanks for the responses TU. I have ordered the book. I wish they did the ebook. I like instant things! I think for someone who is so used to other methods of thinking about this, the I will never drink again mindset is fearful and scary to think about at first, especially in regards to failure. For me I like the absolute of it. However it is easy to have those niggling doubts that ask why this time is different. I have been told so many times that relapse is part of the road to recovery. Its definitely a different way of thinking. |
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
(Post 3284281)
Question: Why and how is a doubt in AVRT the same as a doubt in myself? AVRT is patterned after the Addictive Voice itself which is ruthless and unforgiving in order to maintain the addiction effectively matching the Addictive Voice point for point. As such, AVRT is also ruthless and unforgiving towards anything that sustains the addiction. Self-doubt in one's ability to beat the addiction necessarily helps to maintain it. It also obviously suggests future drinking/using, which, by definition, is AV.
Originally Posted by "Rational Recovery: TNC" (©) by Jack Trimpey, Page 128 AVRT is a voracious mind-set that devours anything that poses as a condition of lifetime abstinence... |
Originally Posted by CleoAK
(Post 3284342)
I have ordered the book. I wish they did the ebook. I like instant things!
Originally Posted by CleoAK
(Post 3284342)
I think for someone who is so used to other methods of thinking about this, the I will never drink again mindset is fearful and scary to think about at first, especially in regards to failure.
Originally Posted by CleoAK
(Post 3284342)
For me I like the absolute of it. However it is easy to have those niggling doubts that ask why this time is different. I have been told so many times that relapse is part of the road to recovery. Its definitely a different way of thinking. |
Thought I'd check in... It's interesting I havent been noticing beast activity much recently, seems to be getting less and less since having made the big plan- ACE? Anyhow of course we should not get complacent and be ready for beast attacks with the AVRT militia waiting in the wing but it's definitely noticeably less recently. I'm thinking though its like if your enemy knew you were heavily fortified they wouldn't bother attacking after a while. |
I_am_A, Keep in mind that recognition allways follows an incident of Beast activity. This means that AVRT is passive, and does not require defensive manuevering. You can think of AVRT as a Chess game, where the Beast plays white, and makes the first move. You play black, but instead of countering with another move, you simply pull the game board out from under the Beast, and refuse to play. Of course, the Beast will go back and set the game board up again, hoping that you'll play at a later time. What you are experiencing is not uncommon. The Beast has taken a beating from your Big Plan and your subsequent refusals to play the game. You can bet that It is busy setting up the chess pieces again, though, so to speak. If you want though, you can play dirty and attack your Beast while it's down. Pull up some YouTube videos of movie scenes where someone is having a blast getting high on your favorite stuff. The Beast probably won't be able to resist getting excited and piping up. When it does, switch into your right mind, re-affirm your Big Plan, drive the Beast into the ground, kick it in the ribs, and stomp on its head with both feet. |
Originally Posted by CleoAK One told me that if I put myself in a situation where there is alcohol that I am deliberately putting myself in a situation where I can relapse I suppose it's a possible theory raised in a clinical setting....as far as accepting it as fact...um, no. I don't drink. I am around alcohol and people drinking it quite often. I have no desire to drink. If I ever have a passing thought, it's just that....a weird, out-of-the-blue thought that requires no action, reaction, examination, dwelling, etc. It is what it is. It came, it went. IamA, I have no working knowledge of chess, but I agree with TU about not engaging with the AV. I often use a tennis analogy. If I stop lobbing the ball back, just put my racket down and walk away, the game is over. |
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