Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 3
 

This is part 3 of an ongoing thread for discussion on the method of Rational Recovery®, called Addictive Voice Recognition Technique®, or AVRT®, which is described in detail in the following book:

The first and second parts of this thread are available here:

Rational Recovery #1

Rational Recovery #2



NOTE:

Rational Recovery®, Addictive Voice Recognition Technique®, AVRT®, and Beast® are proprietary service marks registered by the United States Patent and Trademark Office and owned by Rational Recovery Systems, Inc.

Ever since I decided to drink again I have been thinking a great deal about my past experience with alcohol and I realized that I essentially did AVRT during a period of almost 11 years of abstinence. I tried a popular program at the beginning, realized it was not going to work for me and did a Big Plan without even realizing it. However, my beast must have been far tamer and weaker then as I did not hear its voice often. It was almost effortless to remain abstinent and even the thought of drinking became abhorrent. Sadly, I did drink again and have been doing so off and on for the past 6 years. Does ones beast grow stronger and more emboldened the more and longer one drinks? As I said in a previous post I was recently abstinent for 30 days and it was almost too easy. I didn't count time and that was very freeing. I only figured out it had been 30 days when I drank again and looked back in my planner. On October 29th I wrote BIG PLAN. I think that it was important enough to note in my planner. Haven't had a drink in several days and the beast is pitching a fit. I don't know if that's because I said "Never" and then reneged so it therefore sees a weakness or if it's because it knows I gained some more valuable intel about how it operates and is royally pissed. How does one know? Or, is my even wondering "beast" activity that needs to be shut down?

You cannot "shut down" Beast activity, any more than you could shut down your sex drive. You can be sure that the Beast will be working overtime to inject doubt on account of your drinking via the Addictive Voice, though, building a case of incompetence against you. It is just doing its job, which is to try and get you to drink again. You may want to read the book again. In my experience, the Beast will actually be adding its two cents as you read it the first time around. Once you make your Big Plan, set your confidence level arbitrarily at 100% and recognize all self-doubt as the AV itself.

I stumbled across a site which is about harm reduction HAMS, using moderation and days of abstinence. They have a page on using AVRT for days of abstinence. This wouldn't work for me, but others may be interested. For me, moderation is a form of torture.

God and AVRT trimpey quote
 

"To seek God while in the grip of addiction is absurd; addicted people cannot conceive of a power higher than their own addiction, which cements them to their seats for life".

I can't post the link to the above,(not enough posts) but it's in frequently asked questions on trimpey's site.

Even though i used avrt along with other methods to help me get sober(as mentioned in previous post) the above post from trimpey strikes me as both arrogant and disrespectful, i believe in a "god" not organised religion or anything like that, and i know that i had help from my belief, the god i believe in gave me choice, i choose not to drink for the rest of my life.

It's a shame that the only alternatives to a/a that i can see on the net are secular as there are lots of people who don't want to go to a/a who do believe in a god

And there are lots of people in AA who don't believe in God and they have made the programme work for them!! I believe in a higher power, but it didn't work for me.

I think there may be some kind of evolution going on. For years, AA was the only way that worked with the knowledge we had. Now we understand more about the way the brain works, we have come up with different forms of recovery, like AVRT.

I really believe there is space for both. I think they suit different types of people.

I don't know exactly what Trimpey meant, as he does apparently believe in God himself, though I don't know his religion. If I look at the statement baldly, I'd have to disagree with him. I myself believe very much in God (Christian, church on Sundays, active in Church in several ways) and have been this way for the whole of my adult life. I was caught off guard by my later-in-life problems with alcohol, not that I'm not owning to it (as though it struck me by lightning or something). If you believe in God, you can't follow His will and abuse alcohol on a regular basis at the same time. However, I do believe that anyone can turn to Him at any time in repentance, can ask for His help at any time. I also believe that those who have an active faith ultimately do not want to bear the anguish of separating themselves from Him by choosing to continue their soul-destroying addiction. It's the task of the Christian to recognize and face his/her own sins and weaknesses and to turn away from them to Christ, who heals one of every infirmity and brings that person in union with Him. I'm not proselitizing--I'm just saying how AVRT works beautifully with believers. To turn away from the AV (which is our aninimal-like or worse-than-the-animals-like base brains of self-indulgence, our weaknesses, wrong habits, the evil one), turning to God, keeping God in the forefront and in our hearts as much as possible, as in "I can do all things in Christ who strenghthens me," with the goal of saying with St. Paul "It is not I who live, but Christ who lives in me." This may sound like AA and AVRT combined. I don't know about AA as I've never tried it, but I know that AVRT goes very well with my faith. I know we can't discuss AA in this thread, and there's no reason to. AVRT stands alone just fine. I can't agree with Trimpey about taunting or testing the AV, because that runs counter to my faith if I see that as taunting the devil, whom I believe could shred us to pieces if God allowed it. Again, I'm just explaining how AVRT works for me, how it can work for believers.

We have to follow that which helps us to defeat drug and alcohol addiction, and I've lived most of my life already to realize we don't have to follow a method down to the last iota if one or more aspects of it doesn't work for us. There's self-knowledge, balance, growth, the dynamic aspect of maturity and time in each of our lives. We can follow the method that works for us now, whatever it is. And whatever the method or tools that do work for us, we ultimately follow these according to our conscience, reasoning, free will, and beliefs or paradigms. It may mean that whatever the preferred method is, there may be some aspects of it which you don't agree with or doesn't work for you, and that's OK, as long as you proceed honestly with what does work for you.

You apparently did not read further down that same FAQ page, which has a heading titled "Is Rational Recovery against God and religion?" Trimpey is referring to the suggestion that one's own native, pre-existing beliefs about God and religion are insufficient to overcome addictions, and that they need to change in order to recover. If I were to post certain excerpts from the Journal of Rational Recovery on here, you might mistake this for a "Christians in Recovery" forum.

I agree with him in that if God was enough then recovery would only be for atheists.

If you're Christian, for example, the Bible condemns drunkenness as a sin so when people are telling you you are powerless and have a disease, something doesn't sit right.

Whatever your religious persuasion I doubt your God wants you to sit around drinking all day, every day. AVRT gets you to the point where you are no longer living the immoral life of someone who abuses their body and their friends and family via alcohol. Morality is something atheists, agnostics and religious people have in common. AVRT will work just as well for all three.

I think the FAQ is saying that a) Rational Recovery does not care what your belief system is and b) you should not think that 'finding God' is a treatment to addiction.

I have a question regarding telling others about AVRT.

The book clearly states that your Big Plan is no one else's business but your own. However, it seems if you go on the face-to-face course in the US you are advised to bring a family member along.

So:

1. Would you tell an addicted friend about AVRT if it meant disclosing the fact you were formerly addicted? (Assuming they didn't know of course—and you were uncomfortable with them knowing)
2. Would you tell your spouse, partner or immediate family member about your Big Plan?

For me, no one knows anything at all. I managed to hide this and get it nipped in the bud years before things got ugly—and I count myself very lucky. Not even my spouse knows and I plan to keep it that way.

However, if a friend got addicted I would feel compelled to help them with this but I would have to find a way of doing it that didn't get me into trouble. Unfortunately, with commitments, etc I have in life it would be detrimental to me to admit I got help for drinking.

I'd probably say, 'I know someone who really raved about this book' and buy them a copy.

This is possibly a bit of an odd point but I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

Did anyone ever take the quiz on the RR site? "Test Your AVRT IQ"? I took it and got a 57% and was told I have recovery group disorder still. lol Back to the book for me; I figure I'm due for a re-read anyway since now I have a much clearer head.

I can't remember what I got but it was lower than that—and I thought I knew what I was talking about! Plus, I've never attended a recovery group meeting (unless posting here counts).

I know, I didn't realise that until I got it wrong!

Jack Trimpey does believe in God. He says so in his book!!

Off to the work Christmas do tonight. Looking forward to enjoying good food, good company (I work with nice people!) and not fretting about getting home to have a proper drinking session. The Beast is pleading, begging to be allowed one, just one glass of wine with dinner. Just a little something!

I like that thing you said TU. How the beast can drive a truck through a pinhole. It is so true. You have to be 100%.

After I asked about it on here, I sent an email on the RR site. Trimpey's not all that bad...is it really him that sends the emails? If it is, that's pretty cool. His response also included this link from NIAAA which states about 75% of people recover independently:

NIAAA Spectrum - Alcohol Research News - Alcoholism Isn

I have read this article before and the beast always spots the bit about how half the recovered drinkers drink normally again.

There's been some interesting posts in this thread, and I don't believe in a 'Magic Man Who Lives In The Sky' type of Higher Power concept; I'm more of a realist, though I do believe in rational higher powers (such as alcohol was a kind of higher power to me).

However, I'm a firm believer in A.A. and the 12 Steps; it's a very powerful process; so for me, I just do 'em without the 'Magic Man' concept of God, and it works fine. I sponsor guys, I've a glut of them at the moment, all either approaching or just starting to work on their Step 4.

When I sponsor others, I explain that I don't bore them with my concept of a higher power, and I like to let them have an experience with their own.

Step 2 is a process (Came to believe; not 'Believe right now'), and Step 3 is no more than a firm commitment to do steps 4 through to 12.

However, 'the Beast within' from AVRT is a concept, just like the God concept; I believe each are no more than mere tools, so I think even in this post there's similarities to how people get sober using different techniques.

You lost me at Step 2.

Just ignore this step; it's a process; you do not have to believe in anything. Even the Big Book just suggests that we be willing to believe. Or just use Group Of Drunks for G.O.D.

The power in the process is the inventory, discussing it, and making amends; it's an age old process that works. No-one need believe in any 'woo woo' stuff to do that.

Clancy I does a very good talk where he explains how the first three steps have kept many people out of A.A. and/or doing the program, and he explains how he and others have done this program without the concept of a Magical Higher Power, with great success.

That's why I'm a fan of secular 12 Steps; but I'm also a fan of regular 12 Steps too; both work, but the secret isn't in the belief or non belief of a Higher Power concept, but in the action parts of the steps.

I just think that 12 steps is 11 too many.

The goal of ALL recovery methods is to stop drinking (or drugs, or gambling, or whatever). The prospect of all those steps and all those meetings kept me from quitting drinking for a LONG time, until I realized all I needed was ONE step.

I am a minimalist, and not just in my recovery method. I realize that many people benefit from group therapy. But I do believe there are a silent majority of us who do better without it.

The thing about this particular thread is to share how the AVRT method is effective for those of us here, or to find out about how it works. The minute it devolves into a debate over 12 step programs, the thread has lost its purpose.

FT

I like to use both methods as I believe they cross over, there is lots of practical thinking in aa, not just higher power. Personally, for me it has to be a total change of lifestyle and people I mix with. If I go out with old drinking mates I will surely drink,if I hang around with peeps that don't drink I will not drink. Sometimes this means having to stay in on my own which can be a bit hard, but not as hard as the alternative.

This thread is not the best place to discuss the merits of the 12-Steps. The first step effectively requires one to declare that they are powerless over the desire for alcohol (ie, the Beast). It should go without saying that the AVRT paradigm cannot and does not assume that at all.

I kind of agree with Lillyknitting. AVRT does a great job in dealing with the mental aspects of not drinking, but not so much the practical. The AA steps (whether religious or secular) would never work for me, but I do need to create an atmosphere for myself to keep me from drinking. For example, if I had booked a trip to Cabo before I stopped drinking 10 days ago, but have now decided to go since I have emphatically stated to never drink again, it would put me in a place that I associate with non-stop drinking. I would be at war with the the beast the entire time, instead of staying home and just fighting minor battles with the beast periodically.

Now I am not saying that I could never go to Cabo and not drink, but since I am only 10 days into this, I am trying to change my environment to make it condusive with non-drinking.

I'm not going to advise you on vacations, but the key to AVRT is the separation of your true self from the Beast. If you have made a decision to never drink again and never change your mind, then you no longer drink. Furthermore, since the desire for alcohol is not you, but the Beast, you don't even want to drink. In the example you gave, your Beast would be put in a place that IT associates with non-stop drinking. It might take a bit of practice to grasp this separation and put it into practice, which is what the exercises in the book are for, but once you do, there are no more battles.

Thanks TU for your response. It makes sense. I need to get to the point where I do not "want" to drink. I have already reached this stage with eating meat, so why can't I do it with alcohol? I quit eating meat last year after I could not longer justify the treatment of animals on factory farms. The repulsion and anger built up over time and I can honestly say that I will never eat meat again. I can even go to any fast food or fancy restaurant and have no desire to order a meat dish and this is after eating meat at almost every meal for 44 years.

I need to apply the same way of thinking to drinking now which should be easier since I have only been drinking regularly for 30 years. Are the exercises you mentioned only in "The New Cure...?" If so, I need to buy that book.

Yes, and I definitely recommend reading the book, since it is fairly comprehensive. You can get a used copy of it on Amazon or Half.com for about $5.

I'm not sure I understand why there is a need to eliminate the "I want to drink" thing.

I am a non-drinker. I am a non-opiate-user. Does that mean I don't "want" to drink or use drugs? Hell no.

I want to go kill my boss, too. But I don't.

I want to do a LOT of things I choose not to do. I'd like that cool ring in the jewelry store, but I'm sure not going to lift it. I want to eat about 10,000 calories a day, because I LOVE TO EAT. But I'm not gonna do it.

You could go on and on. Actually, I really really really "want" to take opiates again, because I felt pretty fantastic for part of the time I was taking them. Drinking I don't think much about until I see others having a great time wine-tasting, or trying out new cocktail recipes, etc. Looks fun. Yeah, I'd like to do that.

But I don't.

Why? NOT because I don't "want" to. I don't second guess the WHY I don't drink or use drugs. I am a simply a non-drinker and a non-opiate-user. That takes all the questions and self-doubt out of the equation.

Just shut down the chatter and make a decision about WHO you are. Yes, I am talking identity here. "Practicing" non-drinkers and non-substance-abusers may need to take a more "active" stance about that identity than those who never WERE those things in the past. I know I did. You just "practice" until you don't even think about it anymore.

At some point, you should be able to go anywhere and do anything you would have done while drinking. Defining yourself as a non-drinker and living your life that way is LESS not MORE complicated. No decisions. No hassle. No worry. You just do it.

FT

There is no way to eliminate the desire to drink, but the idea is to consider it ego-alien, not you, thereby neutralizing it. I previously mentioned this line of thinking here:

Addictive desire is not me

FT--I get what you are saying about identifying as a non-drinker. I just have to adjust the sterotype I have of non-drinkers since I am one now.

What amazed me when I quit drinking was how many of us there are.

I never even noticed them before, just like no one notices I am not drinking either. It's not a pronouncement, it takes no explanation, except maybe to people are used to seeing you drinking. Even then, it's just you now. You're still you.

Ft