I have been going back over the posts Do you all know what really great insightfull Humans you all are.. my heart just swells with the Pride in each of you and your Efforts and Lives and Shortfalls for you are the fiber of Humans and have so much to deal with and yet just keep on Keepin on as they use to say.. Prayers to all and love and hopes that we can all keep coming here even just for a minute.. ardith ann richter milwaukee wisconsi.. ok I need a tissue and coffee...

I would say It is not a failure.
I knew well what should happen but I drank. This was a mistake provoked by the mental defect. However I ask myself if I really did all possible to resist this provocation?

Hey..you did what you wanted to..like all of us. alcoholic or not. drinking heavy is a rational choice. that is my belief..unpopular as it may be..no need to spin the wheels of imaginary psychology and science.. give yourself a break

Thanks Iggy.
If one can drink when he wants to and can reject when he does not want - it is not my case.

Dinking is not a sin. Being drunk, according to scripture is indeed sinful = Ephesians 5:18

However, we are all sinners. Even your brother......The good news is that when we change ( repent ) redemption is the gift!

I do love religious zealots. Have no idea if this fits with your bro, but let he who is without sin..... Well, you know the rest of the story.

peace

My view of it. I think there is a difference between good/bad morality per se and the ability to make good/bad decisions. Active addiction disrupts our decision making ability and when we continue engaging in the cycle of addiction and compulsion as a habit, in turn it leads to making more and more poor decisions that drive us into actions that look irresponsible and immoral (and they are, on an objective scale). But the origin of these actions, the root cause is not poor morals. I don't think there is any association between who becomes addicted or is vulnerable to developing addictions, and default morality. Unfortunately addiction tends to shift our moral compass, but working on this by itself will never make us quit from the addictive behavior. It starts with changing the decision to take a drink/drug, and continues with changing the habit. The process of recovery (after quitting) is what can fix our morals down the road.

It was probably pretty moral of me to not subject the world to anymore of my drinking!! ;)

But as to alcoholism being a lack of morals, I think not!! :)

I consider myself an alcoholic with high moral standards.

I expect that your brother reads the Bible. I have another Big Book he may care to read in which it is explained far better than I ever could.
G:)

I think he has absolutely no idea WTF he is talking about.

I also think that I would avoid anything resembling a discussion about this topic with him ever.

I overheard 2 people arguing as to whether alcoholism is a disease or not and the one person said, "If tuberculosis came in a shot glass would anyone drink it?"
That got me to thinking.

Does the CDC classify alcoholism as a disease? Anyone know?

the American Medical Association does..I don't think the cdc classifies diseases..they are for disease outbreak protocol

the AMA is political and not a reliable reference as far as I'm concerned

I don't think we need to define anything, including alcoholism, from one particular perspective. For some people (myself included to a certain point) it is a moral failure. For others, it's a disease. There's probably a million other totally valid definitions. The only problem arises when we try to define alcoholism for someone else.

yeah we leave that up to the experts lol

Totally :=]

Yep, there it is. I think for people who haven't experienced addiction, what they see is the way alcoholics and addicts end up behaving, and those are often terrible. I have a friend whose mother, when he was a child, used to put him in the kiddie seat on her bicycle and ride drunk on a busy highway to get to the liquor store for more alcohol. Multiple times a week. They're both lucky they weren't killed. Being an alcoholic doesn't change the fact that her choices were extremely dangerous and yeah, immoral.

In my case, I've lied to people dear to me, over and over again. I've not been there when people needed me. I've messed up at work. It's not my fault that I'm an alcoholic but the things I've done are certainly moral failings that I'm trying to take responsibility for. If I would betray people's trust to protect my alcoholism, would I do the same in order to get a promotion or some other personal gain? I don't think so, I certainly hope not, but I need to be aware that there is that streak in me that I need to be vigilant against.

I never understood why or how people can honestly believe that alcohol addiction and other-drug addictions are separate from eachother , or how alcoholism is a disease and drug addiction is a "choice". People who drink know what they are getting into just as people who use drugs do, yet neither can stop on will power

Our problem is a DISEASE(addiction,alcoholism, whatever you wanna call it) NOT a specific substance. Chemicals are but a symptom.

This is a tough one... I'd say first an understanding of the exact meaning of "moral failure" needs to be reached...

B

Exactly where to draw the line regarding the who, when and what of moral accountability is really tricky.

Is personal responsibility necessary for morality? Most people think it is. Can you hold an alcoholic responsible for their actions? I think for most people they'd have to decide that on a case by case basis.

the thing that made sense to me was the part about jay walkers in the big book,

what are wrong with people who enjoy jay walking ? why do they get there kicks out of trying to get run over ?
dont these people know they can be killed by doing this ?
yet they do it time and time again, they put everyone who loves them through hell as they can not stop trying to dodge traffic

they end up in hospitals after getting knocked down and swear they will stop doing it only to find themselves doing it again
sadly many die from it and never find a cure

what is wrong with these people ?
surely there insane to do such things ?

to me alcoholics have an insanity that even though they might know what damage it will cause for some reason its not enough to block out that hunger for the drink, the thinking is obsessed by it all

they try everything they can think of to try to not get drunk and cause damage yet no matter what they try it never works, the end result ends up in hurt and pain and fear along with guilt and shame and remorse

they give up drinking for a while as they know it doesnt work for them and they in all honesty dont want to hurt anyone yet someday soon they end up doing it again and again
to me its insanity, alcoholics are wired up differently than most normal folk who can drink and not end up in trouble

alcoholics are more like the jay walker so why can people except jay walkers are clearly nuts and yet for some reason alcholics are just people who have a choice but dont use it ?
the jay walker has the choice to not run out infront of a bus but what makes him do it anyway ?

but like i said before when you meet people who are stuck in there views if they will not listen then there is no point in spoliing your own day just because someone doesnt agree with you or not

its taken me many years to even come to see that in myself when it comes to having agruments as i MUST BE RIGHT, I MUST HAVE THE LAST WORD, today its ok for everyone else to be right it just doesnt matter if people think i am the worse person in the world or not
i will still try to help them if they ever needed it.