Believe me, I have tried this and he persists anyway. I think he loves to debate even if the other party agrees or is silent. Everyone is entitled to HIS opinion!

Hi ArtFriend.
Religious people normally understand what is passion and what is a sin.
They know very well "The return of an Unclean Spirit" parable (Matthew 12:43) which can tell a lot about passions and about the alcoholism.
It is sad that your brother acts this way.

In my opinion it is not a disease but a sufferinng. This suffering has both moral and clinical reasons.
If you are doing some real actions to get rid of this horrible passion you wil succeed. To blame is not a good support. Religious person can do a lot to help you.
Maybe it is more because he is a brother?

Anyway I wish you any success in your recovery.

Oil and water, day and night, Superman and kryptonite, bugs bunny and elmer fudd... you get the picture.

definition of alcoholism is certainly not clear..not in the least.

One definition is that alcoholism is a spiritual malady and indeed a moral failing.

Is that the one that is bugging you?

I can give you 100 other options for definitions

my view is that its a nonsense word made with nonsense intentions. not scientific in the least

There are many good people on SR which means, among much else, that drinking itself is not a failure of morality. In my case, I became increasingly willing to engage in bad behaviors and bad faith in order to protect my alcoholism. Therein lies the stigma.

I don't waste time arguing with people who are invested in holding onto extreme positions based on faith alone; they tend to create their own special brand of pain and suffering, often a smoldering version of terror, and they seek to lay blame rather than offer solutions.

Faith without doubt is nothing more than fanaticism (and/or fearful compliance) and, taken to the extreme, is potentially lethal.

It seems that he has a passion too. It may be a kind of self-deluding.
Do not judge ... Someone said.

Who cares what he thinks. Take care what you think and how you deal.

Bunnez

I don't know about the alcoholism itself, but definitely some of the behavior that you see that commonly comes with it.

No. But it does push people to do things that they would consider reprehensible if they were not drunk or desperate.

I have a body and a brain that metabolizes alcohol differently than most of the population. I have a different brain chemistry. Others have this malady as well. Something happens different to me when I ingest alcohol. It is no fault of my own and has nothing to do with my morals. Unfortunately, as this condition does affect my brain when active, one can make choices that do affect morality. Hence the mental suffering and anguish. I would never debate anyone that is completely ignorant of the disease of alcoholism.

Good point, hopeful. Whether or not my use was immoral, I know plenty of the things I did to keep it going were:)

just my biased observations: -people that strike me as having impeccable morals usually are not very judgmental. -those throwing stones, and talking as if they could never have a failing often end up having several.
Saints among us are few. ive met more than a few substance abusers that don't have a much hate in them. ive also bumped into a few clean since birth folks I wouldn't trust to walk my dog.

If I drink now, after being sober for a few years, knowing full well how it affects me and the likely outcomes, I would see it as an ethical failing on my part.

see...there is definition # 57

What is your point Iggy24? You don't think there is a clear definition of alcoholism. That is your prerogative. I and many others think there IS a clear definition.

I wouldn't be able to tolerate a person like your brother in my life. Sounds like his self-righteousness is out of control.

You know ArtFriend when alcohol enters my body all moral issues get out of my reality. Being an alcoholic I play on different field with different rules.
But when I relapsed after relatively long sobriety period I was sure that there was a moral component. I mean that I was wasting the time given me for some efforts.

When I get back to sober life I find my moral tasks waiting. I always try not to think how guilty I am. I think what I did not do and what I should do.

So my answer is that while alcoholism remains a disease there is some moral constituent when in sobriety I take "the first drink".

back when I was in college in the 1960's there was a lot of drinking and Drugs smoking and well that was a time of young people trying to find the truth.. I am the oldest of 5 Daughters and the Oldest GrandDaughter Oldest GreatGrandDaughter and Oldest in First Born of the Great Great Grand Kids.. I had a lot riding now me for Moral behavior and Family Behavior.. the Town and Families all watched my every move... no kidding.. when I went to college in Art for Education of k-6 grade my Prof's at begining of each class for a month made everyone raise their hand and swear never to talk to Townies or people in College that they ran into about me or the class's dance around the subject its none of thier business what we do in here or how she is doing.. this is her life and if you want to pass this class Swear... I had the best friends.. some of which refrianed from doing something around me that they though would upset me... but I got to grow... never did drugs saw to much in the hospital I worked in that was the negitive of that problem.. but drinking I did beer and wine with moral understanding that I had to walk home by myself or with a friend safely.. the only time I got sick Pop thought I had over done the beer laughted all night while I was sick.. I had food posioning yep... in the hospital with 3 others for a couple of days...
Moral or Family Problems.. I read in college on DNA really loved that , and so much was new on the thoughts and how comes.. as a Farm Family Daughter knew of the possiblities of a White Hefer and a Black Bull an d combinations of the off spring.. so in the computer classes and Science class took it further ... why how come and whatever... Drinking has gone on before the time of Christ.. so the family DNA is stuck with it and terrible to say but a child born of a none drinking couple can end up with us on this page even if they were raised to never touch the stuff.. true true true.. and then a couple that is a terrible drinking problem can have an off spring that will never drink a drop.. not because of Mom and Dad just because of the DNA programing.. Drugs on the other hand are a big hard story and that can be set off because of the Dentist the Doctor a Shot for the good a Cough Surpe or an asprin... and then its all down hill..
my Hubby and family are a great study in DNA I can go back to Saxon England and Germany in their line to thee year 645 in church records. yep and have .. why is Ed's tummy and mind and body so screwed up.. because kids .. and Beans.. the family from that recorded time to now has passed that bad DNA down and all around.. his Pop remembers an Aunt Beth.. she was a good example of Ed today.. I found her autopsy report.. from 1965, Beth was 56 when she died in the hospital.. my Daughter and I have read that report together and sorted it out.. she had a terrible tummy drank like a fish the hard stuff and did coke.. well from the 40's on it was a social thing to do.. to calm her tummy they had to use Morphine.. we believe that killed her on the size of doses they had to use... have some great photos of that lovely lady... she had 9 children and 14 Grand kids.. 90% were dead by 40 years of age health drinking and drugs... Ed remembers one...
Sorry .. about going on so... Moral there is no Moral issue to drink .. the world as we know it today does and some countries the children drink gin for breakfast yet today.. but that is what they have done for 4000 years..
history repeats its self so much.. we can only hold on to this little bit of what we each think is the none crazy bit of life.. here at home as we step out of the yard or in our cars.... we can as my GreatGrand Dad Sam said once stay out of the race to die keep out of your Grandma's eye and never have it on your breath for the important things of life.. Loved him so very much... Sam was 99 when he slipped on the kitchen floor and broke a rib that did his lung in ... I howled to the wind and rain in a huge field for days.. no one could touch me for care... drink.. only when I want to get off this nut case car ride... and sleep in dark silent warm peace for 12 hours... and at 64 I know that is no good either..
So Beans and I use that with great effection for you all.. Moral or Faith wise.. what is your small Chailse of Christ.. to what do you Pledge to do each day it is your business and no one else's Life you got to get out there and Live it for this is the only chance you have.. Love Ardy a Mom a Lady Clown a Blue Star and just a silly old Bean...

I am atheist, so my moral compass is not based on religious concepts, rather what drives my sense of morality is the greater good and doing no harm. Drinking separates me from my family, it makes me less effective to my students, it creates distance all around. My drinking results in harm to varying degrees, to myself, my children, my loved ones, and ripples out to the children I teach and their families.

If I choose to drink, I am going against what I know to be morally right in my life, so yes it would indeed be a moral failing for me.

no. it is not a moral failure.