I totally agree that relapses aren't harmless and obviously, the goal is to not have them. But the reality is, there will be a lot of people who do and I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all way of handling them. There are people like me who do a pretty good job feeling like crap all on my own, thank you very much. So what I need from others is understanding and support because piling on shame and guilt after I've already helped myself to plenty of it doesn't help me. At all. In fact, it makes it worse. So when I post here, I do have a tendency to come at people from my pov, which is to be understanding. Whenever I see someone beating themselves up, I'm not going to chastise them some more. However, I do know people in my life that have a very cavalier attitude about making the same mistakes over and over (and I'm not necessarily talking about alcohol) and for those people, I think "tough love" is probably a better route to go because they're not taking it seriously enough. I just think it's important to give people whatever would help them the most, and that can be very different from one person to the next.

My personal point of view is that "understanding" of the relapser should be the fallback position in any event, up to but NOT including where it harms children. Unfortunately, the age range of alcoholics does not discriminate, and MANY alcoholics have young children, and many more have children who are adults now who have been damaged by alcoholic parents. Many in the latter group are now alcoholics themselves.

I err on the side of protecting the children in all of my posts here on SR. My views are not always popular, but here I go. Like it or not, you can NOT hide your drinking behaviors from your children, no matter how clever you think you are in hiding them. Alcoholism is a poor coping skill, and children learn their coping skills from what they see around them. No matter how good or bad a child's environment is, they view it as "normal."

In my opinion, I see far too many people behaving as though their behavior is hurting no one but themselves. Yes, I have sympathy for that, but NOT when it affects the life of a child.

I agree, FT.

Given the depth of denial that many of us experience during active alcoholism, I don't think that any of us are good at evaluating who we do and don't hurt while we're drinking. It has also been demonstrated on SR several times that we are not the best judges of what will make us "happy" or what we need to do in order heal during our active alcoholism, despite the many frivolous, gratuitous and self-destructive claims that "I know myself better than anyone else." (You generally don't need to wait very long to see such comments here as they seem to be something of a misbegotten tradition on SR, and it would only be surprising to me if they ceased.) But, really? If I'm an expert on who I'm hurting while I'm drinking, and adept at judging what will "work" for me, then why is support from other people and the sharing of experiences from people who've achieved sobriety so crucial in order to recover?

It's easy to dismiss comments that are contrary to my drunken opinions (if only because they bruise my fractured ego), and we see this here in profusion as well, with the OP sometimes attacking those who offer up suggestions that the OP doesn't like (i.e., threatens their drinking career, or is merely makes them feel "uncomfortable). In my experience, people who are able to navigate through and honestly evaluate suggestions that conflict with opinions born of their own drunkenness are much more likely to achieve sobriety than otherwise.

I think it's important to be balanced regarding relapses. When I relapsed the first time, I was extremely hard on myself, the result? More drinking. Why not I thought, I'm a useless waste of space with no willpower, I may as well drowned myself in booze as it's all I deserve.

That way of thinking is what can happen when you beat yourself up, and it can destroy you.

On the other hand, if you think of relapses as nothing, why not do it again if it's not a big deal?

So, after relapse you kind of have to treat yourself like a loving but strict parent would. Understand that what you did was absolutely wrong, that it was a big deal and you comprehend the real gravity of the situation.

But tomorrow is another day. Pick yourself up and vow to be better.

I agree FT, and so does the law. Endangering minor children the way I did because I was drunk and/or passed out is not only morally wrong for the reasons you outlined, it is also against the law. Unfortunately, I think that only the severest physical abuse is ever addressed, leaving scores of damaged children who are never detected because the wounds aren't on the outside.

The good news is, if one does take responsibility, those relationships can be mended, and those wounds healed. It takes time and effort, but it can be done If one takes responsibility.

To me, that means no minimizing of my behavior. No justifications, just action. It was difficult to take a good hard look, but it was necessary for me.

And to be honest, some of us were threatened with our children being taken by the other parent or by the courts, some actually lost their children that way. For me personally, that's when sh*t got real.

"The location of the dividing line between the concepts of shame, guilt, and embarrassment is not fully standardized." (Wiki)

But yes EndGame, I do see your distinction.

I hope that you didn't think that the article was meant for you specifically, soberlicious. I think it may be helpful to explore the distinction between 'guilt' and 'shame', not only for recovering alcoholics, but for anyone who is tortured by exaggerated and unnecessary emotional self-harm.

No, I didn't think it was meant specifically for me. I just posted in case others use the terms interchangeably. I do see the distinction you're making. Shame is more about the whole self, guilt is more about the behavior-separate from the self. In any event, I was deeply ashamed of the person I had become, capable of those behaviors. It was a driving force for change for me, maybe not so much for everyone though.

Very interesting, thought-provoking article.

I really like to think about this guilt vs shame pairing and the potential consequences. Here is how I think about it, it's not from any article or textbook, just my mind.

I think guilt vs shame is related to what is so often discussed on this board (and elsewhere regarding recovery): self-esteem/acceptance/being able to love ourselves vs self-hate/rejection.

Guilt does not imply that the person who feels guilty dislikes or rejects themselves (the "self"), at all. It may actually be the opposite, as the guilt often arises from high standards and values, but the person did something that violates these values and so feels bad about the action. This is why, in my opinion, guilt can be a powerful motivator for constructive action and behavior modification, because it drives us to correct the mistake and do it differently/better next time. The source of the "right action" in this case is there in the core of the person's intact internal value system and belief that s/he carries this source. So s/he only needs to resolve a dissonance between value and momentary (faulty) action.

Shame implies an internal sense of self-rejection and disliking ourselves. When someone feels this way, it's hard(er) to find an internal source of value as it's been corrupted in the damaged sense of self. Consequently, it's harder to identify the right action to correct a faulty act or even faulty thought.

This is how I differentiate between guilt and shame:

Guilt: I did something wrong or bad.

Shame: I am something wrong or bad.

That gets to the core of it for me.

Yes, Jennie, you've expressed with simplicity the same concept that I overcomplicated :)

Brene Brown has some tremendous work regarding shame. Her Ted Talks are amazing. There is also a book by John Bradshaw (I think he may even be thought of as a pioneer in "shame" work) where he notes the importance of both 12 Step Recovery groups and church communities in providing compassionate forums for healing core shame.

I've lived the better part of my life with a lot of both shame and guilt as defined here, so tightly intertwined it was virtually impossible to differentiate.

Brene Brown is great, Nuudawn.

I see the distinction between shame and guilt, but often (for me), guilt led to shame. It became, "I did something bad, therefore, I am bad." The two were always linked when I was growing up.

I think we all do, it's a mix. I doubt there is a single individual who's entirely at peace with their whole self and feels it's 100% complete and integrated.
Also, I doubt there is anyone who completely rejects and dislikes every part of themselves (hmm maybe there is... must be a horrible place to be).

I think that shameful feelings probably need more and deeper self-work than guilty feelings. Maybe one of the psychologists on the forum can correct me if wrong.

Very good point! Maybe this possible progression is something important that we should stay aware of and should not let it happen. Also, sometimes shame may be born from unreasonable external criticism / abuse.

Personal guilt was my biggest motivator to quit drinking. But it had to come from me, not someone else. When I even sensed someone might be angry or thinking bad of me for drinking, I simply quit telling that person anything further and found a more understanding person to talk to. Fear of judgment keeps a lot of active alcoholics silent when they need to talk, I think.
And that could also include feeling they aren't saying the ''right'' word. Everyone's naturally going to express themselves differently and words don't mean the same thing to one person that they mean to another. Newcomers especially shouldn't have to walk on eggshells over things like that. A lot of them are already nervous about posting already.

I wonder where irrational guilt fits into these definitions? I often own and feel guilt for things I don't logically agree I should feel guilty about. For instance, my mom is now acting haughty and distant with me and I feel guilty. Logically, I know this is about her embarrassment and her need to manipulate me and feel in control, but I still feel guilt. Maybe this is from shame that I have not shed.