ash, some real great replys here,

for me, it was "Footprints"

and that led to what the core of my fears, and addictions were,

then it opened up the door to finding out,

the good that was burried deep within me...

another simple little thing,

"GOD" Good Orderly Direction, as i had lousy no direction before.

whatever you do, please keep that gratitude ash!

whatever God is, i do know what God aint!

the hell i was in, and put everyone esle through...

all good wishes ash

Ashleek -

I'm sorry , I'm at work and got a customer in ...

there *was* a point to that big honkin long post -

and that was - the Spirituality thing

happens.

We don't really have to go anywhere seeking it.

It comes... as we heal.

The fact that we can heal at all is proof we're connected to whatever *it* is.

Ashleek,

Just throwing something out there for you to think about, maybe the Christian God isn't for you? [I have no issue with Christianity I think it is a beautiful religion]

I was raised to be Christian by my parents and grandparents but it didn't feel right for me. When I was about 12 I started researching other religious and spiritual beliefs. I looked into everything until I discovered paganism and ended up becoming a pagan witch.

I go to NA and no-one there has an issue with my beliefs even though they are very different from everyone else's.

I have a beautiful relationship with the Mother Goddess and draw much strength from her and her love, I never feel alone.

So maybe you could go to your local library and do some research and see if anything resonates for you?

I believe religion is a very personal thing and we all connect with the universe differently. Whether it be Atheist, Catholic, Pagan, Hindu, or whatever.

You will find your higher power sweetie and when you do you will know what is right for you.

Much Love,

Faerie xx

Im not an AA type, but I suppose you could make yourself the "higher power" or "god", since it is you and only you that will stop your addiction, for now. Just a suggestion.

I figure that this can go one of two ways. Either I'm the most powerful being in the universe (and if that's the case, be very, very careful) or there's another being out there more powerful than I am. And as the universe has been around long before I got here, then it's safe to assume that some being beat me to it and that being is more powerful than me. I can go with this simplistic route or read Acquinas, Agustintine, St Thomas More, Martin Luther etc. I've done both actually, but somehow the more simplistic approach is easier to deal with.

Now that I accept that some power greater than I exists, I presume that this power is a good being as there is goodness in this universe. From there I make the leap of faith that this being is capable of restoring me to sanity. Note the word capable as opposed to will. I'm certainly not capable of such a feat, although I've tried many times.

And that's all step 2 really is. AA doesn't insist you believe in a diety, and in it's preamble it specifically states that AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution. Too many people get hung up needlessly on this step. I recommend that you focus on the word "capable" and move on. This step is one that
a lot of people take bit by bit. As you work through the other steps, you'll find that this isn't as big a hurdle as you thought.

Right now you need to go to meetings and get a sponsor. Trying to work through the Big Book without help is damn hard. You really need a sponsor to guide you. And try and lose the anger stuff. Anger leads to resentment and resentment leads back to the bottle. Recovery is hard enough. Don't complicate it.

I just don't know what to say! You all are such wonderful people and I did pray today and to what or who or what universe I have no idea I just prayed and I cried a little. It felt good but still really nothing.

I need to trust, I need to not be lazy in finding a higher power, this is something that has always been important to me in my life (some kind of God) but now that I am sober and older I just can't imagine a God, one that I grew up learning about. It's wierd to me that we have to "learn" about a God by others teachings. To me you should just be able to feel that God or higher power in your heart and soul and just know that we aren't alone. I know we aren't alone I just can't seem to get to that place to trust again.

I know it will take time but you all have no idea how much you have helped me! You have got me thinking in so many ways I don't know which way my brain is going right now. But this is a good thing, this is what I wanted.

The Shack, that is so funny you brought that up because not too awful long ago my social worker teacher was speaking of this book and I was wanting to read it but I was too high to care about anything but getting high and making the dean's list. So, I am going to put that on my list of things to do. I think my higher power might have sent that message to me. That was too much of a coincedence!

I ordered some books online about working the steps, Meditation and something else, gosh I can't remember now. I love to read, I read the BB in one day and a half. I just couldn't put it down no matter how aggervated I got at times.

Thank you all again so much. You have no idea what this has done for me. I was worried about controversy and maybe head butting a little and I'm glad that didn't happen. You all flooded in almost all at once and it was wonderful. I think that too happened for a reason.

I thought AA said you could make anything your higher power. I thought that was the whole basis of it, was that it is a spiritual disease. Oddly enough, although Im not an AA type, I agree with the premise that AA says one is born with the disease.

I go to AA on a regular basis! I love AA and the whole power greater than myself....I guess as a child I was taught to not take that very lightly....so that is still in the back of my mind. I couldn't be that person to just chose something and move on bc it is more important than that for me. If I am going to have a pwer greater than myself that gets me through from day to day I would have a hard time praying to M.L.K. Just my opinion (respectfully of course) if it was that easy I wouldn't have put this post up here.

Talking about 'god' or a 'higher power' is always going to be controversial, but you will find that here on this site, there are many people who will offer their experiences and almost always try and offer genuine help and advice. I find most people here very respectful of other's opinions, and I think you will too, ashleek. As well as good advice and information.

You're correct in that AA says you can make anything your higher power. I was speaking for myself and my own approach to the higher power concept. You can use whatever you want as a higher power, or nothing at all if that's your belief. AA doesn't insist on having one, it merely suggests that. I'm not sure where you're going with the spiritual disease thing. AA is a spiritual program and alcoholism is a disease. And spitituality in the AA sense is merely your personal relationship with a higher power.

I'm also not familiar with anything that AA has ever said that indicates one is born with the disease of alcoholism. Some folks may feel that way. I don't. One may have a genetic predisposition for the disease, but only alcohol causes one to actually have it. And if you're predisposed yet never drink, then I don't think you're an alcoholic. But I'm gonna leave that one to the scientists. It really has nothing to do with recovery, and recovery is purpose of SR.

Please lets not go there!

Okay so now I am curious. I don't know much about kabbalah other than Madonna wore a red braclet on her hand for this religion and it is nothing new to the world just maybe to the USA's world. So, if you know anything or practice it or have any info I think I feel like with some more research this might be it, my spiritual connection. Not awakening just a connection. We will see. PM me if you would like anyone!!

Why Kabbalah?

One who has a desire for spirituality differs from one seeking earthly and human fulfillments (i.e. the desire stages 1-to-4 outlined above). We already know how to fulfill our earthly and human needs, but when the desire for spirituality awakens, we no longer know how to soothe it.

Most people with a desire for spirituality today aren't even aware that they have it. Some of these people with a desire for spirituality might even be despising the very word "spirituality" thinking that it is something unrealistic and unrealizable. Such people feel their lives empty and purposeless, without knowing that it is due to this new, more evolved desire for spirituality awakening in them. They are unaware that this is the reason for their dissatisfaction and discontentment with life.

As children, many people ask themselves, "What am I living for?" But as the years go by, we are inundated by desires and temptations that divert us from this question, and the need to find a genuine answer withers away.

Nevertheless, at some point, the desire for spirituality awakens, and with it the questions. Those who insist on finding the answers come to Kabbalah, which was specifically designed to provide the way to their answers.

I found this and found it interesting! Who knows!!

You obviously are an AA type, and Im not. The BB and every meeting Ive ever attended started off and ended with prayer and spirituality was the foundation. In fact, its in most of the steps, and suggests strongly that alcoholism is a spiritual disease. The BB has several stories of being born with alcoholism, and the BB is the main book of AA, so Im sure youre familiar

If alcohol causes one to be alcoholic, then every person that has ever drank alcohol, would be an alcoholic. Are you asking for AA to be shot down? PM me if you ever want to talk.

I will give you my experience. Dont go into a meeting and say that you have decided that your higher power is going to be a glass of cold beer. That will make heads explode in unison from the cognitive dissonance.

:) something tells me that's exactly where you want to go.

Another vote for you to read "The Shack"...changed my life....sorry I didn't mention it in my first post!

Thanks ashleek for bringing up this topic: I just completed step 2 with my sponsor on thursday this week.
I didn't start going to AA until I'd been sober 2 months. I didn't find a sponsor until I'd been going to meetings for about 8 months. I didn't read the first part of the big book after I had purchased it....until 10 months later. It took me 7 months to complete step 2.

Alright, I think we have established I am a slow learner.....

It took me a long time to work my way through step 2 because I rejected organized religion at a very young age: while I was still in a Roman Catholic Parochial school.... that I can only describe as the school from HXXL. It was awful. If you want a good way to turn a child into a hater of organized religion, send them to the religious school I went to.
But I never rejected personal spirituality. I see a big difference between organized religion and personal spirituality. I found personal spirituality through step 2 and am very thankful for having the chance to do so and step 2 gave me the chance. I have lived most of my life without a moral compass and it feels very good to have one now. Of course, I forget to use it....eeeehhh...

Will I tell you to believe in a higher power as I percieve it? Of course not. Do I want you to accept my definition of spirituality? 'Course not.

It was a big job and rather expensive: lots of amazon books...lots of reading, learning.
My goal was to find a personal spirituality I could accept on my terms and yet still understand that my "terms" are probably somewhat superfluous in the grand scheme of things. I drew from Buddhist thought to a great extent. I read Thoreau. I read Plato. Plato didn't help, ha. But I have drawn my strength and spiritual direction from as many diverse sources as possible, and even good films were in my inventory.

but...the point is that I searched.
and, yes, I was angry the first few months of my sobriety. Very angry.

I dont go to meetings or do 12 step programs. So I am not sure if I should even post. But I know how it feels to struggle with the whole spirituality thing. It just made my brain hurt trying to figure out just what that was.
When you go into treatment they ask you what does spirituality mean to you. I had nothing. I got totally stuck.
And I still cant expalin it. But at least I have a sense of it for myself now.
And that being more of a Karma type thing. What you put in is what you get back and so on. Sorta like getr said. The universe type a deal.
I am not too sure how much I believe in a 'God'. But past experience has def showed me that what goes around comes around. When your heart is in the right place, good things will happen. Even if they do take some time.
Well, Thats all I got.

I have ordered a lot of amazon books myself!! That's so funny cause I am so interested in what other people have found. I thought about buddah. For some reason I am drawn to that and I know nothing about it!

All I know is the God I grew up with, I just don't like the thought of Hell and all that stuff. I don't believe in "living your life for a God" all that crazy Christian stuff. I know there is something out there and I just don't know what that is.

Penny gave me this website and it has a quiz on spirituality and it said I am 100% like reform Judaism. My husband laughed and said "you can't just be a Jew". I said I can believe what I want to believe and be what I want to be. It is whatever God I chose and whatever spirituality I chose.

So, thanks everyone and you can keep the posts coming if you want to.

You said it right!!!!! What you have in your heart is yours, and yours only.....whatever makes you feel "whole" is the right path to take...:hug:

Cathy

I never found the christian 'god'.....I did found life, the world and the universe...in my simple mind that is god...

edit:

not to forget buddha ofcourse...who inspired me to think and find out for myself...he is my best friend...

Kaballah is more the Hebrew mysticism.

Hi Ash.

I'm glad I didn't grow up in any particular religion based on what you and many others have said about religion in there childhood. AA was really the first place I started to see the need to take the God thing seriously in order to stay sober. "A God of your choosing" tweeked my interest and so I started looking. It has taken a few years for me, like you I wanted it now but that just didn't happen, it's been a process of spiritual growth for me. Spiritual growth is the journey for me now.

I have started calling myself a Christian now but that word means many different things to many different people. For me it's not about the religion you grew up with. AA taught me about spirituality not religion. The difference for me is Spirituality is a personal relationship with God (my higher power). Religion inserts itself between God and me as a middle man and tells me what God is....that sounds like your childhood experience and is not my definition of being a Christian today. Two more definitions for you that are mine that may help you.....may not.....Religion is about rules - Spirituality is about freedom from rules (Yes even my Christian based spirituality). I know many will disagree with that one.....the last one you may hear in AA. Religion is of man spirituality is of God.

I am not interested in religion myself but I do rely on God on a daily basis. Both AA and the church I go to are there to help me with my personal relationship with God. I don't need to go to either one to have a personal relationship with God or to grow spiritually but I enjoy the companionship of people on the same journey as I am so I go because I want to. The church I go to is very clear on this, they say themselves I don't ever need to go back to church again, they don't believe in being a middle man for me. As I said the same holds true with AA although you will find a lot of people who use the AA fellowship, the meetings, as their Higher power who will tell you continued meetings are essential.....I have seen that work for many so I'm not knocking it.

I hope that helps in some way Ash, whatever works for you is all that matters. Spiritual growth brings with it emotional growth and drinking/drugging fades away. Growth = change however you find it. Spiritual growth is a new and much better way of life for me. To live life on my own self propulsion is to put limits on what life is about.

Thanks Dean!

I think I have found that I believe in God I just don't believe in some of the things in the bible or that I have been taught. The God I grew up with is the God you fear, that you have to watch every sin you make or you will go to hell, you have to live for that God.

I know there is a God, for me that is what i believe, it's just been so hard for me lately trying to figure everything out, spirituality, God, sobriety, changes. It's a lot all at once.I know this is going to be a long road for me to completely accept that there is a higher power and have faith. I have trust issues so that doesn't help. I know it will all come with time.

I dunno, who knows! HAHAHA

You don't have to figure any of it out. To whatever extent possible, set your ideas aside so that you can have an experience with a higher power. This is the open-minded part of it. Take the actions outlined and have an experience of your own.

I know a lot of devoutly religious people that can't stay sober. They know way more about God than I do. But they can't have that experience because all their SELF gets in the way. Their 'already having it figured out' blocks their own experience.

Tricky stuff. Take precise actions, get precise results.

Keith you are right! I need to have a open mind but for some reason that is so hard for me to do. I guess cause I have that mind set of I want everything now or maybe it's because I am the type of person that likes proof of things. I don't want proof from God or anything, well I just don't know what I want. I'm just thankful for what I do have for now and my sobriety because life couldn't be much better!

I went to my therapy session today and told him that I was pissed at God, or pissed that I couldn't find God, or that I didn't know what God meant to me. And then I had an ahh ha moment.

I was raised with a Baptist God, the God fearing Gods of all Gods (in my opinion). I now know that I don't have to believe in a religious God, the man made God but the God that I know is out there. The loving God.

Another thing, my childhood has a lot to do with me not being able to turn my will over to God. Because as a child I depended on my will, I was the one that got me through hard times, I am the one who taught me what I learned, I am the one who stood up for me and Mom. I was the mother and she was the child and my will is all I had and all I knew.

So now I am supposed to turn all that over to God? And trust that he will do good with it for me, for my life? That is going to be hard to do. How in the hell am I supposed to do that.

Well he says I need to pray a little prayer everyday, and I agree! Just a small prayer which goes a little like this.....God help me stay sober today. And then at night I pray....God thank you for keeping me sober today. I think if I do this it will eventually come, that connection with God that I am longing for.

I told him, I just want to feel something. He said.....you addict you. I laughed my ass off. How funny is it that me and addict would want instant gradification and feel something. Boy did that open my eyes.

Thank God for my counselor, this man knows what the hell he is talking about.