:)

I'm getting strength from people to stay. No promises. I'm sitting tight. :)

That would be me. I type so fast sometimes it comes out all messed up. Letters all rearranged. LOL..Oh well..As long as yall get the point.

no, no, a thousand times no LOL. It's confusing enough for newcomers already. Look at all the newbie posts we get in Daily forums.

This is a jumping off point - people get a feel for the place here, then move into different forums.

Answers are here - you have to look for them tho.

I think if we're trying to somehow make places for people to post without controversy , we're not doing anyone a service. Life is about being confronted with opinions and different ways to do things, whether you're an addict or not

D

Is it the truth and is it helpful.....

OK....here's the deal as I understand it and have experienced it both in recovery circles and in other areas of my life:

1. I cannot control what other people say or do. In a venue like this, I personally believe and have found that the majority of the people are sincerely trying to be helpful most of the time. But, really, I don't have the power or the right to force other people to be helpful in the way that I personally think is most helpful in any given situation and, in truth, I may or may not even know what is right or most helpful in any given situation, so why would I necessarily assume that "my way" is the right way, the only way, and the way that everybody in the world should do it?

2. If someone says something that really bothers me -- I mean, really gets under my skin in a way that I can't let go of as opposed to just strikes me as stupid and/or rude and/or inappropriate and/or ridiculous -- almost always there is something going on with me that I need to get more aware of and more real about in relation to whatever has been said. Also, if I find myself being "told" the same thing or reacted to in the same way over and over again by different people in different areas of my life, it's usually a good sign for me to give some careful consideration to what's being said, even if I don't like it and don't want to believe it.

2b: In the relatively rare situations when somebody is truly just being a jerk and I know it d*mn well, it doesn't bother me in that same deeply disturbing way, and it won't hurt my feelings -- I mean, why would it, because why would I take what someone I truly know to be a jerk says to heart anyways? I do not have to let someone get to me just because he or she chooses to be jerk.....I mean, maybe I'll ignore that person, maybe I'll reply to them sarcastically (try not to do this so much, but old habits die hard!) or maybe I'll give 'em a go-round for 2 or 3 posts just for the intellectual exercise, but let it get deeply under my skin..... why honor a jerk with that much power?????

3. Since I can't control other people and if I really, truly after careful consideration (including thought, prayer/ talking with trusted support people) believe that people's behavior in any given situation is not good and or healthy for me to be around and if it is clear to me that most of the people in that situation are OK with it's being what it is, then good self-care simply requires for me to remove myself from the situation....because, right or wrong, I do not have the right, nor is it good and/or respectful and/or healthy for me to try to change a situation in which other people are content just to suit myself. (A little caveat: If I repeatedly find myself in all kinds of situations like this all over the place, then it's probably time for me to ask myself "What is the common denominator here?")

4. Ultimately, bottom line in all of this is "What is my part?" and "What do I have the power and the right to change?" The thing I've discovered is that it is actually a very positive and empowering thing to accept that I almost always have a part I play in my own discomfort and pain and, because of that, I actually have a lot of power to relieve my own discomfort and pain by shifting my perspective and by changing my own behavior. And that's quite a wonderful lesson -- because as long as I allow my comfort and my happiness to depend on what other people, who I cannot control or change, are doing, then I am pretty much screwed.

freya

Loved that Freya. Thank you!

All I'm asking for is common courtesy. If I cannot find it here, I will leave. I will not stay in a toxic environment in the condition I'm in RIGHT NOW. I am deciding what to do. I’ve stated that already. It takes me a while to mull things over before I make a final decision.

I have received PM's from other people who have thanked me for speaking on this subject. There are a number of people here who feel the way I do, and I understand why. All I have to do is go back and read the responses. Apparently, I've touched a nerve.

There are many people I would miss here. But I have to take care of myself first.

I will not let anyone be a jerk to me. That’s what touched this thread off. It seems to me that under all of this “good, sound advice” (I wish there was a sarcasm font), there is a person there who has to boost his/her self-esteem by trying to “one-up” the person they are “tough loving”. I don’t buy it.

A few things I've learned from posting on recovery boards:

Avoid posting while angry.
I can not direct the tone, behaviors, or words of others.
It isn't all about me.
There are two sides to every coin
Two wrongs don't make a right
Share frommy ES&H.
Don't assume.
Agree to disagree and move on.
Treat others with respect.
Actions speak louder than words.
Do not take things personally.
Keep an open mind.
My opinions of today may not be that of tomorrow. Our opinions change as we grow in recovery.
If my words touch one person, it was well worth the efforts.
My words are never meant to offend, but may be taken that.
Common courtesy is a two way street.

A few things I've learned in recovery:

The words I needed to hear the most, I liked the least.
Change doesn't just happen. I have to make it happen.
I have to become very uncomfortable before I can find comfort in my own skin.
I am responsible for my own happiness.
There are negative experiences in recovery.
Drinking is merely a symptom of my problems.
I need to listen.
Anger corrodes the vessel in which it is stored.

Although I have learned much more, the above comes to mind first and foremost.

ETA: As I was posting Freya was thinking on the same lines and we have similar posts. I didn't mean to repeat the same thing. Great minds think a like. Haha...

I like the "don't assume" part...many of the nay-sayers have done that plenty of times themselves, not just to me, but to others as well. This thread isn't only about my experiences...I want to make clear if I didn't earlier that this is a trend I've noticed.

My anger is healthy. I've been thinking on this for a while, and I'm glad I'm getting it out. It feels really good.

I disagree with this one. Of course with respect.
In recovery just as I was in my addiction. I have to be selfish. I have to make it all about me and my recovery. With the help of others of course. But as far as what I live and what I overcome and have to deal with everyday. It is ultimately my own.
Hope that didnt come out wrong.

Because if I didnt make my recovery all about me. Then alot of what others said or thoguht would effect me.

Other than that . I like the rest and agree.

Bam I'm not enamoured of SR lately either - but there's good stuff here if you want it.

If you really think you can't find it? leave - but you'd be doing yourself a disservice.

I'd like everyone who supported Bam via PM to post as well.
Lets really mix this up.

D

I'm a big believer in, "I can't take care of anyone else if I cannot take care of myself first." "Get help, get well...help others, give back".

Sure, it is about you when trying to stay sober, but every word that is posted isn't about me. When I was new in recovery my sponsor said those same words to me. I brought everything back to me. I was taught it isn't about want it is about need. In social situations or other situations, it isn't all about me. In the proper perspective, I learned a lot from those words.

I'm probably one of the ones toward whom this thread is directed.

Someone mentioned a way of being. I've wasted a lot of my life pretending I was something or someone that I am not, most of the time so that others would not be uncomfortable. It's called "people pleasing" in some circles.

Marianne Williamson wrote a powerful poem about not being afraid to be who you are. She says that there is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that others won't be uncomfortable. Playing small doesn't serve the world.

I am who I am. My way is direct and to the point. I am not that concerned about your comfort level. Hell, for most of us, seeking comfort has just about killed us. I'm grateful that I encountered a man who was more concerned with whether I lived or died than hurting my sensitive little alcoholic feelings. I'd ask him why I felt so guilty. He'd say "Probably because you've been living in a manner that would cause you to feel guilty." I felt really bad when I got sober, about knee-high to a snake. I kind of think that is how you are supposed to feel when you have just realized that you've single handedly ruined everything worth while in your life. I thought I had low self-esteem and told my sponsor that. His reply was that anyone that has treated people the way I had should feel bad. That hurt, but I knew it was true and I had no defense.

That being said, he never came from a place of cruelty. Truth without love is cruelty and confrontation without a real answer is brutality. John never gave me the hard truth without backing it up with love and with an answer. He would say " I know you feel terrible about how you have treated your family. I felt the same way. But there is an answer, a way to make it right. Then you will know what real self-esteem is because you have way of life that is esteemable and causes you to feel good about yourself." Then he would demonstrate that in his own life.

As far as any one feeling like they've been ran out of here, let me tell you about a little guy I used to know. His name was Duke. Duke was one angry little dude. He'd sit on the back bench at the hall and vent and rage and dare any of "you mf'ers to "run me out of here." People would try to make him feel better with cliches and slogans and what have you. I never said a word to him because I knew he wouldn't hear it. In fact, he threatened me with physical violence one day because I talked about The Big Book in the meeting.

No one ever ran Duke out the hall. Alcoholism took him out. The pain of being sober got too much to bear and he started drinking again. One night he passed out on the railroad tracks and a train ran over him and killed him.
Jim

:) Isn't there already enough doodie flying around?



There is a reason that they aren't expressing their feelings here. I respect their right to keep quiet about this. I do not want anyone to feel pressured to speak up. I am the one who started this thread, after all, and I knew what I was getting myself into. People can speak whenever they like. I just want them to know they aren't alone, and that it's okay to feel and think this way.

I think all of us have been guilty of assuming. Just like it was assumed I was directing my post toward you. I assumed this after you quoted me, Bam. I was not directing to you at all, but in a general way from my experience and years on recovery boards. This may be a new trend to you, but it isn't to me. I guess what I have learned, is again, I can not direct others opinions, behaviors, or words.

I don't say this to try to stir the pot, but as far as the dootie flying? After parodying a thread that made you very angry and trying to drive your point in a very angry tone, your post seemed to invite flying dootie. Sorry, just being honest.

Fair enough.


It is a huge problem on this board...enough sweeping generalizations to fill a novel. I see these thrown out all the time, and it is discouraging, especially when the person making them does not understand the other's situation.

Is it too much to ask questions first?

Exactly. Get to know the person and what they are trying to say... I would add that, with the right questions, asked the right way, the person who has red flags sprouting from every word will see them all by themselves...

Mark

No, it isn't to much to ask questions.

The truth of the matter is....I can't spell dootie or I mean doodie.

I know what you are saying and I understand how you feel. I went through the same thing many years ago. It isn't that I have lost my compassion, I hope not, but I think as we go along, we grow thicker skin as far as comments on message boards. I know how fresh the wounds are in the beginning. Hang in there and don't give up. You can and will get stronger and I promise you, things that seem so insanely crazy right now, can begin to make some sense. It takes time, lots of time and work. You can do this and go ahead and explore what you are feeling.

Actually, my personal experience with people who have been deeply affected by alcoholism -- either the alcoholic him/herself or others deeply emeshed in an alcoholic system -- is that this is very, very untrue. In fact, for me, having been totally ignorant about alcoholism until I met my current partner, believing that she could and expecting that she would act sanely and rationally in this and other ways was a huge handicap for me. There is a reason that alcoholism is called the "disease of denial" -- and, in my experience, no alcoholic worth his/her salt is going to be lured out of denial by some carefully asked questions!!!!!!! In fact, I know quite a few alcoholics whose stories include anecdotes about the years and years over which they "fooled" licensed mental health professionals!

freya