ultimatims..am i doing the wrong thing
 

I think it was duet who said that there are too many ultimatums in my relationship with my ah.....and i should give him his life back--i agree with this also. but on the other hand.....
i am going to court tomorrow to try to negotiate an FM (not sure what this stands for--but its for a restraining order in family court). Fm restraints do not show up in any record they can easily be dissovled or amended. they allow time for my ah to show his commitment to getting better. and they also allos for as much visitation as i and my ah want. to not agree, my lawyer believes, considering his prior and recent conduct, truly signifies that he doesnt "get it" and i really do need restraints.

anyway, i feel that i am giving my ah a choice---a chance to get help--he says he will agree to it, (but does not want to be seperated.(he needs me to be there and support him, but also he hasnt done anything inteh past 2-3 weeks that we have been seprated to show me that he is serious abuot treatment.. mainly because he thinks that i may go through with a divorce anyway, so he would only be doing these things to pacify me.) he says that he will not break a court order that tells him he has to go for substance abuse evaluation, random drug testing, etc...... if he does break it, then i just follow through with the divorce...but then he is in the house, and i dont think he will leave on his own.
If he follows through, then maybe we will have a chance....maybe.

But i dont know if giving him an ultimatum is an answer...i feel that alot of times, and ive posted this before, that addicts are given a choice (i.e., intervention or given an ultimatum by their spouse (i know personally this has worked in some marriages) were they are told either get help or im filing for divorce...once they get into a program they begin to "get it"...not always, but sometimes when pushed inthe right direction, they get it....what do i have to lose if i give him these options?/ im not forcing him to do it, im giving him a choice....

So, im a bit confused about what is the right thing to do...also, i feel that he has broken so many rules in our marraige, does he even deserve another chance?? he should feel LUCKY that i am giving him another oppurtunity after eveerything that has happened...instead he has alot of anger and blame for me that i am keepinghim from his kids, and that he is alone and out of the house. he called me evil yesterday that why cant i let him pick the kids up instead of having his mom do it...what are the kids thinking??? dont i care about them??
Doesnt he care about his kids??? he didnt seem to care one iouda when he was doing coke in their bathroom and leaving some residue on the counter....he didnt seem to care when he was driving too fast and swerving in and out of traffic when his daughter told him to stop, she feel sick and he said "this is how i drive"...

((Drainedwife))

If he not working an active program of recovery, then it is my understanding that the disease is still talking for him. As others say here he is "quacking". With the poor me, you did this to me, blah, blah, blah.

Just remember you are doing what is right and healthy for you and your children. Try to tune him out or if possible not even talk to him when he goes to that same ole "quacking".

It is ok to have a place that is safe for you and your children.

Take care of you,

Rita

Go to court. Get the family restraining order IF you feel it is safe for the kids to be around him.

Understand that there is a big possibility that he is still using, and even if he isn't, his behavior has not changed an iota.

There is a difference between setting boundaries to protect yourself and giving ultimatums to control someone else.

A boundary is "I can't have you live here, and before I can invite you back I need to see some significant change."

An ultimatum is "You need to get treatment OR ELSE I will divorce you/sue you/whatever." OR "If you get treatment I WILL let you move back in."

I believe that you are finally setting boundaries for yourself and that is a scary thing. You don't know how to do it yet. You are uncomfortable. All this is normal.

Your AH, if he WANTED to recover and stop using drugs, would be DOING IT no matter what you said. You could ask him to come home OR say you were filing for divorce and if he TRULY wanted to get clean, it wouldn't matter. Because an addict can only get clean for himself.

In my opinion, your AH isn't ready to stop using. He will continue to use and abuse until he is ready to stop for himself.

Keep holding on. You ARE doing the right things.

hey drained - you deserve to be happy and safe.

you didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you can't control it.

i've tried ultimatims and usually end up backing down. so now i just try to stay away from them until i get a bit further in my recovery.

blessings, k

I do think ultimatums are our way of trying to control things and the outcome.
They don't work.
You all have been separated and he hasn't had a single lightbulb go off in his head, he is still just playing games. ALL he wants is to be back at home. I can't see that any reality has set in and he does not take you seriously. He is pretty sure of himself or he would be living in that rental house.
And as long as you all are discussing it and negotiating it, it adds fuel to his fire.

Sorry if I am blunt. This is my prior experience, not once, but many times over...because I would leave and then come back.

I know this has got to be hard for you to go through an him whining, begging an threatening makes it harder. In my opinion you need to stop second guessing yourself. Like the others have said stick boundaries seems he is more concerned with getting his self back in the house, than getting help. If you back down now nothing has changed an mostly things will just go back to the way they were. Drugs or no drugs I have seen it happen before with abusers.
Good luck an remember don't let him push your buttons, an take things one day at a time.

Drained.. you are not doing the wrong thing. You are doing what you need to. I am looking up to you right now thinking "Man, that girl has got her stuff together!"
You have to be prepared mentally, emotionally, physically, and finacially if your AH does not get his *hit together, and that is exactally what you are doing. You are very smart for what you are doing because by the sounds of it, your AH may never get it.
Even though he is "clean" (so he sais) he is missing out on his "Recovery" by not wanting do deal with his issues, and THAT will determine a big part of his future..

Don't for one second doubt yourself Drained... not for a second!

I understand what you're saying.
Maybe it would help to mentally remove him from the whole formula.
What do YOU need in your life to be happy?
What do YOU feel is acceptable contact with you and/or the kids.

Try not to place judgement or punish, just what can you live with, and of course what ensures your safety and the safety of the kids.
T
hen, you will have a nice template of your boundaries.
I found that when I made my boundaries all about "me", I was more comfortable in enforcing.
He can do whatever he wants, and pay the consequences later. You can remain clear and steadfast concerning your life.
The choice then becomes his.
And I think we have all found, that looking too far down the road (as in "if you do this, then I'll do that") is a dangerous path.
You have the right to adjust as you go, if the need arises.
Prayers for peace and clarity (((DW))))
Cece

I think this says it the best. When your AH decides to find recovery it will have nothing to do with you, the kids or the marriage. It's all about him. You can threaten until the cows come home, make deals and ultimatums, but none of it will ever work until he is ready for himself. My AH started recovery only after he was ready. I wasted so much time and energy begging, crying, threatening, issuing ultimatums...all of it and NONE of it changed anything.

The addiction was never about me nor was the recovery.

my ah just sent me an email
 

he said we should both try to love our family unconditionally....we were both very angry and said things we shouldnt have, and for that im truly sorry. despite what you thinkm ive stopped for good. i have a cup of coffee every morning and i feel fine. that doesnt mean i dotn have to go to therapy, i plan on going. also i said to our daughter yesterday - maybe mommy will come to the movies with us this weekend. her face lit up and she looked at me like i was planning a surprise for her. i felt so bad afterward taht i couldnt give her that gift. please try to stop the damage and pain we are all going through(he means to stop the RO, and give him a chance by letting him come home)...if you let go and let god, i know things will work for the best.

thoughts??????

i want to give him a chance, i really do....maybe this was enough of what he needed to stop???? i dont know.....

what he doesnt understand though, is that maybe i need time to think things through....alot has happened in the past 18 months..and how can he think i can trust him again???

it's ok to not be ready. blessings, k

All of your power lies in keeping him out...once you let him back you can be sure that it will not take long to get back to where you were with or God forbid an even worse place...

Do not let him back in unless you plan to totally give yourself and your kids over to his disease...

When hooked as he is on drugs they are unable to truly care and put there all into anything else for any period of time. Its sad but true.

You need to follow your gut and what you want for you. Try as we will we cant convince others of how we see it, they have to learn on their own.

To thinks Id like to say:
1. My AH has taken thousands of substance abuse evaluations, everytime passes with flying colors. DO you know how many counselors whove only seen him for that or outpatient counseling once a week believe he has no problem, why cause they arent there, nor do they see the struggle or the giving in, theyve never seen his tears.
2. Ive more than once seen amny addicts do awesome for 6 months and get their life back on track only to fall right back to where they were or worse.

Concentrate on what you want for you, not how you want to believe he'll change. He loves you, but going to treatment for you, or the kids will NOT solve his problem.

Its a sad sad world

dw,
This is kind of blunt, but it is said with love and concern for you and your kids. I don't mean to offend, and quite frankly it took a couple of people being bluntly honest with me before I began to 'get' what I was truly dealing with. Made me angry at first, but they were so right! The choice about what you do is yours and yours alone, but......

He is quacking so loud I can hear it in Tennessee! He is not interested in recovery, he is interested in going back to the status quo. He is trying to intimidate and manipulate you into doing what he wants. He is pulling at your heartstrings using your kids as weapons. He is attempting to make you feel guilty for protecting yourself and your kids from his abusiveness. HE is giving YOU ultimatums. The question is, what are you doing to do with them? If you give in, it will not be any easier next time. And there will be a next time.

He does not care about you or your children in the way that a healthy husband/father would. It's sad and it's hard to accept, but it's reality. It sucks. I hate it for you and for me. But it is what it is.

I hear you still grasping that hope that he will miraculously change into what you want him to be. Sorry, not likely to happen and letting him come home will make the odds even worse.

Set your boundaries-UNCONDITIONAL BOUNDARIES-concerning what you will and will not allow in your life. No "if you.....then I'll...." or "if you don't...then I will....". I said it before and I am saying it again-give him his life back. You are still trying to control what he does and it will not work.

Again, all said out of concern for you. What you decide to do is your decision and everyone here including me will respect that. I had to keep giving my ex just one more chance until I just couldn't do it anymore; so do you. Geez, it took me 25 years, so I really do understand. I hurt for you, and for your kids.

hugs and prayers...

I agree with Duet, the things he says are the same all our addicts have said, and most of them years later are still doing the same things just in different degrees of progression

I also agree with Duet - Your AH is tring to make you feel guilty. Do what is best for you & your kids.

((((DW)))
I get the feeling that you may be hearing the two things that tear at your heart:
Him: If you don't let me back in there will be no chance for our marraige
Us: Don't let him come back

Its really not so simple, but if it helps, I wanted to add that sticking to your boundaires may be the ONLY chance you have to save your marraige.

You are not ruining the chance...you're putting together a chance for him to make good choices, and leaving the window open (hope), that he will and that down the road a healthy relationship can occur.

I know how hard this is...
(((Hugs)))
Cece

Drained, my 5 year old does that every now and then. He will ask me if Dad can come, or visa versa. I know it's hard especially when your children are involved and they don't understand. I had to straighten my spine when my son would get sad, and not let him make the decisions. That's the big part. You feel like your ripping your family apart.

Hang in there...

Triple Ditto to what Duet said. Stay strong ((DW)). It's not always easy thinking with your head rather than your heart, but you must do it.

I'm sorry, but allowing him to come home will result in the abuse starting again. There will be drug use in your home, around your children. Your AH is full of bulls**t.

Do you notice how he is putting the responsibility for all this "pain and suffering" on YOU? As though you are the one that chose drugs over a family, or put selfishness in front of responsibility?? What a load of crap.

HE is responsible for his own situation. HIS choices landed him outside of his comfort zone.

The more you talk to him or read his emails or listen to his voicemails, the more he will worm his way back into your emotions. STOP NOW.

It isn't easy. But what do you really want for your life? You only have two choices really: go back to the same way it was before or go forward alone for now.

Because I am telling you, YOUR AH HAS NOT AND WILL NOT CHANGE AS OF NOW.

my MIL sent me an email that says she knows im hurting but think about how my ah must feel-he is like a homeless person..he cant see his children when he wants to and he cant come to his own house....
and what--that is MY fault??? he did this.he made the choices, not me...
she is an italian catholic and is totally against divorce. she just keeps telling me he has gotten the message now and she hopes i can forgive him. if he got the message, wouldnt he be going through treatment of some kind?? maybe he got the message that im not going to tolerate his treatment of me...
im sure he wants to stop using and is trying....and i really wish i could believe him...but the trust is just not there..and that has to be earned....and what about my feelings?? HE wants to come back and live in the house...well, my rights have been violated...what about my feelings..what about what i need and want???

This is said with much love and I don't mean to sound harsh, but....

Why do you keep reading all these e-mails?? Stop letting others try and influence you. It is not his mom's place to be telling you he has changed. She is acting just as co-dependent as you are. The only person that can show he has made a change is him, and that can not happen over night. It will take time, a long time. These day to day e-mails are futile.

Look on your email ...there should be a button that says BLOCK...you can block emails from people you don't want.

Drained...I understand why you are feeling this limbo of not knowing for sure which way you should go. I've been there because when I divorced my husband I did it with love in my heart still beating strong for him....still does. He said a lot of things to me that made me feel guilty....made me feel unsure of my decisions....but it all affected me because I allowed it to. Because I made room for him to manipulate my emotions. It is tough to metaphorically fight through the garbage...the quacking and the manipulation. But it is possible. Find the time to have some quiet contemplation where you are listening to your own mind and heart. Figure out what is best for you.

As far as the ultimatums...I've given them...it is a kind of control and there is just no way no matter how much you try...to control the actions of another human being. I ultimatumed my husband into rehab twice...meetings...outpatient. They never had any lasting effect because the stints weren't meaningful to him. I too, at the time, thought he would "get it" just by being there.

The simplest way I could put it is...every lesson you learned as a teenager and as an adult, think to yourself, was it learned from the advice of others or learned from your own actions and consequences? Did you defy the advice from your parents only to learn later that they were right because you again took action against their advice and suffered a consequence? Same with addicts. They need to make the decision on their own and even when it is made on their own recovery is tough on them. I never whole heartedly did something from the advice of my parents because it wasn't what I wanted to do. Eventually I ended up doing what I wanted to do and ended up paying for it one way or another.

This is why....
Release yourself from his addiction. Allow yourself to do what is best for you and live life and at the same time let him live his and figure out his own path.

Everyone has made some excellent points. If he was serious he would already be in treatment. And if his Mother doesnt want him to be homeless she can let him stay at her house.

I would also like to point out that your daughter saw him attack you and tried to stop him. What if you let him move back and something happens to you when shes not there. Kids think everything pertains to them. I see a little girl thinking its her fault you got hurt or worse because SHE wasnt there.

duet said it so well....quadruple ditto. And MeggieStar made some very good points!

He USED your daughter with that common and abusive tactic of maybe we could all go to the movies. He HURT her by doing that. He doesn't care who he hurts or who he uses. This is just more abuse.

If he respected you at all....he would back off and give you the space and time you have asked for and even made legal.

I know you would really like to believe him but you can't. He is still just trying to get back in control, that is ALL it is.

If he succeeds...you haven't seen nothing yet as far as the abuse goes, he will have just climbed up a few more notches. And he will take all of this out on you and much more.

And if he is going to use your daughter, you may have to put a limit there too.

dw,
Hon, if you haven't already read this, you need to. We all need(ed) to at one time or another or we wouldn't be here.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ct-change.html

my mil sent another email saying i think i misunderstood her..she said she didnt think it would be easy for me to take him back, and that she was in the dark about how long this was going on for. she said i hope he gets the help he needs-but she has nothing more to say because she is just so saddened by all of it....and then she ended it saying, stay strong.

tomorrow i go to court---wish me luck.. i just hope he agrees with the restrictions...i will try to make sure he can see the kids more--its good for them to see their dad as well, and maybe a phone call good-night.

I cant believe how hard this is....i cant believe this is my life and i am living through it. My 12 year old has so much anger...i see his behavior in her already....she is going through alot..12 is a tough enough age, and adding to it must be so hard for her. It is hard for me also to deal with her....i am going to try to get her to go see a counsler, but she is not willing to go, so its not going to be easy.