Um, whether you realize it or not, "governing authorities" already control many of the rules of your personal life. You're obligated to financially support your family, even if you were hypothetically to walk away from them. You are obligated to educate your child, to provide needed medical care. Fail to do any of those things and you could go to jail. In a legal separation OR divorce, the court generally only decides what you are unable to agree upon. And enforcement doesn't happen unless you violate the terms AND the other party complains about it. I don't know where you get the idea legal separation is some invitation for a gross invasion of your personal life. The "legal" part is as much for your own protection as anyone else's. Would you want to be responsible for the financial consequences of her driving drunk, for instance? Absent a legal separation, there's a good chance that you would be. How's that for an intrusion into your personal life?

Poor SOB... you sound so much like I did three years ago that I'd love to just give you a hug and sit down and talk for a few hours and maybe some of the mistakes I made you could avoid and maybe not - sometimes we have to go through it to learn it.

You can't force her to get well which SUCKS because I am a fixer and I had a plan and damnit she was going to follow it and well if she didn't then that was gonna be it.

We plan, God laughs.

I can tell you a few critical things from my experience and if interested you might dig back into my posts to see if it makes sense.

1. She did not get help (AA) until rock bottom and she could not hit rock bottom until I kicked her out. It sucked.

2. Her real conversion in AA happened almost a year later when it went from being something she did to keep me off her ass to something she clung to like a drowning person grabbing for a rope. Until SHE decided it was life and death it was not hurting but it wasn't changing her.

3. I buried all the fear, resentment, frustration, anger... until it led to my own depression and anxiety getting so bad that she left me. She moved home last night. Somewhere along the line she got saner than me. Watch yourself carefully - if you figure you have a plan and don't need help then you are racing toward a wall. Of course you will probably be as sure as I was that nahhhhhhh... you are different ;-) Man I hope you are smarter than me, I may as well write a friggin cookbook for 973 ways to prepare crow.

We've had a tough road but we are in the car holding hands with 3 years of hard lessons behind us and we are finally working TOGETHER to help one another with their own issues by talking through OUR part in each mess (12 steps teaches you how) and just remembering who we are talking to. My wife can give you a long list of things wrong with me but she will be the first to say that I have learned never to be sarcastic, snarky or mean when I speak to her and instead of jumping on her when she is less than congenial I've learned to say "Baby that's not you, what's got you worried?".

Last week we buried her sponsee and I know that for half of us here that's the nightmare - our beloved, infuriating, magnificent, frustrating, incomprehensibly incomprehensible person who drives us crazy might be gone one day before we can say "I forgive you and I am sorry". ...OK so the other half here says they wouldn't mind all THAT much if their qualifier were gone but that's just anger talking. Love and hate are very close cousins, ambivalence is their opposite.

It's OK for you to be pissed off and love her madly at the same time. Stop kicking your own ass if you can't decide what the hell you think because this stuff is too hard to figure out. Get therapy, see a doc to make sure anxiety and stress are not killing you and get into Al-anon... it doesn't prevent the next storm, it just ensures that you can find the calm eye in the center of the next storm to ride it out without getting capsized because when it's over, she's going to need you and yes, you are going to forget that she caused it and do whatever it takes to pull her back in the boat and help her because she's your wife.

If you are a spiritual guy I found God's instructions on dealing with an alcoholic wife interesting. ..he doesn't have any special caveats there. He says to love your wife, period. Love her as christ loved us. Ouch - I'm thinkin that's a pretty clear instruction... we don't get a pass when our wife is driving us ******* crazy. Our JOB is to love them, period. Protect them, always. Forgive them, regardless of whether they ask.

That sounds like "Wow dude, you are a doormat!". I thought so too until I realized that not only does it make me happier it has a big impact on my wife when I am not an *******. When I stay calm and steady in the midst of a storm she clings to me. When I add to the chaos she doesn't. When I handle upsetting news with grace and forgiveness she is more confident sharing with me.

I understand where you are (I think, don't mean to suggest I know your life better than you do).

I think you will be happier if you can 'drop the rope' and stop fighting her. Is it fair for you to have to do that? Uhm... no. God didn't mention fair. He said "Love your wife". Trust me, I looked for the exceptions list... no luck.

I don't know why they drink. I know it is not to drown out the happiness and joy in their hearts. I know guilt and shame are two of the biggest triggers. I know I did not cause it, can't cure it and can't control it.

I also know... better than before after a month away from her that didn't end until we were both reminded that this disease can steal them from us in an instant, that I am going to love her with all my heart, unconditionally and without resentment or keeping score or worrying about whether she will relapse. When I do that it makes ME happy and when I'm happy her environment is more serene, she can focus on her program and she doesn't hold onto fear and resentment or guilt either and that means I'm not healing her illness but I'm creating an environment where she can heal herself and let God work in her life and he HAS. So much so that after 3-4 years when I ran myself into the ground I knew exactly how to climb back out and reclaim my life - I'd already seen her do it one day at a time.

Your writings moved me a great deal. I see hardly anything I haven't felt or thought only to find time after time that the secret to figuring this out is the realization that you simply can't. She may or may not be able to but she has to figure that out on her own and it hurts but we need to get out of the way, let them hit the ground when they fall and let them get back up or else we risk killing them. Sounds dramatic I know but it's true. They don't get well until the pain of what they are doing is greater than the pain they are trying to drown out.

If any of this either makes a lot of sense or really pisses you off (the two sure signs it applies!) dig through my old stuff a bit and reach out to me if it sounds to you as though I can relate and be of help to you in any way because that's the deal. We learn, we get better, we become well again and then we seek out others who are close to losing hope just as we were and offer them a hand, a shoulder, or an ear and help them if we can.

If nothing else made sense try one thing... think of a few times you were too harsh and a few times you were proud of her for trying even if she failed. Go tell her about both and let her know that you are scared and you love her and you wish that your fear for her well being came out sounding like the love and concern that triggered it rather than the condemnation and judgment she probably hears.

I held a guy in my arms Tuesday after we buried his beloved, sweet, kind and loving wife who just never could climb out of the hole of addiction. I think there were some resentments about something in my heart before seeing him live through my nightmare... I seem to vaguely recall some things my wife did when she wasn't well but it's kinda foggy now. She's alive, she did not ask for this and she is trying to get better every day and she's succeeding and she loves me. Honestly I just don't give a damn about the rest any longer if I know I have the opportunity to make as many changes in myself as she has so that if and when she stumbles I will be able to handle it so that I can be a help to her when she's able to let me.

Hang in there. I get it, I really do. It isn't fair and it hurts like hell and it scares the **** out of you and that's understandable, you love your wife and hate her disease and when the two get jumbled it's enough to drive you nuts. ...you have to drive to crazy at least, i can walk from here but I am getting better and laughing again.

Wow.

Can't tell you how much your post means to me. And with every ounce of respect and gratitude towards others who have posted here, yours coming from the male perspective and one that indeed appears to mirror (mostly) my ordeal frighteningly closely, words can't thank you enough. (more on this, as its too much to digest and comment on here and all at once).

Much to think over - and btw, we just got back from an informal "assessment" at a treatment center. Mixed emotions that I will post shortly. Just need some time to digest and recover from the impacts of this post and keep my "regular" day going.

I expected a response such as that. There is an enormous difference between laws for a society and something pointed directly by name at one individual or family.

Yes, I suppose one does bear the brunt of a spouse's actions if/when one party "gets into trouble" such as the example you laid out (drunk driving incident), but that goes back to controlling one another which I've learned here is a no-no. Hell, no one would get married if you looked at these kinds of possibilities when considering marriage!!! Kinda like signing those waivers before embarking on "dangerous" activities you pay someone for. You don't expect it to ever be needed, but you sign it b/c you want to do whatever activity it is you are signing off for (kids' bounce-and-plays, zip lining, rafting, etc.).

But this is about my wife's drinking, as much as I can lapse into making it about what's wrong in our marriage and all the potential ramifications -- and to the extent I have, I should probably apologize, but that certainly is a big part of the problem. I mean, who has a heathy marriage when an addiction is present? Anyway, I'm sure we (she and I) will debate "chicken or egg" (which came first, or what caused what) for a long time or until it is realized that doesn't really matter.

Yes, this IS about your wife's drinking... and that is especially the reason why you should legally separate. Do you understand that if she were to kill someone drunk driving YOU WOULD LOSE EVERYTHING? In today's litigious environment in the good ole U S of A you lose EVERYTHING. This isn't an off-hand comment saying to legally separate because you aren't happy in your marriage! Do you not understand that? People who legally separate do so usually so that the spouse does not take them down with them. They can't rack up bills that the other spouse is then liable for. And any legal issues are separated from the spouse because they are NO LONG LEGALLY BOUND to each from a liability standpoint. I sure hope your name is not on her car insurance policy, but my guess is it is.

Bob, there are folks here who have spent years in and out of court with their addicted exes after divorces. There are others who were shocked at how easy and non-invasive the entire process was. There is sadly no way to predict how ANYBODY will react to divorce, addict or not. My experience in the system, both as a divorcee and a former attorney, is that the vast majority of the time, the process is designed primarily to protect the minor children. And that's a good thing.

One of the excuses I used for years to stay with my AH was that if I left, that would give my AH unsupervised time with our son. Time and interactions I couldn't monitor (well...make that time and interactions I couldn't CONTROL). As time has gone by, I have come to understand that it is infinitely more important to do my very best to establish one stable, healthy home for him. Obviously, if my AH is endangering our son, that issue would end up before a court. But on the other hand, my AH has a right to have a relationship with our son on his own terms, in his own way, provided that he is not doing something illegal or abusive.

As for this being about your wife's alcoholism, well yeah...it is about that. But it's not JUST about that. You are absolutely right...it doesn't matter one bit what caused what, who caused who to turn into a horrible person, blah blah blah. The situation now is what it is. Assigning blame doesn't help, or make the situation any better, in part because your AW just isn't capable of thinking rationally about that stuff. A big breakthrough for me came about a year ago, when I started realizing that it no longer mattered to me if my AH thought I was right. I no longer worked to justify or defend myself to him. He is not rational, and it is wasted energy that often results in a huge overblown conflict that traumatizes me and our son. I also admitted to myself that I wasn't really trying to justify or defend myself as a way to protect our son or my daughters from his "lies." I was doing it because I still needed his validation of my feelings. But the bottom line is that I know the truth. And I know MY truth. And he can lie, or deny, or make stuff up all day long. He will continue to do that, and it will continue to get worse, as long as he is still drinking and not working a recovery program. And I cannot lead him to recovery. I cannot suggest to him recovery. I cannot demand recovery of him. If he chooses recovery, he chooses it. If he doesn't, he doesn't. He either will, or he won't. The question is, what am I going to do? I got tired of making every single decision in my life conditional on what my AH did or didn't do. It's MY life, and I'm going to live it in a way that brings me happiness, and my children happiness.

Bob,

I'm going to PM you some info but wanted to post this for others. My dear friend shooting star here recently told me that ours is not the story of two people's flaws and failures, it's a love story of epic proportions. She was correct.

It's taken so much change for us to get where we are and we are still working but I know how our story is supposed to end and it keeps me from letting the setbacks deter me.

You're a good man. You love your wife so much that seeing her fight this tears you apart. You just want to know things can be ok again and they can be. Things are OK again here. She is still an alcoholic who fights every day to keep back the fears and hurt from a childhood where she was abused and abandoned and only valued for her beauty, I am still the terrified 8 year old who ran away when the strife in his home was too much to bear but the world sees the confident executive and his stunning swimsuit model wife lol. We are all a bit broken my friend and and the hardest battle I ever fought in my life was the one where I forced myself to raise the white flag and admit that I could not fight any longer. It wasn't until I thought I was beaten completely that I found out I was never in control in the first place.

That's hard for us guys. We are taught to be strong and not to let it show. We are taught that surrender is cowardly. We are taught to fight and not show our emotions.

Basically we are taught wrong. Meek does not mean weakness, the root of that word means strength under control. That's what we need to find when it gets tough. We don't learn that in a day or a week. Stop kicking your own ass my friend, this disease will kick it enough. :-)

Here's the tough one... you know she needs help. She needs a support group like AA, therapy, a doctor to make sure there is nothing off that can be corrected by medication... so do you. I fought that for three years and it almost cost me everything. Be smarter than me - that should be easy because I'm the dumbest smart guy I've ever met.

Hang in there bro.

C.

I am a little confused here. Pohs have you read this entire thread? All 22 pages of it? Because not once in my recollection has he ever mentioned he is in love with his wife. In fact Bob has repeatedly stated that the only reason he is staying is because

1) He isn't moving out of the house he worked for
2) He feels it is in the best interest of his son to stay married. He has repeatedly stated he would be out of this marriage if not for their son but Oh well, "its for better or for worse".

I don't think I have ever read one single redeeming attribute about his wife. This thread began with her threatening to frame him for physically abusing her. Along the way has been nothing but a constant tug o war with son triangulated between them both, and clearly suffering.

I am puzzled by the comparison of your situation to Bob's. You were always madly in love with your wife, you have extolled her virtues many times. Not the same situation with Bob.

I think Bob does need to go to Al Anon (and Bob I am not being negative toward you just stating what I have seen in the thread). Maybe this is just something that hasn't been brought up by Bob, maybe he feels something for her that you see that the rest of us don't, but the marriage seems terribly broken, and a lot of folks suffering due to the active alcoholic - mostly the child.

Thanks for pointing this out, Red. I'm like HUH? Has he even read this thread?

Yeah, had me scratching my head, too.

Bob, you will do whatever you do, and it's not my job to convince you what that should be. Your life, your consequences (along with your son's, of course). I do think you have a misunderstanding about legal separation, and what it means to be a party to a legal action of any kind. I'd note that this whole thread started because she was threatening to claim you were abusing her, so she's certainly not afraid to use the legal machinery (or the threat thereof) for her own benefit. If she were to do something like that you'd soon know what it's like to REALLY have government authorities in your business.

Hi, Bob! How did the meeting go? How did your wife recieve it?

I'm sure you are right, but I won't INVITE any "governing authorities" into my life, that's for sure. Been party to plenty of legal action here - lots of binding contracts - but nothing that would penetrate my private home and life and heart. I paid off my house, for cryin out loud, not just because it was a solid financial move but also because even a mortgage, to me, is too much of someone holding a piece of my life hostage. And that's just land and a building! Imagine how I would feel if my CHILD was the "property". Think Revolutionary War passion here. Sam Adams and the bunch!!! I know some are comfortable with the gov't being in their lives for whatever reason and that's just fine, I guess, but not for me - not unless times are so desperate there is absolutely, positively no (zero) other known option.

I suspect if I were to call out the dogs, the title of this thread would come to bear and pandora;s box would officially have been opened. I'm not holding back b/c of that "threat", but its something I suspect would be more than a small consequence. BUt even if common sense (and sobriety) prevailed, the lawyers will have come and left their mark. With all due respect to them - and I have them as friends - they and any governing authorities can get their claws into someone else's personal lives (and pockets) and only reach me indirectly (legislation).

Onward and upward...

My incredibly brilliant post ast night was wiped out by an internet bugaboo that struck my neighborhood in the wee hours, so I will have to revisit this. I do have something to say about my first informal meeting between my wife and an intake person at the local "recovery" center...

Hi, and thanks for asking!

Will touch on that when i am not supposed to be filling domestic duties (yes, they go on despite all this - hahahaa).

On that within 24 hours. Will be working and traveling a bit today - toward the belly of the beast (D.C.) lol...

Yes I read the thread. Yes chatting offline too. Yes have felt a lot of the same frustrations and anger.

Bob did not seem to think I was as far off as some who are sure he should immediately divorce or legally separate.

Of course I'm only thinking about silly things that don't matter like the pain of seeing the person you swore to love through better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and health... Not considering that he important stuff like car insurance rates.

If Bob was certain he wanted a divorce and wanted to get his wife out of his life would he be posting here or on a child custody site? If he gets there I spent several years on the board of a fathers rights org and kept custody of my daughter for 16 years and I'd be happy to share some things that might help but if anyone has 1% doubt about divorce I'd urge them to get it to 100% certainty by trying to increase it to 2% doubt.

Divorce is not a quick fix and the years spent recovering and money spent on lawyers if applied to repairing things might - might - be a better investment.

If Bob feels like I misunderstood him and he has no desire to restore his marriage then of course I would apologize.

I project my feelings too much but good lord some folks here are so consumed with bitterness and rage that I usually only hand around for a week or so. If I'm wrong I'd prefer to err on the side of trying a little too hard for a little too long.

And my car insurance was really high before wife's duis dropped off and yet I survived.

Y'know what Poh? I'm sure glad you've got the market cornered on your and your wife's recovery and you've got Bob's back and we don't. But I really don't appreciate your ***** *** comment about car insurance, either. I was simply pointing out what a "LEGAL SEPARATION" can help spare someone from using LIABILITY tied to car insurance in today's age. We ALL have the right to post our thoughts to Bob on this subject. Geesh. I think I'll use the ignore function.

Bob has never expressed desire for a divorce. He has also expressed that it has nothing to do with love & everything to do with maintaining control of assets that he feels he has spent his life earning. SIGNIFICANTLY different than your threads where you are sometimes seemingly blind to everything except the love you have for your wife.

Good for you. It's financially crippling our family. I will survive yes, but with incredible sacrifice made not just by me, but our daughter. I'm talking about quality of life sacrifice here - not the, "Gee, can't afford that designer bag this year, Dear" kind. The cost of a DUI is horrendous & nothing that should be made light of.

Nevermind, a DUI is getting off EASY if you think about it. How about if that drunk driving results in vehicular homicide? What if she kills a child?

I worked with a woman on the night that her husband & daughters never arrived to pick her up & listened to her screams as she was informed how they were sideswiped by a drunk driver, killing him & one of the girls & leaving the other with more injuries than I can remember. For YEARS she still heard her dead daughter crying for her to help her every time she closed her eyes to sleep. If you ever experience something like this it will change you forever.

Actually, in this thread, Bob's the one displaying most of the bitterness. (understandably)

Sorry I got annoyed and snarky. All here mean well and I understand we all bring our own emotions. I didn't appreciate the dismissive tone suggesting I was not concerned with the ops situation just because I had a different reaction to it.

One of the character defects I'm working on is that when I get my feelings hurt I tend to lash out.. Like I did.

My apologies for that, it's not who I'm trying to become nor is it very becoming but I will work harder at it.

Not bitter here. Love my husband. Love my home. Love my cats. Love my career. love my family. Love my beach house. Love my friends.

I have a really, really good life and most of the time I walk around thanking God for how much he has blessed me.

Your definition "dismissive". I asked a question based on your description that Bob is "deeply in love" with his wife. I haven't really seen anything indicating Bob has a deep love for her. What I hear is that Bob wants his wife to get sober so that some of the madness will end, and it will make life together doable. I certainly think that any positive changes in Bob can help the situation, things can be repaired with willing parties.

So while you personify us here as bitter and rage let me tell you where I am coming from (though I don't see bitterness or rage in my post). What Bob and his wife do between themselves matters not to me. If a situation where the marriage is complacent and pleasant is what he is looking for that's his business. Happy to share experience with recovery and so forth. Bob isn't a compliant patient (said with humor) and still pushes things that maybe we don't agree on. Whatever, I didn't do what people told me to either initially. I appreciate his humor about life.

What pushes me forward to continue to respond to this post is the kid. I had the incredible luck in life to have two wonderful parents in childhood. My husband was not fortunate that way. He grew up in an abusive home. Mostly abandoned, emotionally abandoned, lived in fear. Wasn't so much about physical abuse but there was a little of it. It was the dysfunction of the parents - it was bad. Real bad. The fighting, the hating, the lack of love, the lack of respect, the allegations about each other. Later each parent ally themselves with one child (there were two) then used the children one against the other. These two parents hate each other, and they are still together. Its because of the house. They don't want to sell the goddamn house. The don't want the other to get the goddamn house.

Now my husband is 52. Do you know he still suffers because of this? he left home at 16. He is still dealing with it its taken 5 years to get to where when the parents go cray cray, he can move on from it in 24 hours. Used to take a week or more.

When I see a child triangulated between an alcoholic parent and spouse, absorbing their crap, observing their arguments, being whispered sweet nothings in his ear by his alcoholic mother about his "horrible" father, it makes me want to vomit. I want to yell NO NO NO NO. I know what will happen to that child if something doesn't happen to stop this because I live with it. Its already happening. Saying things like "I am not selling my house", "why should I give up what I have earned" "I don't want the government in my business" they seem like selfish excuses to allow atrocious behavior to continue because the child, he doesn't have a choice. Bob has a choice.

Much of this thread Bob has talked about his son. Its clear he loves him very much. We say here you can't love someone sober, and I also believe that you can't love a child healthy when serious dysfunction like this exists in the household. You simply cannot protect them in the same environment the behavior exists.

So the mentions of divorce and perhaps separation are about that for me. I'm pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks this way. I certainly don't know all the answers - maybe if AW gets sober things will change, maybe Bob will do some self work, maybe maybe maybe. In the meantime day by day the child is subjected to an alcoholic, the fights, the craziness, and the house? Its doing just fine.

I appreciate the explanation --there was no purposeful dismissive tone on my end. I didn't suggest you weren't concerned.

Well said red, well said. Amen.

Lets face it, staying together with an alcoholic is awful. Divorce is awful. Life after divorce is no picnic. It depends on what protections you can put in place, and your own custody situation, largely that depends on the judges in your area. For myself personally, it has been an excellent decision for both myself and my children. While they still experience chaos with their father, they are not exposed to it on a daily basis.

Bob is best advised by an attorney and a counselor, which if I remember correctly he has sought out. The rest is up to him.

Most of us on this board realize alcoholism is toxic and very progressive, and a child being in that situation is toxic for them.

Only Bob can decide his own future, we can support him but not make decisions for him, no matter how much we have learned from our own pasts and the hurts we and our children have experienced.

Everyone here comes from a good place and wants the best for each other, don't let anything get in the way of that friends. XXX