Real or Not Real
 

Has anyone read the final Hunger Games book? At the end Peeta keeps asking Katnis if his memories are real or whether they were fabricated during his captivity.

I feel like doing the Drunk or Not Drunk version with my husband as it pertains to the really bad times we've had this past year to two years. Did these things always happen as a result of drinking or were some of those moments had with a sober man who was just terrorizing me. I think I can forgive the bad if it was a result of an altered state of mind, I don't know that I can forgive him if some of that was from a sober man.

Drunk or not drunk: Calling me from your car saying you we're going to speed off the bridge because you want to die.

Drunk or not drunk: telling me you hate me after the last time I had sex with you, while I was 7 months pregnant.

Drunk or not drunk: screaming at me in front of my mom a week after our second daughter was born because I made you feel like you couldn't do anything right.

Drunk or not drunk: telling me it was "no big deal" when I fell and scraped up my side when I was 5 months pregnant.

I assume that those things and a hundred other bad or worse situations that occurred happened while he was inebriated but I don't know if he was or not. I can't forgive him if he did those things sober. I also can't tell if it matters. Sometimes I feel like I'm past the bad that happened and I can and want to forgive him and other times like now, it feels surreal that those are MY memories. That crap actually happened to me and I allowed it.

It doesn't matter if he was sober or drunk. These things happened. They were all real. Gentle hugs to you.

That's my take on it too. I was constantly questioning my own reality especially as I go through the past events and wondering if my perceptions were truth. I know they were and that's all that matters to me now.

HUGS!

They happened and were real to YOU.

Lizatola, I'm doing that right now too, although I'm sure dwelling on the past isn't healthy. It's just that I view things so differently now. Yesterday he did me a favor and he was being very bossy and he apologized right after he was being so obnoxious but he apologized for being frantic, I wanted him to apologize for being controlling. In the past I would NEVER have labeled him as controlling but its apparent to me now how controlling his behaviors are. He wants a result and he acts a certain way to get it, however I don't think he's aware of that part of his own behaviors yet. It's like I now have 20/20 vision and it makes some of the past stuff look and feel worse than it did before.

I understand that completely. I don't think I truly understood the pathology associated with the word 'controlling' until I started working my recovery. And, that goes for me, too. I thought I was fixing things FOR HIM. When, in reality, what I was doing was controlling the outcome to lessen the fallout from his behaviors. Whether it be an angry outburst, retaliatory silent treatment, depressive incidents and sulking, etc, I was always trying to control all kinds of things.

It's truly eye opening and then I realized just how controlling my husband was, as well. It sucked, but there's a huge part of me that is relieved. It gives me peace to know that I am on a path of enlightenment for myself, to know my own self better, and to learn how these patterns were created so that they don't happen again.

Just the other day I literally shut the car door on my AH while he was trying to bait me into an argument we were having. I knew we would go in circles, I knew where he was going with the lie he was telling, and I knew the truth and no longer feel the need to prove it to him. So, when he challenged me, I stepped out of the car and walked into the bank, it was his choice whether he was going to follow me or not. It was the end of the conversation. 2 years ago, we would have sat there for an hour going in circles and I'd be on a serious ride to crazy town.

It doesn't matter if he was drunk or not...until he is sober and has changed his way of thinking/living thru whatever means of work he chooses best for him ie AA therapy or whathave you..his brain is still sick....Stung the forgiveness, letting go...thats for you. I heard that you dint have to like something to accept it...once you accept then you make the choice..."if I am unable to change the present state off affairs, am I willing to take measures necessesary to shape my life to conditions as they are....

When we are in a relationship with a man and have that soul tie that binds us to them through brain chemistry, history, children despite the horror of addiction we finally get to a place where we wonder:

Who is this person deep in their heart? At the deepest place in their soul... their spirit... who are they? Is he someone of Character? Honor? Integrity? Is he Honest at all times? Can I really trust him with my heart? Should I give him the rest of my natural life?

Sometimes down deep we know the answers to the questions that recovery bring to the surface but we just don't want to accept that the person we feel tied to and believe we live is not a person we should have chosen. They don't deserve our respect or love... they are shallow, selfish and not trustworthy.

Beginning to see these huge character defects is painful and how we deal with the truth as recovery strips away the denial determines our choices and destiny.

Personally I left the relationship with my A and moved on and now my A is in recovery...

but I wonder the same questions... who is this man? What is real and what is not... is he acting the part just to cover up his soul? ... or is he changing and becoming the man of honor and integrity in a spiritual program of recovery???

Honesty... I don't know. It is like crazy mirrors and a maze sometimes dealing with A's drinking or in recovery... because developing trust is almost impossible.

Time will tell... and I am just watching with great interest and wonder.

But I won't get in a relationship with an A ever again. Ever.

Is it a matter of allowing it to happen? That wasn't allowing it - he did it, he said it you couldn't stop it. I think this behavior when it first springs up is so shocking that there is a disbelief on the receiving end - how could your husband say and do those things?

It takes time to get to a point where you won't accept it anymore and you got there. That is what matters.

Whether he were drunk or sober wouldn't matter to me. Nobody gets an out because they were drunk. Someone who "acts a certain way to get a result" is manipulative, I tend to give them the opposite of what they hope to achieve when dealing with a manipulator.

Your ability to overcome and forgive him AND move forward with him is dependent on his sorrow in behaving that way in the first place, and not doing it anymore.

is it somehow OK if a drunk driver plows into a crosswalk of school kids BECAUSE he was drunk?? well, he didn't MEAN it, it's not the REAL him and all that. when violence and abuse are perpetrated upon us for ANY reason, it's is indefensible and unjustifiable. to try and see it any other way is to minimize, justify and rationalize unacceptable behavior. we aren't talking the errant snowball or Frisbee that gets us upside the head here.......

Stung, imho there is no good excuse for bad behavior and treating someone poorly. Drunk or sober makes.no difference.

Stung, I'm sorry. I don't care if he was drink or not, an ******* is still an *******.

I agree that there is never an excuse to behave in an abusive manner, but like the crosswalk analogy, for me, there is a difference between someone who accidentally mows down school children while they're drunk versus someone doing it in a sober state knowing exactly what they're doing and aiming for them. Even our legal system thinks there is a difference. The outcome is the same but the intent isn't. The intent matters because in one scenario I was collateral damage to his drinking, in the other it isn't collateral it was intentionally directed at me.

But does it really matter? Whether he was drunk or not it made you feel like ****. That's the bottom line.

P.S. Loved the Hunger Games!!!!

There is no difference in an active alcoholics thinking/ motives... sober or not....its not until he works the steps that he can be restored to sanity.

I think the better question is "sick or not sick"? And the answer is sick. At least historically. The next question is "do I see him healing or am I willing to stay anyway"? Everything was real. Everything was a result of choices he made...and he watched it all happen too, and continued to make those choices.

Hugs!

No, I suppose it doesn't really matter at all. Moving forward is what I need to focus on.

He seems to be having a real ah-ha moment of his own this week. He's doing therapy twice a week, doing AA every day, book study once a week, calls with his sponsor daily and he blows into a sober link thing every two hours that is monitored by his therapist and if he blows anything above a zero apparently his therapist, sponsor and myself will be notified. Personally, this wouldn't be the method that I would choose but he really likes having the accountability from his therapist and sponsor. The success rates from having accountability measures in place versus only AA meetings jumps from something like 5% to 80%. Anyway, he's sounding more healthy and adjusted and sober every single day, which is great, wonderful actually. I don't know why I'm thinking so much about the bad stuff yesterday and today.

Hey, we all overthink sometimes. That's what got us here in the first place!!! Moving forward and taking care of your children is your top priority now. Driving yourself crazy trying to determine his motivation for bad behavior only hurts you. Big hugs!

My RAH has spun an alternate reality about his 2013 drunken crisis. I do not know the whole version yet, but if I wrote my version and compared it to his, it would be evident we had both interpreted and reacted very differently.

I fear he is busy masking rather than creating a stronger self with more self esteem and integrity. Papier-mâché masks don't weather well so eventually things will crumble. Best to focus on me so next time I have more wisdom, serenity and courage.

I think that in this point of everyones recovery that "thinking" about the wreckage of the past is natural. Finding forgivness and letting go of resentments are necessary to move on. I know, it's so hard! Be grateful for progress and know that no one is perfect.

Mine too. It makes me sad sometimes, but like you, I am trying to stay focused on myself and moving forward.

What is scary to me is he is actually "sponsoring" a newbie AA member:gaah

:scorebad

I know what you're saying and I can tell you that for me I got to a point of realizing that even when RAH was sober, many of his actions & words were still being driven by his addiction so it didn't matter when they were spoken.

I was surprised to find that many of the things said that horrified me so much, he never even remembered saying nor could he come up with any rational explanation for why he would say such things.... except, that it was always easier to act out like that as a method of protecting the web of secrets he had built around his addiction. And the further he got into his drinking the harder it was for him to keep track of his own lies so he would be argumentative as a matter of general behavior. Plus that justified MORE drinking afterward.

He wasn't REALLY sober often when you consider the half-life of alcohol & how long it would take his body to work through the toxin & the resulting, dehydrated hangover it induced. (even if he didn't acknowledge the hangovers regularly, his body & brain were still bearing the punishment) Generally speaking, he would have started drinking again (even just a few beers to stabilize himself) before the process could cycle around so round & round it went. So pretty much all those things said, were said under the influence of his addiction to some degree.

Honestly, when I find myself looking into my memories like this & I keep running into these kind of circles, I get this visual of a pile of hundreds of cords all tangled together like strands of Christmas lights of all different sizes utterly entwined.... & I'm glad that it's on HIS side of the street.

Posted by Cynical One, who has a wealth of information in her blog!!

Addiction As Disease Does Not Equal "Get Out of Jail Free”
By Peggy L. Ferguson, Ph.D.

Sometimes family members have a hard time with the idea that addiction is a disease. When this is the case, it often has to do with the issue of responsibility. Sometimes family members believe that "disease" is equated with a "get out of jail free card" or not being held responsible. This is not the case.

An addict has responsibility for choosing recovery over choosing to stay in the illness. They have responsibility to do whatever is necessary to maintain sobriety after they have interrupted the addiction cycle by quitting drinking, using, or engaging in addictive behaviors like gambling addiction or sexual addiction. They also have responsibility for the inappropriate and devastating behavior that they engaged in during the active addiction.

One of the overarching tasks and goals of early recovery is to take responsibility for that recovery and for the devastation caused by the addiction. This is important in order to gain insight distorted by denial and other defense mechanisms, to gain a new direction in life, and in developing the living skills that are needed to recover.

Family members are naturally "irked" by the idea that the addict gets off the hook for their behavior because they have an illness. The truth is that in recovery, sometimes for the first time, they ARE being held responsible. They have to be responsible for their behavior in order to recover. The same is true for family members. There is often a great deal of maladaptive behavior involved in the family dynamics of addiction and each family member must take responsibility for their own feelings, decisions, and behavior.

Spouses and parents often try to solve the problem of the addict's addiction for a very long time before the addiction is correctly identified. They often end up enabling the addict by their very problem solving attempts. These family members usually tolerate intolerable behavior and situations over a long period of time, lose themselves in the process, and yet depend on the addict to step up and make it all alright.

Even sober or abstinent, the addict cannot make it all alright. The family member has often invested all their time, energy, and other resources in the development, nurturance, or reclamation of the addict, and has neglected themselves in the process.

In reality, family members are responsible for their own choices, decisions, and behavior in the addiction process--just like the addict.

One of the things that happens in the family dynamics of addiction is the circular blaming by all involved. The addict often blames the family members for the problems that occur in the family, in their lives, and the family member often believes them. These relatives typically feel compelled to engage in inappropriate caretaking or coercion of the addict, trying to get them to straighten up. There is a direct parallel between the compulsion to fix the addict and the addict's compulsion to "use" the mood altering chemical. The family member often gets to the point where they blame the addict for their own choices, saying "I had to do ____ because he did _______".

The reality is that both had choices and responsibility for those choices each step of the way. Addiction negatively affects everyone in the family. No one escapes unscathed.

The good news is that each person involved in the scenario can recover, regardless of whether the other does. This, again, is based on choices and responsibility for one's own choices.

There is no doubt that the inappropriate behavior of the addict hurts the family members. The dishonesty, the inability to be emotionally present, or the inability to engage in adult responsibilities with emotional maturity is often part and parcel of addictions. Family members are justifiably angry about the addict's behavior. If they have much insight into addiction, they are appropriately concerned about the continuation of that behavior.

Recovery is a process that occurs over a long period of time. When the addict enters recovery by stopping the consumption of alcohol or other drugs, things can begin to get better. However, abstinence is only the very, very, very beginning of recovery.

There is much work to be done.

Affected relatives also need their own recovery program. Family members do not recover by being a non-involved bystander or by continuing to over-invest in the addict's vs. their own recovery. Any person's recovery is contingent upon taking responsibility for that recovery. Relationships can also recover as each person works on their own issues.

The non-addicted spouse can recover regardless of whether the addict ever gets clean and sober. By working on their own issues and working a program of recovery, they can find peace and serenity that is not dependent on what the addict is doing or not doing.

Ultimately spouses get to choose whether or not they are willing to remain in a relationship with uncertain recovery outcomes. Relapse is a common symptom of all addictions and all chronic illnesses. Sometimes spouses decide that they "have had enough" and choose to get out. In some cases that action represents responsibility for self-care.

AND I just had a heavy dose of "actions, not words." He just lied to me about something that doesn't even matter, then tried to defend himself, then tried to blame me "because I would have been mad" had he just told me the truth off the bat, then he cried until he finally apologized and then told me he doesn't know why he lied. Whatever guy. Today is another day that I'm thankful that we're separated, although I am also thankful that our daughters got to play with him for awhile today too. Bright side is that I've finally detached from him because I was totally unphased by his crazy emotional roller coaster that he just rode on.

The "sick or not sick" was right on the money. He's still very sick.

I'm sorry, Stung :( I would agree with everyone else that it doesn't matter whether the behavior occurred while he was drunk or sober, unacceptable behavior is still unacceptable.

On the controlling thing, he may well not be aware that he's doing it. I've only just realized the extent of my own control issues in the last few months. Hopefully, he'll really work his program and figure it out before you've had enough. I can't remember, are his parents alcoholics, too?

His dad, older sister, one older brother, and 3 grandparents are alcoholics but the grandparents and alcoholic brother are all deceased and his dad and sister still drink. The alcoholism is a familial thing but the controlling stuff is his mom. She manipulates people emotionally, not by outright telling them what to do. I'm controlling in a very direct manner and admittedly so (don't drive so fast, wear that shirt, let ME push the stroller, etc.) My husband and his psycho mom are subtle about it and act very distressed, anxious and beside themselves until you give in and give them what they want. It doesn't feel controlling at face value but the times that he really sends out his anxious cues (because I'm now aware that he KNOWS how to hide his anxiety, and he's good at it) is when he's trying to illicit a specific response out of me. Like "park over here, I'm getting really anxious that your car is going to get towed" or today's was "I'm really sorry I lied. I just want to tell you again that I'm sorry. Please forgive me." And 'please forgive me' really means absolving him of wrong doing. But the lying was deliberate and my reaction to his lying is MINE!

He's codependent on me and I think the lying was more codependency (worrying about what I'll think and say and how I'll react) than dry drunk. He was very pleasant until I busted him for lying. He also asked me twice earlier in the day if I was mad or frustrated. He wants reassurance of my feelings all the time. Not healthy!!

Intent isn't magic.

If someone steps on your toe, it hurts. You deserve to have that hurt acknowledged and be given an apology. A dude who keeps stepping on your toes and doesn't make any real attempts to quit hurting you does not have your best interests mind.

Is he sick? Great thought game. Eventually you have to get distance from people who keep stepping on your toes.

Regarding the crosswalk analogy, intent is the deference between life in prison or the death penalty. Sick isn't an excuse. You misbehave, you pay the consequence.

My thought process behind intent was my wondering if he actually hates me or is it something he says when he's drunk. Saying it while sober makes me feel like its a genuine feeling rather than something that just happened while drunk.

The reasoning behind my screen name is because the night I joined SR and reached out here was because my husband had again told me he hated me. It stung every single time he said it. We have said "I love you" to one another countless times and I vividly remember every single "I hate you" he's fired at me. Often times there is talk of Jekyll and Hyde here, and I have definitely seen that in my husband but what if Jekyll and Hyde have both said "I hate you"?

Regardless, I think ReaderBaby was right that I could drive myself crazy trying to figure out his motives. And I think FireSprite is probably right that an alcoholic is never really sober until they're working a program and even then it takes a while for real sobriety to kick in. I guess my whole question and thought process is a moot point. This is just a bizarre speed bump for me.

Here's how I think about it -- I put myself in his shoes. So, all those things he did to you... is there any amount of alcohol that would make you do or say those things to a person you're supposed to love?

My answer has always been NO.

Alcoholism changes a person's brain. But alcohol doesn't fundamentally change who a person are. Like the saying goes -- sober up a drunk horse thief, and you have a sober horse thief. Conversely -- make a responsible citizen drunk and he's not gonna start stealing horses. There are lines you don't cross, drunk or sober, if you are a healthy, caring, normal person.

Or, as LaTeeDa said -- see my signature.