This thread totally rocks. But you people are stopping me from doing chores. tisk tisk

Ug! This great question is hard to answer because AH is learning to change some unhealthy behaviors/thoughts. It's a work in progress.
If I met him today, I'd probably think, this is a nice, humble, giving, physically healthy, talented guy. I'd probably want to see him more than once.

If today he looked to me to be the mover and shaker in his life, I'd walk away. If I was sensing he wanted to merge with me, I'd walk away.

You know, a part of me does feel "home". I believe, to some degree, in the Imago theory which states that the goal of long-term relationships is to help heal childhood wounds. In other words, if you are both willing, you can explore and eventually grow from your past "wounding" experiences.
I'm not explaining this well....but if you read Hendrix, you'll know what I mean.

I've been reading Enneagram books for a while. The authors Riso & Hudson are great, as is Helen Palmer. Really eye-opening.

Thanks for including the acceptance speech Ago. "letting things go" is something I really struggle with. I am a doer, changer, reformer, perfectionist type. Learning to stay in the moment is my primary goal for the new year, and beyond.

many thanks

It seems I am equally a E1 and a E6. Interesting stuff. Thanks for bringing the whole thing to my attention.

Healing might be the wrong word. But it's definitely about being able to explore family of origin issues, create a safe place (as you say), and build a conscious instead of unconscious marriage.
It's sort of like waking up together from a coma.

Harville Hendrix
'Getting the Love you Want'

good stuff

For me, I accept people as they are. Not as I think they could be. Not as they used to be. I try to stay in the "what is" rather than the "what could/should/might be."

For me accepting that my AH was an alcoholic in deep denial was the first step in acknowledging that by staying with him, I would be settling for much less than I wanted or needed in my life. I accept that he is what/who he is and that he sees no need to change. That is valid for him. He is an adult fully capable of making choice for his life. They are not the choices I would make but that doesn't mean that for the time being his choices are valid for him. I also accept that I need, want and deserve much more than I had in that marriage and that I was/am unwilling to settle for less than the best relationship I can be in.

I am coming to this thread kind of late, but def. some interesting stuff to think about here.

I think about the last several weeks where my abf was sober but not in recovery. To me, he is not a nice person a lot of the time even then. He is grouchy, lazy, restless, selfish, and can be a big bully. I am bitter and angry b/c when he "first came back", he wasn't like that. He made promises (only to get himself back in the door), and I ignored what I have been learning, and believed in his promises. Then I went back to doing things to please him....cooking, cleaning, being affectionate and loving, complimenting him....supporting him financially.....all the while, back to thinking...if everything is just perfect, as long as he wants sobriety, he should have no reason to drink. We still had arguments. Daily life happens. He says to me "I'm not drinking and you're still not happy". True. I am not yet completely happy with me, and I am not sure if I can be happy being around a grouchy, selfish person...yet....in REALITY.....this is who he is.

Anyway, it just has my wheels turning here.....I mean in reality, Chris may quit drinking (even though doubtful without recovery), but if he does....can I accept all these other behaviors and be happy?

It's heartbreaking to think about this stuff sometimes....that the person we think we are in love with, may not actually be the person we can be happy with.

The "Imago stuff" has been "my experience"

not so much waking up from a coma as stopping patterns together

I dated the same "girl" for twenty five years, she looked different, sometimes she was tall, sometimes short etc as I moved towards "mental illness" each one a little worse then the last, when I got sober, each a little healthier then the last, until I met an "evolved" version and we healed together, then I relapsed and...I don't what the hell I met, now today I am "off the map" and it's kind of uncomfortable/frightening but exhilarating because I am in "uncharted territory"

His actions

/ giving false promises
/ not being able to talk decently about his feelings
/ lying
/ finding the next available girl right away and smiling when I saw them together
/ badmouthing me at work. well i badmouth him too but with you and others outside the job !!
/ acting as he cared and absolutely NOT caring at all
/ verbally abusing while drunk
/ showing no remorse whatsoever
/ saying " i am sorry" in such a superficial way it was almost insulting
/ shutting up when he knew i was hurting
/ drinking and drinking more
/ saying "I do not care about anything you do anymore. I am just trying to be happy"

Those actions were enough for me..
I wish I could say the same last sentence, and mean it.

And isn't it interesting (and frightening) how the people we were attracted to during our unhealthy phases are much like our parents, or other primary caretakers.
The ways of relating to others are so deeply ingrained, that we don't even see that the exact people we think are nothing like our parents, are almost exactly like them in many ways (!). For good and bad.

In my case, I thought I married a guy totally and completely unlike my parents. But, now I see one of his major traits is just like the trait in my father (and mother) that caused me the most pain -- passivity. blech.

If I were single today, I'd be curious what kind of guys I'd be attracted to - and who would be attracted to me.
Do we really learn? Ago, sounds like you have and that you're in a healthy satisfying relationship. Way to go.

Oh, jeez, anvilhead, I almost wet myself laughing :)

Robins, I'm really enjoying the interchange you have going here. It's lil' GL's bedtime but you can bet I'll be stopping in tomorrow morning to get my wheels going again. Thanks so much!!!!!

This is what I was alluding to when I said I "outgrew" my husband. He was in many ways just like my alcoholic father. Once I started to get healthy and learn new ways of living, we weren't a "matched set" anymore. He also began to evolve, but in a different direction. There was no longer anything in the relationship to "work on."

I had a really hard time wrapping my head around the concept of acceptance. How could I accept him as he was if he was not the husband I wanted him to be? I couldn't disconnect the dream I had for a partner from wanting him to be that partner. It was the most gut-wrenching decision I have ever made to file for divorce. But, ultimately I know I would always have wanted him to be someone else, something different than who he actually is.

L

Thanks GL. What a supportive and informative group here. I appreciate all the insight and personal stories.

I really get this.

Hearing things like this helps me clarify my dilemma. Not that I'll figure everything out overnight, or even in a month (or three). But, I have a better idea what questions I need to continually ask myself. Mainly, can I move forward knowing that the essence of who he IS will not change?

Some days I think, "No, we are not compatible. I am growing away from him" and other days I think, "We have some strong spiritual connection and it's worth all the hard work".

I suppose I cannot worry about finding the "right" answer immediately. But I do hope my uncertainty does not carry on and on......

Gut-wrenching is right.

Gaaa

I am going to sound like a complete arse and a "thumper"

Every time I "make a decision" it's invariably the wrong one....every time.

What I have learned is to "let go" and "do the next right thing" and the right answer will always reveal itself to me.....every time. I just need to learn how to "trust the process".

Now I am a male and an alcoholic, and like Meatloaf said, Two out of three aint bad, but it's two out of three that make me not that intelligent emotionally speaking.

It's really important for me not to "force" the big issues, not to rush them, but to "sit with them" every single time I do that I find myself making the decision nearly by "muscle memory" whether it was having the car packed before I even knew I was leaving, or laying in bed one night saying to myself, "hey, I was going to leave this relationship a few months ago and now I'm really happy."

If I shoot my mouth off before I'm ready, as one southern girl said here recently "I only increase my predicament"

The next thing that's equally important is that I do listen to that "inner voice" when it "speaks, it's very quiet and worldly clamor and my own "noise" can "override it", every single time I have ignored it, I have paid with years of suffering, I need to be "still" enough to "hear" it.

No Joke.

I made a decision against my better judgment six years ago that led to years and years of suffering, relapse,......hurt people around me, me leaving my girl to take care of my family, me losing my business, me "divorcing" my family, me "running away from home", having to "couch surf, find a job and a place, one little "Yes" when I should have said "no" six years before, and it set in motion trains of events that hurt and affected half a dozen people, including me that only by journaling my brains out did I find that's what started this present journey was that little "yes" when I meant "No".

The decision I made years before this all took place had nothing to do with any of that, but it lead me to that "string of circumstances"

It lead eventually to me meeting my present girlfriend and incredible "growth" but I don't know, in the future I think I need to listen to that voice....those last years were too painful I'm too old for that shyte any more.

Whenever I have gone to therapy and wailed "I don't know what to do, tell me what to do" the therapist has always said "Andrew, you have your answers, you have already told me what you need to do, you just aren't ready to do it yet."

"What you come searching for, you come searching with"

Your answers will come, be gentle on yourself, be gentle to him, it will all work out exactly as it's meant to, might as well enjoy the process as well as you can, because you're "in it" now.

Something ToughChoices said today resonated for me in this thread, about how alcoholism was the best thing that ever happened to her, because it lead to her own journey of self discovery....

She's very wise....and right...once you "turn the lights on" there's no going back to "darkness" and it's fun, and scary, and exhilarating

16 years ago I went to an AA meeting to quit drinking (for a minute) and get my girlfriend back.

An hour later I walked out of that meeting changed in a way that I could never change back. One hour and my drinking was ruined forever and I started a new "life path"

It's a lot better, it's fuller, richer, deeper, but I still laugh at toilet humor.

I'll take it.

Ya, my therapist once said it's like opening the door just a crack, but then when you try to shut it again you can't because your foot is wedged in there. LOL

Robin, you are right that you probably won't figure it out right away. Heck, it took me over a year to figure out what I wanted and then another year to actually go through with it. You will know what to do when it's time to do it. Meanwhile, it's best to just relax and enjoy the ride. :)

L

I have gotten so much from this thread- thank you.

I brought up patience on another thread FD started. It seems to fit in well here. In my case with STBXAH, he quit drinking but did nothing as far as recovery. I had it all figured out of course- I thought he should be going to AA, reading, counseling, talking, and getting to the root of WHY he was who he was. Never mind me- I was perfect- right? A year of me trying to get him to be who I wanted him to be, doing it my way was hell on both of us. He decided he wanted to separate. Don't get me wrong, though- I don't blame myself. I realize now I have issues, and I am dealing with them, but our marriage had issues and WE weren't dealing with them. I see that now. But it took me backing off and stopping and sitting with what was happening long enough to see it. I let STBXAH go. I did nothing but take care of myself. It was sort of an experiment for me, because I wasn't used to "letting" him do what he really wanted to do. I write that now and cringe. What I saw, though, gave me all the answers I needed. He didn't do a thing- but blame me for all of his problems. He also decided he wasn't an alcoholic. And he had had an emotional (maybe more?) affair leading up to his deciding he wanted to separate- the 2nd time in our marriage.

In just sitting with things and listening to my inner voice, I found my path. It took me over a year, but I knew I couldn't rush into anything without really knowing what I was doing- and I am one of the most impatient people I know. I'm not going to say it's easy. It's dang hard, but I can see it's worth it- if I just think about being grateful. I completely agree with TC about alcoholism. As much as I hate it, it has brought me a gift. I can take the time and space I need to address issues I didn't even know I had.

I also identify with what LTD said about "outgrowing" STBXAH. In all the years we were married I have gone to counseling. I believe I have grown so much from that. I know I chose STBXAH because somehow- even though I would have denied it until blue in the face- he is so much like my abusive father. WHY did I choose a man who is like my childhood nightmare? That's the stuff I am weeding through right now. And I hope to get healthy enough to never do again.

As my healthy 22 years sober friend says: "Progress, not perfection."

I like Ago. You use "quotations" even more than me. ;)

Um, why would you sound like an arse or a thumper?

Let go. Trust in the process. This point keeps getting brought up. And that's a good thing, it's what I need to hear. Over and over again. Because I'm sitting here pulling my hair out over not knowing the answer right now. (I'm not known for my patience. Bet you didn't figure that out)
I think, when it comes to the future of a marriage, I should know the answer.

But I don't.

Thumbs up to your therapist.

I think I can enjoy the ride. I have sooo much good fortune in my life. I am surrounded by 'good' -- but, I need to learn how to see the fundamental good in me. Easier said than done.

I need to find ways to calm the inner judge/critic.



As to why you chose a man like your father....
have you read Harville Hendrix? That might help you weed through this question.

Try not rush into anything. Progress not perfection...
More helpful reminders.

The alcoholism is helping me address issues with myself I wasn't aware of?!!
Damn, this is brilliant. I didn't think of it this way.
Perhaps I can focus on that positive aspect, instead of re-running past drunk AH episodes in my head.

ding ding!

Just looked him up by gosh! LOL!!!

My good friend is having a lot of marital troubles right now.
She'll come to me, weeping and miserable, angry about how he's causing her all of this pain.
I hate her pain.
But I feel blessed.

One day she asked my opinion on a particular interchange she'd had with her husband, I gave her my take on it, and she just sat back, SILENT.
She asked, "Did you learn that in Al-Anon?"
I nodded.
She said, "Too bad there's not a support group for friends and family of selfish ba$^@rd$!"

My point exactly.

We all have dysfunction. I have a free, incredibly supportive community of people of have walked this road before me. I have easy access to unbelievable wisdom.

Thanks guys!
-TC