chero, for me, yeah it would be the same.

in my opinion, a boundary is something you put up, saying "i won't tolerate THIS" and "i deserve better than THAT" and making a promise to yourself that you won't up with something you don't deserve. i would set up boundaries with absolutely anyone that i felt was being destructive towards me and my relationship with them, whether we were romantically involved or just friends.

your thread also made me wonder, would i put up the same boundaries if my ex wasn't an A. and the truth is, yeah, i think for now on i'm setting up boundaries in any kind of relationship i enter. there are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed, alcoholics or not, exes or not. by having in my head what my boundaries are, i'm able to stick with them and not feel anything for anyone once that line has been crossed.

I don't get it, you guys. I don't understand boundaries.

Do I say, if you do this then I'm doing this? How does that work?

I mean, how far do you take it. Do I say, If you drink...what?? I don't understand?

Maybe I should start a new thread for this one???

That is so wonderful to hear, Cheryl, your recovery is awesome.

The way it works for me is that _I_ am worthy of respect. From _anybody_. Friends, family, spouse, boss, co-workers. Anybody. Whatever problems they have in their life does _not_ change the fact that _I_ am worthy.

I set up boundaries by first imagining what I would tell somebody else to do in the same situation. As a codie I have a _wonderful_ ability to listen to other people's problems and help them find a good solution. As a codie I also have an incredible ability to _not_ do that for myself. Go figure.

So what I do is I imagine that I have a seven year old little boy with me. The "child within" that so many self-help books talk about. Then I imagine that what other people are doing to _me_ is being done to this "inner child".

When I imagine my ex-wife doing to a seven year old what she did to me I get offended. I get disturbed, I want to protect this seven year old in ways that I could not conceive of protecting me. I decided that the next time my ex would go off on one of her screaming fits I would _remove_ this "inner child" from the room and simply go elsewhere. There was no reason for this child to be exposed to such behavior.

I do that everywhere I go. When I go to the grocery store, which I _hate_ going to, I find ways to make it _fun_ for this seven year old to be there. I grab rolls of paper towels and juggle them. (Cynay!!! don't blow my cover :) ) I stop at the toy section and bounce a couple balls. I stop and smell the flowers in the flower case.

Recently I started dating a charming young lady who has 21yrs in AA. I told her right up front if she relapses, I'm gone. No second chances, no waiting to see if she "gets it", no driving her around to recovery centers. My "inner child" has had all the addiction he can tolerate in this life and I'm not going to expose him to any more. Been there, done that, done with it.

All of this "inner child" stuff is just a way for me to get around my codie-shortcomings. Since I'm not able to protect myself in a healthy way, I just turn it around to take advantage of my codie-strength and protect somebody else.

Mike :)

Please explain boundaries to me??
 

I don't get it, you guys. I don't understand boundaries.

Do I say, if you do this then I'm doing this? How does that work?

I mean, how far do you take it. Do I say, If you drink...what?? I don't understand?

I started the thread, Mike.

Mike, I read what you wrote. I think maybe I see my problem. I don't see the value in myself. It sounds dumb to say that.

But don't you have to at least like yourself to set boundaries?

chero, i never saw value in myself either. i needed other people to make me feel good about myself, which is the codie in me.

make a list of things you're good at. make a list of accomplishments that you're proud of. i don't even *know* you, but i could already list several things that i can tell just by reading your posts.

you have to respect yourself to set boundaries. loving yourself will come, gradually, as you put your foot down and recognize what you deserve and what you don't.

For me, my boundaries have to be about MY needs, wants and desires.

If I don't want to be around drinking, then I need to remove myself from it. That is my boundary. I don't say - YOU don't drink, I say - I can't be around drinking.

Does this help?

you draw boundries on what you will accept and what you will not....
for me it was being able to say ''no'' and being OK with that
telling my AS if you drink you can't live here
while you are drinking if you take the car I will call 911
things of that nature
taking care of YOU
now you don't need to hound the A''you better this or that"
just state your boundry once and stick with it
''if you are not home by 5pm no dinner''even simple things like that
the things that really trouble you and make you feel used is always a good place to start

I moved some posts from

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ppy-him-3.html

over to here so if this thread looks a little confusing it's cuz of the copying.

Mike :)

There is an excellent book about Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. Although is heavily stresses Christian fundamentals (and I'm not "religious" per se), it's a very good read. Many churches in my area are actually putting on Boundaries courses based on the work of these fellows..there is the book and videotapes apparently. My girlfriend, who is also more spiritual than religious is take the course and has watched some of the videos which she says are amazing. She called me all breathless after one of them to tell me how much AA references were used (knowing of course I am an alcoholic). If the course starts up somewhere again soon, I think I'll take it...it's advertised in our community newspaper under local happenings or whatever. I'm pretty sure the course is quite cheap if not free.

I've heard them speak and they offer an excellent view of how to put boundaries in place. I'm currently reading another book by them: It's Not My Fault, which is also recovery based....all excellent helpful material.

Boundaries are just a way to protect you and to let others know that you respect yourself.

I use a method similar to what Mike does... I 'take my situation' and imagine a friend in it and that helps me to 'see' if I am allowing behavior that I shouldn't.

A boundary is a fence or wall...and if I don't have it in place anyone is free to do anything they wish. I can place the boundary on myself....by leaving the room if need be or by refusing to join into an argument. I can change the boundary too...because it's there for me! I'm in control of it.

The good thing about boundaries is... once there, I have less negativity around me and sometimes...sometimes, people begin to change how they treat me, which is a nice added benefit but not the motive to have a boundary.

One boundary I've put into place for myself is letting others do what they can for themselves. I have to let go of rescuing or thinking they need me to rescue.


I'm also really trying to let other people deal with their own stuff. Too many times I've offered unsolicited advice.

If you say to your A, "If you drink..." what is your then?

I mean, you say if you do this then i will do....what??

what would I say??

What is best for you at that time? Everyone's then I will do this... is very different.

Is the drinking unacceptable to you? Who is the A in your life?

For me, the daily drinking and behaviors that followed were too much.
I told my exabf I couldn't live with the daily drinking and specific behaviors, lack of other behaviors. He replied he wasn't going to stop drinking. So once I had enough, my boundary was to leave. His actions progressed, so mine did, too and we sold the house and ended things.

What you would say would have to be something that you feel is good for you and something that you _know_ you are able to stick with.
Some here have said- no alcohol in the house, or not when the kids are up- or not at all ever. These choices are yours to make.

The consequence....what happens if the boundary is crossed has be what you feel is right. My idea is that it should 'fit' the situation or relate to it according to the severity of the boundary.

Although it's not my job to punish another, when the boundary is crossed I will act differently in some way or put in place another restriction to keep my life peaceful.

Nobody can know how another will react to boundaries or if they will deliberately cross to test them, that's why it has to be something you can stick with...or it's all for nothing and you end up with less respect than what you start with. I heard this in Alanon:"Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean."

I recommend you read the book that Nuudawn recommended, I think you will find what you are looking for there.

I just wanted to add that you have to follow through after setting the boundary. This is the hardest part, but for our own peace, it's an absolute!

Well, Aztchr, my A is my husband. And I have never set a boundary with him.

I'm going to get the book Nuu, recommended. I'll try anything. But I'm scared to set the boundary because I don't think he would respect it.

chero, what would you absolutely not tolerate? no drinking whatsoever, no matter what?

start with something small. what's something you wish he would change that you feel you need to set a boundary for? are you tired of doing the dishes? are you tired of vaccuuming? doing the laundry?

make a small boundary and go from there!

You don't have to set any boundaries today. Or tomorrow. It's usually best to wait until you have a good group of people in real life that can help you figure out how exactly to set your own boundaries. That would be people from al-anon meets.

Then you can start with a very small boundary. Something that if he does _not_ respect, then you can follow thru with a very small form of protection for yourself. Does he ever raise his voice at you in a disrespectful manner? You can set a boundary that if he raises his voice in a disrespectful manner you will simply walk away, and if he continues to disrespect you then you will call some people in al-anon and go spend a couple hours with them until _you_ feel ready to come back.

That's just an example, you'll have to figure out something small that works for _you_.

Mike :)

I can't do it. I'm not strong enough to say it and mean it.

One of the things about setting boundaries that's hard (and crucial) is that you have to follow through. "Mean what you say, say what you mean". So only make boundaries (threats, laws, promises, whatever you want to call them) that you are sure you are willing to follow through with.

The following through's the tough part.

I know it's scary. But isn't it scarier to think of living like this for the rest of your life? That's what powered me through the chaos; I knew that things were beyond not right, they were awful, and I didn't belong there.

The simplest way I can explain my bounadies with my GF is.
If she is not using

Rule #1..I don't tell her what to do.
Rule #2..follow rule number 1
it's simple becuase I don't fix her, she is allow to make mistakes
or stay in her own crap until she has have enough.
Basically I let go

I learn this through my 5 years old duaghter at that time.
No matter how much i told my duaghter to put on shoes
before she gose outside..she would forget or don't .
I grounded her for a day or so ...that didn't work
I conseled her...explained why..becuase I didn't want her to get hurt.
To no avail....i tell ya.
Sure enough...she had to basically leaned on her own.
A couple of days later, she came home with a piece of glass
in her foot. I loved her and kiss her boo boo.
The poor child limped around for a week.
But i never had to tell her about putting on shoes again.lol

All I can do for my GF is just love her and expect
nothing in return as i did with my daughter.

I also have remember that my GF is still not well.
Her thinking is not all that clear so i lower my expectations.
She is still trying to cope with her emotions...I don't get
too cuaght up in pionting out mistakes...of course she makes
more mistakes than she did 5 years ago before she relapsed.
She is not going to recover overnite

I also have to remember she precieve life from a totally
different aspect. Her perceptions of life or belief is totally
differnent then mine. Her experiences are different then mine.
These are the things i learn by sharing at meetings or SR.
She is allow to disagree with me and express herself

The important thing for me is...if I was her shoes...
mmm...I wouldn't want anybody making harder than it has to be.
I repect her as a human being and a child of god first and formost.
then an alki then the rest of it.

Why did I choose to fall in love with her or love her to being with ?
This is where i have to be honest with myself and ask
what was my motives to have a relationship with her?
To simply love her...or trying to get something out of her ?

We share our lives, we don't own one another.
I'm not better than her, she is not better than me.
Heck i'm Mr. head banger...ands she's likes air supply.

I'm on my spiritaul journey not her's
Most importantly I work my program. The 12 steps is a
living program...so i'm living it to the best of my ability.
I work on my forgivness, my letting go, my emotions
My pain from my childhood and whatever else my HP
deem I need to work on.

chero .. you dont think he would respect your boundary because you dont respect yourself yet . you dont want to confuse it with an ultimatum either . dont say 'if you have another drink im leaving you' if leaving him is not something you are ready to do . he will have less respect for you if you dont back up your boundary so i agree with everyone on here , make it small and something you can do .
i told my ah when he gets out of rehab he is not coming home , i dont care where he goes but its not going to be here . thats it , im not going to tolerate his behavior anymore around me or my kids . i didnt tell him i wanted a divorce or that i was leaving him , just that we would need more time for him to recover and me to recover before we can work on repairing our relationship . thats my boundary and im backing it up . to be honest , i feel so good about myself that i have made this 'choice' (augh! back to choices!) to benefit myself and my kids that i feel like a new person . it really empowered me and made me grow . you will feel the same , i know you will

just read your post about not being able to do it .. dont do it today , like Mike said , and dont make it drastic . i loved Mikes example , if he talks to you disrespectfully just simple tell him in a normal voice that you are going for a ride because you dont like being spoken to like that . and leave . dont say it twice , dont talk over him so he hears you , believe me , he'll hear you . its hard to follow through and once you walk out the door you will want to go back in to make sure hes okay and you didnt hurt his feelings but give it a minute , than another ....... you will feel better in no time ..
wait until you are ready

Hi Chero,
I too was really afraid of busting out both boundaries and also ultimatums. I wasn't sure I was ready to follow through with them, and I sure wasn't ready to be the girl who didn't back them up either. It's not the best solution because it still left me in the heart of a bad problem. I ended up skipping "recovery" in a way, and I just moved out.....I never tried "boundaries" or other recovery tools. I just up and decided it would be less difficult if I cut ties and tried to move on. Oh, sure, I told him numerous times that he needed to quit and tried to make that happen, but I didn't actually try the Alanon tools for me even though I did manage to get myself out of a bad situation. Now here I am.....I am out on my own now, but I'm starting to realize that I am still going to have to face these issues of boundaries if I'm going to have a good life for myself, even without the A around. It's not just a drinker who will take advantage of my kindness. Just tonight, I got a call from a guy I've dated a couple of times asking me for a favor after he basically stopped talking to me last week. I was kind of freaking out, wondering what to say and how to answer. I didn't want to tell him NO but didn't want to be taken advantage of either! I got out of the situation, but it's not because I really stood up for myself. So I realized just before reading this thread that I need to set rules in my life outside of my situation with XAH for being respected. I'm not very good at that either!!! All of this loooong post to say....we both clearly have opportunities to learn this and learn how to take care of ourselves. ITFM said that you have to respect yourself to set boundaries, and I believe that. I've never had that much respect for myself before. I was always too concerned with smiling and making everyone like me. Again, even though I'm out of the A relationship, I still have things to face. The cool thing is that I'm aware of it, and oddly enough, I owe it to XAH for helping me realize that I didn't love myself and that I needed to change that. :)

Okay, I'm going to keep rambling because I'm really having a light bulb moment. I didn't end my relationship with XAH because I was practicing recovery. I moved out that day because I was about to burst. The pain of that marriage was killing me, and I ran away. It just so happens that it ended up being a very good thing for me, but ultimately, I just ran away from the problem, both his and mine. I'm only only a slightly modified version of the neurotic, people-pleasing, boundary-less girl I was. I'm a little better with boundaries and self-respect (if you read my other thread about shooting down that guy), but overall I still have a lot of work to do on me! Wow.

Sorry.....didn't mean to hijack, I'm just having some mini-revelations over here. :)

TG, maybe leaving was your boundary... maybe it wasn't just running away. you got to a point where you said ENOUGH! and that was your own boundary in your head, so you left. maybe you created that boundary subconsciously. you said the pain of your marriage was killing you, so i imagine for some time that you had been thinking of leaving, or something to lead up to that point, whether you realized it or not.

maybe it really was a boundary!

That's _awesome_ TG. You said "was". And that is way cool. You just keep doing what you're doing and you'll be less "was" every day and more "modified" ;)

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That's just fine. You don't have to do _anything_ today. You have already made huge improvements just by understanding that you are not strong enough. Start going to those al-anon meets, keep coming here and little by little you will get stronger. One day, before you even realize it, you _will_ be strong enough. That's how all the rest of us have done it, and so will you, when you are ready.

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Mike :)

I am understanding it a little more.

Of course he talks disrespectively to me and others things I hate. I always just take it. It never occured to me that I had a choice....

this is going to be a big week for me....:(

Chero, that was my first real defining moment....realizing that I do have a 'choice'.

I look at boundaries as choices....I can choose to stay here in the same room when he disrespects me and take it....or....I can choose to walk into another room, or leave the house for a couple of hours and 'not take it'.

Boundaries...choices....similar, if not the same thing (at least in my own mind that's how it worked for me)!