The way I think of it is: Is it really worth it? At the end of the day it's just a drink. We don't need it for anything. If you were highly allergic to say, coca cola, would you still try to toe the line by just having a couple here and there? Is it really that important to drink that you need to put your life at risk? Because that's what it can come down to... life and death. Think about the risk and the reward here. For me, I know that the risk FAR outweighs the reward...

That about sums it up for me.

The more times I hear "allergy" and "research", the more they sink in. Thanks guys.

Hearing "recovered" vs. "recovering" also helps now. That's still a tough one for me but at least I'm thinking about it more deeply now.

A couple of questions for those of you who have a long period of sobriety:

a) A lot of people on this thread have been pointing out how its not worth trying to drink moderately since one is constantly obsessing about one's drinking when trying to moderate (how many, when, under what circumstances, etc.). But isn't this the case with a lot of people in recovery anyway(i.e. who abstain completely), even after years of sobriety? If you're not constantly thinking about drinking, why keep coming back to websites such as this, or go to meetings?

b) The question of why drink, especially after years of successful sobriety, is a good one. If one's life is in order and one is healthy and relatively happy, what does alcohol add? But isn't the answer to this obvious? Alcohol, like all depressants, helps one relax, it gives one pleasure, it lowers inhibition, etc. In moderation it is obviously a good thing. Then again, if one is ultimately unable to imbibe in moderation it becomes horrible. But aren't we being disingenuous if we pretend that alcohol is somehow evil per se?

I hope you guys don't think I'm playing devil's advocate just to troll. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

I obsessed about drinking when I tried to moderate...I was teasing myself with 'normal amounts of alcohol'...I was actually feeding my obsession.

I obsessed about not drinking when I got into recovery, sure, but it's not the same level of obsession, or at least it wasn't for me, and it went away.

It went away once I gave sobriety a chance, and I changed, which is something I could never do when I had any kind of relationship with alcohol. I was stuck in a ******** development limbo for 20 years.

Do you really think I'd still be here after seven years, with nearly 100 thousand posts, because I can't stop thinking about drinking Jimbo?

Nope. My reasons are a good deal deeper than that now.
I won't deny I still get a lot from being here, but help with not drinking is not one of those factors :)

I've found other ways to relax and find balance in my life.

I exercise, I have hobbies and interests, I make sure I devote at least part of my day to not working.

I've also found that not running away from my problems by drinking forces me to deal with a lot of things I could never used to...so my personal responsibility threshhold and stress handling abilities are very much greater now than they used to be.

True, none of these may be quite as immediate as alcohol but they do work, and none of them come with the crippling raft of problems that alcohol does either :)

Let me ask you a question Jimbo - what's your experience of sobriety and recovery?
Where are you speaking from, experience wise?

I'm genuinely interested in your responses too :)

D

I come here, and occasionally go to meetings, primarily, to help me do these maintenance steps from pages 59 & 60 of the Big Book:

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I've been going to meetings for years now. I started coming here because I was having a very tough time really committing to:

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Now that I've finally made that irrevocable decision, I find that my obsession has pretty much vanished and I'm learning to appreciate what I've been hearing from some here, and at meetings, that I'm becoming more recovered, and less recovering, as described throughout the BB. I want to continue to repeat steps 10-12 in order to maintain and enhance my new found spirituality and continue to grow as a person.

Thanks for the responses. In answer to your question, Dee74, I've been struggling with drinking for about three years, it was getting progressively worse, leading to myriad health problems (psychological and physical). I tried moderating quite a few times but it didn't take, for whatever reason(s). I finally made a commitment to sobriety a little over five months ago, so I'm obviously relatively new to this. The benefits of not drinking have been immense, as they assuredly are for everyone who is drinking at such self-destructive levels. I still struggle a great deal with the ambiguities and confusion regarding this decision, though. I'm extremely skeptical about the disease theory of addiction, and do honestly believe that many people can go from destructive abuse of substances to consuming them moderately. On the other hand, there's obviously a lot of people who cannot do so (for reasons no one, including scientists, seems to quite understand). The question for me, and a lot of addicts, is whether or not its worth the risk to really explore which group we actually fall into. I'm 99% certain I could have a glass of whiskey tonight and that would be it, but I'm not sure what the case would be a week (or a month, or a year) from now.

I found this thread interesting since it was pushing against some of the standard presumptions about addictive behavior. I found your replies very interesting and helpful. Thanks again.

I could not predict with any certainty, on any given occasion, how much I would drink or what would happen to me after I took the first drink. I could not take one drink of alcohol in safety. I had lost the ability to choose to NOT drink. For this alkie ....thats alcoholism.

Alcohol is only mentioned in the First Step, that is because once we put the booze down, then the real work begins.....we start to work on the real problem and the real problem is the ISM's = I - Self - Me.

I don't want to live that way anymore.....so it was suggested that I do and apply the rest of the 12 steps. Those are the steps that helped me to change the person that I brought into AA, one step at a time, so that I can live life on life's terms and develop the ability to be honest with myself first and others.
Which means that this selfish and self-centered alcoholic has a built in forgetter, that will LIE to me and tell me that I can have one drink, because one drink won't hurt.

I have to remember where I came from, how I got here and what its like now.....or I will buy the LIE.

I still think about this but I'm finding it's less and less frequently and for less and less time the longer I'm sober, and working the maintenance steps, in my case. I've seen lots of sayings discouraging this thinking like "not willing to do the research", etc. I like Russian roulette best right now.

I've heard many, many stories from people who have tried and failed. Many repeatedly, like myself. But I don't remember hearing from anyone, not a single person, who's tried and succeeding for any significant length of time. It would seem that ALL us alcoholics drink primarily for the effects of alcohol, not for the taste, social reasons or anything else. It's beginning to sound like playing Russian roulette with all the chambers loaded.

Thanks dSober.

I've actually seen quite a few posts here on SR where people tell their story of successfully learning how to moderate. I have a couple of family members who were also able to (and quite a few who were not). It's likely that a great many people who struggle with alcohol at some time in their lives (and many people do) are able to self-adjust their use of the substance and drink moderately. All of the research seems to point to the level of dependence at the height of use as the deciding factor of how likely moderation is to succeed. If one becomes deeply physically dependent on a given substance the brain may have rewired itself to never be able to process said substance normally. The question of whether an abstinence only approach, such as AA, or a moderation approach (MM) seems largely related to how far the individual's drinking had progressed.

I get the feeling from AA members that they believe that those who can successfully moderate drinking aren't "really" alcoholics. The problem with this is, of course, that no one seems to know what the necessary and sufficient conditions for being an "alcoholic" actually are. Furthermore, it's circular reasoning ("Why was he able to moderate? Because he wasn't an alcoholic. How do you know he wasn't an alcoholic? Because he was able to moderate").

This is not a dig on AA (I attended a few meetings at first, which were helpful, but have some deep seated reservations about the program... or any "program" for that matter). AA helps a great many people and kudos to the wonderful people at AA who seemingly are only interested in helping themselves and others.

This topic is primarily fascinating because it raises questions about the nature of addiction and why we, as individuals and a culture, are so obsessed with alcohol. Even with my enhanced quality of life in sobriety, I still miss alcohol a great deal. The standard account might claim that this is due to my "disease" but I have a hard time buying this particular line of reasoning (due to a lack of evidence, scientific data, and my own experiences).

Thoughts?

It'll take an hour but try this:

Recovery Radio Network : Sandy B. Spiritual Principles

I already thanked SoulSister for sharing it in another thread.

This one's written and quicker to get through. I love them both.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaspiritualmalady.html

You say "obviously" as if this is a fact, a given truth for everyone, which is just not so. My goal is to live with out any crutches. I am learning to relax, get pleasure, and lower my inhibitions without the use of any outside substances. To flood my brain artificially in order to manipulate my experiences in life in any way is not appealing to me. At all. I happen to prefer life unaltered. The sharp edges simply let me know I'm alive.

That's great soberlicious. I have a feeling a great deal of people with a history of substance abuse have a heightened sensitivity towards the darker aspects of human existence, hence the proclivity towards numbing oneself via whatever methods are at hand; which might explain the number of creative people who use (and sometimes abuse) drugs and alcohol. That "edge" can indeed be great, but sometimes it cuts to the core of our being.

I, myself, have ambiguous feelings about this, at least for the time being (and remember, as I previously mentioned, that I am relatively new to sobriety). It is, paradoxically, both better and worse to live life sober. It is a privilege to dance on the sharp edge, without running away to whatever intoxicant floods the brain with dopamine most effectively. At the same time, it is a great joy to dull the edge, to swim in the sweet waters of euphoria. Except, of course, when we lose control of the stuff and those sweet waters become a god damn maelstrom.

One essential element of my own battles with addiction, with regards to both drugs and alcohol (mostly the latter) is to come to terms with the fact that there was a great deal of good that came from my use of these things. I know this goes against the gospel as preached in many abstinence-only circles, but experimenting with drugs and booze enhanced my life greatly, at least for a certain period of time. It may even have saved my life. Then again, it also started destroying me and nearly killed me.

The problem with drugs and alcohol is definitely how they both repel and attract us, often at the same time. The philosopher Kierkegaard called this kind of concurrent attraction and repulsion "anxiety" (angest or angst). Smart dude. I feel there's a lot of anxiety (at least in this sense) in my life, being drawn towards stuff that I know can destroy me. Interestingly, Kierkegaard also said that addiction was the best representation of what he called the "demonic." There's probably something to that too.

(Sorry for the ramble. This thread is making me think about a lot of things. Which is great! Thanks again for the replies.)

There are other ways to alter one's mind. Many think, and feel, better, more permanent ways.

Yes, it is very possible. I'm in a similar situation. I just don't drink heavily anymore, but I still celebrate my victory over alcohol. Many thanks for your post.

When I was addicted to benzos and alcohol, I liked to think that I "had a heightened sensitivity toward the darker aspects of human existence", and that's why I liked getting f*cked up and waxing poetic about my brokenness and the beauty of pain, the need for a misunderstood, beautiful but broken soul like me to numb. Today I see it as a drunk rambling, talking about grande plans to change the world that never came to fruition. Nothing poetic, esoteric, angst-ridden, or beautiful about it. My behavior was dumb.

When I learned to actually sit with my darker side, invite it in, dig into the ugly bits, without being numb...then I truly understood what a heightened sensitivity feels like. Scary, raw...and refreshing. I went through things where the edge cut to my core, and I lived. By myself. Without substances. Without crutches.

Sweet waters of euphoria? I have only felt truly euphoric without substances. Being fearless is a high in itself. When I say fearless I mean, facing life head on, no hiding, no numbing. For me it has been the only way to truly know myself. Sure things terrify me, I have depression at times, but I also have true joy. Learning to refrain from any activities that cause me to avoid a feeling or experience shows me what I'm made of.

I think as you go on and start building a life sober, as opposed to just not drinking, you'll find those things I mentioned in my post will happen for you too :)
Honestly, I can't think of any people who've been regular members and successful with moderation for any length of time here.

I don't believe anyone who drank like I did can ever moderate. Moderate was never something anyone could call me as a drinker.

It's worth noting the OP of this thread is now happily abstinent :)

D

for some reason i can't see a reason why moderation can't work for alcohol or substance. then i look at something like compulsive gambling and its clear to me how hard moderation can be. are these 2 different beasts? i know people that moderated..they will say I was a drunk in another life...a lot of people do. it's just your own personal thing...

My father always was, and as far as I know still is, a compulsive gambler. His ego, manifested by gambling, and other ways, ruined his life and seriously damaged everyone around him. My drinking did the same for me and mine. I tried to moderate. I just kept doing more damage. I fail to see much difference except perhaps the direct physical ones of drinking poison. In any event, the "cure" is the same; fix the underlying mental/spiritual issues.

Very true soberlicious. The glorification of the "darkness" is incredibly infantile. I used to pray at the altar of completely f*cked up drunks like Hemingway, Kerouac, Bukowski, et al. Literary greatness aside, they were horrifyingly and pathetically messed up.

Dee74: You mentioned the difference between being "sober" and "not drinking." This is a common mantra in AA (I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way). What, to you, is the difference between the two?