I think collective wisdom is the bedrock of ALL solutions!! Heaven help me if ideas were copyrighted - I'd have a rather empty head!

I should add tthat I've never been a 'meeting' sort of person, yet I've managed to find an endless wealth of collective wisdom from all over the place. I do go looking though, I have to - I 'd be stuffed without it!

Should you care to put a little energy in investigating my posting record, I believe you'll quickly determine how empty that sentence is:)
Uniformity is not one of my strong suits, Taiman. I really don't view why I post in these forums as an exercise is agreeing or disagreeing, or as an attempt to garner support for my particular beliefs and opinions.
Rather, I consider it a privilege.

And finaly, not all shells have the honor of birthing the round shiny stone.
Sometimes, an oyster is just, well, an oyster.

I can only speak for myself and say that collective wisdom is MY solution and also that I am not talking simply about the wisdom in al-anon meetings, but that which is universal. I pick stuff up in the most seemingly unlikely of places. The bits I choose may be different that the bits chosen by another and I may discard bits along the way to make room for new lessons.

I have seen this movie before:

Its when the believers clash with the rationalists. Happens in all religions, and in political dogma as well. I am quite sure “absolute certainty” is almost a waste of time when it comes to systems of belief. What then follows is the religion either gets more dogmatic, or more liberal. I think AA is getting more liberal.

One thing is also true if you follow groups and religions, is that if they don’t adjust to "current reasoning" they become either bizarre (communism, for example), or they completely die (The Oxford groups, for example) . I heard once that knowledge is evolutionary, and that something’s just cannot be believed like they once where: for example original sin. A belief in original sin has almost disappeared.

You get creationists etc trying to revive old beliefs, and you get rationalist scientists opposing them - and so it grows either way. Quite simple really.

AA is a dogma - and that is a problem. Rationalists (Agent Orange, S Peele, K Reege) etc are doing there darndest to weaken and destroy it - its the way the world works. Things change.

I choose "reason" because it is the safest, tried, and can be proven (within reason lol). It also then gives me the freedom to roam the streets understanding the world as I will. I use rational thinking for irrational beliefs. The rest is just working, fishing, relationship, reading etc. Its like laying a foundation for growth and uncertainty. Growth, gosh I hate that word.

One word that has infiltrated SR seems to be “belief”. Systems of belief are what this argument is all about. I think the only answer is to just have faith, and reason, in what I have chosen as a way of understanding myself, and the world.

One last comment, Taiman.

What you have done is share your interpretation of the book to advance your opinion. Nothing more. And that's cool. It's what discussion is all about.

As for what you perceive as insults directed your way, well, I can only speak for me. I'm simply interpreting your words, and giving my opinion as to what I think they mean, in response.

After all, I can't read your mind, much as you certainly can't be certain of what Wilson and the others meant when they wrote the book.

:approve:

People talk of "interpretation" of the big book.

But what about when the individuals interpretation does not work?

They get closer to the literal meaning.

"I tried it my way" is a qoute often heard in AA meetings, so they try it closer to Bill Wilsons guide.

Its not AA persay that frightens people, its the idea of grinding there mind toward a literal interpretation of irrational and "life changing" 12 steps.

Faith without reason is disastrous.
And faith is a word that encompasses so much. It's virtually impossible to discuss it without stepping on someone else's diary:)

Absolutely and ideas like the world being flat can become extinct!! (Well there's probably one still believing!).

It is a collective process though - even the language we type is full of ideas that grow and change taking the form of language with it.

I believe we are incapable of independence because if all knowledge recieved from others was removed - what on earth would be left? How would I even begin to search without tools of understanding such as words - which ironically exist so that we can share.

Shared wisdom is a powerful thing, thankfully it's freely available - unless of course we choose to only follow 'recommended knowledge'. My view? Burn the book burners!! (Joking - just don't let them have any matches!).

Meh - us ruddy aitheists don't half complicate things!!

I agree eq.

I agree with both Five and eq. Nice civilized (fort the most part) discussion. :) I still wanna hear NA/AA ppl their take on the labeling.

Labeling of what, exactly?

Labels are groovey, part of life, its when there is only a small selection to choose from that problems arrise.

Kind of like my spiritual life Danny Boy.

I think you cover most of what I understand - thus far, on this fantastic journey that we are all on.

I just gotta learn more self control. Thats the big one for me. Refusing that eigth cappacino. And learning to keep my opinions to myself, unless peacefully.

Uh yeah the labeling thing. As I mentioned...just being like 'us alcoholics/addicts are stupid, we need to keep it simple' imo that's degoratory labeling. Also the 'alcoholic/addict' thing is a label. I'm so much more than an addict and it's not something that sticks for the rest of my life, I'm an ex cokehead. Notice the word 'ex'.

Yeah, well I thought your"Osama Bin laden" comment was a bit extreme myself,

Interesting. I always thought of faith as occuring in spite of reason. It's like if god was proven to really exist i still would not have faith. I'd KNOW but i still wouldn't have faith. To me faith exists beyond reason

BSP, I'll have a go at the labeling...

First, Peter -- THANK YOU! I never understood that whole "Good Orderly Direction" concept, you have outlined it very clearly for me -- that is OUTSTANDING, especially if I ever sponsor someone who is atheist or even agnostic. We all have our own beliefs and should be respected as such. I think that's what Bill W. attempted originally with the our own understanding thing...

OK, BSP. I'm an alcoholic. I have alcoholISM, not alcoholWASM. If I take alcohol into my body right now, I will set off a series of events which (I believe) will cause me to continue to drink... don't know if I could stop again. That's the physical part. It would be so simple if it were just easy enough to NOT DRINK....

I also have a mental obsession. If my thinking gets twisted, and I start reveling in self-pity, guilt, fear, remorse, anger -- all those good things -- my alcohol ISM will start to whisper to me.... one beer will make you feel good... or it will tell me I don't have this disease... it will do ANYTHING to get that drink in my body and trigger the physical craving..... that's MY belief -- if you don't agree (not you BSP, anyone), don't read my posts. :09:

Now, regarding the "simple" thing. Without sounding arrogant, I'm a pretty smart guy. That being said, I also OVERTHINK everything!!!!! I have to figure things out -- why, how, all that crap. When I first came into AA -- I did that with the program -- I thought about WHY it works, IF I'm an alcoholic, WHY do I have to be this way, etc., and I drank. I did that for 2 years before I was able to SIMPLIFY things and just do what was suggested. I surrendered, did what I was supposed to (the steps), and had a PERSONALITY CHANGE (some of us call that a Spiritual Awakening) sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.

That's my take. If others would like to flame me, have at it. :lame:

I would ask, though, that we discontinue the pissing contest...

Hope that gave you some insight, BSP....

Ken

There is no such thing as scientifically proven psychology. Information may be consistent with a theory, but it remains a theory, a hypothesis

Perfect Ken.

I'm sick of this too. It started out everyone (mainly AA'ers, LOL!!!) saying to BSP that's cool, whatever works for you...

And now it's back to this. It's just so pathetic.

BSP, btw those truisms (simple-minded you might say) actually can be quite helpful...ie to each his own...think about it. I've said it before as long as you are sober I'm happy for you.

A. A.' s PLEDGE is :

I am responsible ...when anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help , I want the hand of A. A. always to be there . And for that, I am responsible.

If you choose to take the hand or not is up to you. I hold out the hand whenever I can and I'm proud of that. I don't own whether it's grasped or not! I just know I grasped it and well, thank God I did!

I get angry with people like Taiman for spreading mistruths about a program that can and does save lives.

But, to each his own. That's his prerogative, although it really upsets me.

Cathy31
x

PS Oh, and btw I am actually extrutiatingly clever as well ;) (Seriously)

NoMoBeer, that certainly gave me some insight and I can respect your point of view, for sure. I also want to point out I'm not into calling others stupid or whatever. I guess for me personally and that's just me...I just really have to find out WHY something works, it has to make some sense for this mind, like logical reasoning. I got a really hard time just handing something over to something/someone else. Perhaps that's the reason NA/AA didn't work for me, I don't know.

The term 'scientifically proven psychology' or something is pretty incorrect, but I couldn't find another term right at that moment (was sleepy, lame excuse) but I actually meant that SMART mostly follows what's going on in psychology studies and official therapies and all that. Like the REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy) methods they use and all...but I dun wanna go on and on how great SMART is cuz then ppl will prolly yell at me to shut up, haha.