Trying to Understand
 

I'm asking the alcoholics here this question - it doesn't matter if you're in a program or not - active or not. I'm not a drinker (at all) but I'm trying to understand the disease as well as the effect it is having on me (and has had on me in the past - I am an ACoA as well as involved with an A).

When is enough *ENOUGH*?
When does it finally effect you -- hurt you -- to the point where you throw up your hands and give up - and allow a transformation to occur at your deepest level?
At what point do the consequences outweigh the benefits? What (and how much) do you have to loose before you realize how much you've lost, how much you've wasted and thrown away?

Or are these just MORE reasons to pop a top and down another?

It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? The pain, the sadness, the lies and excuses... All of those problems created by the alcohol and the alcoholic mentality lead to the the loss of self esteem and self respect. The chemical depressant (alcohol) combined with the depression brought on by the problems, lead to the urge to numb the pain with another beer.... which in turn creates yet MORE pain, MORE sadness, MORE lies, MORE betrayal, MORE problems MORE depression and MORE numbing with the chemical depressant... At what point will all that is good in you SEE and take responsibility for what this disease is doing and finally yell "STOP!!" and do whatever it takes to take recovery seriously and be sane and sober again?

I understand but, then again, I haven't a clue. I do know that the insanity has reached its apex in my life. I'm no longer willing to tolerate the stress and uncertainty that this disease has created in my life. It's unacceptable and unwelcome.

Hi Cadence, I know you are wanting answers here, but it is such an individual thing.
We all come to that realization on our own time schedule. Also unfortunately some never come to the realization that they have a probem/disease and die in active alcoholism.
Some hit bottom before more severe things happen, others bottoms are very extreme.
I know some say as long as our partners stay with us enabling us (in our minds accepting it) we will not get the needed help.

Hope this helps you
Diana

For some of us I think, it was the absence of self esteem and self respect that led to alcoholism, not the other way around.
But you're right Cadence, once in the cycle, vicious describes it very well for some of us.
For me, again, it was the other way around. It's when I allowed myself to see what was good about me that I started climbing out of the pit. Not before then.
If I hadn't seen that, and somehow believed that I hadn't eaten away the good man I am rebuilding, I'd still be lying and abusing and blind to all and everything but my addiction and it's needs.

It was enough when I had enough.
An addict friend of mine is fond of saying... "I couldn't wait a day longer for recovery."
Clear as mud eh...
But that's how it was for me.

You have to believe there is a reason not to give up on life, in other words still have hope. This is the way I see it cause I'm still trying to figure this out myself.

Hi Cadence,
I love it when people ask questions and then answer them in the same post. You have all the clues you need. The understanding??? I don't know about that. I don't know that anyone ever really understands. But, the clues are there. The question is, what are you willing to do about your situation? We have had enough, when we've had enough! You're the only person who knows whether or not you've had enough. Some people just have a deeper threshhold of pain.

Hi Diana,
Thanks - I don't think I've ever been an enabler as far as my A is concerned... if anything, he "doesn't drink" around me but, none the less, his drinking still has a detrimental effect on our relationship and I have reached the point where I can no longer tolorate it... He doesn't understand that "not drinking" doesn't solve the problem - the problems lie in the broken promises, the lies, manipulations, cover ups, etc etc etc. Honesty is, without a doubt, one of the MOST important things to me when it comes to my relationships with others and he's shown me (time and time and time again) that he's not honest and he can not be trusted.... if there's no trust in the relationship then there is nothing.

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the reply. I don't believe my A sees the good inside of himself. He appears to be very confident and self assured, and he talkes a great line of BS, but I think it's a facade... I don't think HE believes in his own goodness - and perhaps that plays a part in why he can not climb out... I doubt I've helped him in that area - I've been pretty blunt with him recently - pointing out all of his flaws and short comings.

<sigh> No matter what I say or what I do, it's wrong...

Thanks, Thinking. I don't think he's given up on life, per se... it's more like he's given up on himself.

Cadence, you don't understand. You're enabling him just by being there. It's not that he doesn't understand, he doesn't care! His relationship with you takes a back seat to his relationship with alcohol. The only person you need to learn to trust is yourself and that you can save yourself a whole lot of emotional pain by cutting him loose until/unless he gets sober.

Hi Music.
I grew up in the shadow and insanity of my parents' alcoholism - needless to say, my threshhold is pretty high... I have reached the point in my relationship with my A where "enough is enough" but... <sigh> I keep *hoping* that he'll... what... see the light? Have a revelation of sorts? SEE what his drinking is doing??? I dunno -- "in life and in love, hope springs eternal..." I'm a glutton for punishment. :frown: In the meantime I sent him a rather scathing letter (again) and I made it clear that I'm done with it all. Being involved with an A brings out the CRAZIES in me... I turn into a completely different person - it's not healthy.

Nope. Not wrong Cadence.
Just falling on deaf ears.
The sooner you face the fact that you're perhaps only background noise in his life, the better for you.
Are you surprised he talks a good B.S line? Say it ain't so.
It's one of the first things we learn to do as active addicts and alcoholics.
It's our main maintenance and survival tool.

I never considered being there as enabling but, yes, I guess as long as I'm there I'm saying it's "OK" (and it's NOT). I do understand that he doesn't care - :twak: he's made it incredibly clear on too many occassions.

I recently cut him loose (see previous post). Needless to say, I'm hoping it makes a difference but I doubt it will - I'm not the first woman he's cared about who has left because of his drinking, no doubt I won't be the last. He doesn't expect any relationship to last and now I understand why.

Ouch...Background noise... Yes, I suppose I am...
No, I'm not surprised that he talks a good BS line - what I AM surprised about is how many times I've bought in to it and how many times I was hurt by and and how many times I realized that it is just all BS (and then went back for more!).... He's a real charmer - witty, caring and seemingly sincere. I am sure that those qualities are PART of his real self but he uses them to unarm the unsuspecting... color me blind...

I'm getting a much better *feel* for the disease. My folks were alcoholics but they didn't use any "tactics" - they drank, got drunk and such was life. There didn't seem to be a lot of manipulations and BS in the home but I have no idea how their friends saw them.

I'm finding this honesty from you all to be rather... unsettling... but that's a good thing. Seems to me that if it comes from the horse's mouth one would
be wise to listen up and learn so's not to make the same mistakes again.... I'm listening (and taking notes!)

Thanks

Hi Kel,
I'm SO sorry about your friend. My mother's alcoholism killed her in much the same way that you described. Her liver, kidneys and pancreas shut down. Cancer took over and she was dead within weeks. It was a HORRIBLE death - she was in excruciating pain as her insides were eaten away by the cancer.
You and your friend are in my prayers.

Perhaps only background noise, I believe I wrote.
Either way, it's clear you're unhappy and that the actions needed to restore yourself to happiness have to come from you.
Any hope that your significant other will somehow contribute to this while still drinking is pointless.

No "perhaps" about it - I'm pretty sure I was just his background noise.
Unhappy is an understatement. I'm working on getting back to my normal, happy, upbeat self... This black cloud MUST go. Today I went out and hung with my horse after work - it was very theraputic, and if the weather cooperates, I'll ride tomorrow.
I'm amazed at how much all of this insanity has effected me... There is a sense of depression that has held me hostage and kept me from going out and doing things (instead of waiting for him to call) and the less I do for me, the more depressed I'd get... another vicious circle, isnt' it?
I don't expect ANYONE to take responsibility for my happiness - but on the other hand, I guess that means I have to stop blaming him for my UNhappiness too -- the bottom line is that I know I'm the one responsible for how I feel and now that I've extricated myself from this relationship, I'm hoping I can blow past that black cloud and start doing things again that bring me happiness.

Talk is cheap - I hope I can put all of these words to action!

Cadence,
Often times people who grow up in an alcoholic environment, gravitate to an alcoholic environment, maybe not even realizing they're doing it because they just feel more comfortable there. I know you say you're getting out but I'm wondering if this is your first relationship with a drunk or has it happened before. Just curious!!

Well, believe it or not - up until I met Ed, I NEVER dated anyone who drank (needless to say, the dating pool was very shallow) -- at the first sign that someone drank, I was gone. My ex husband was an ACoA but not a drinker. However, he learned his behaviours from his A father and was classified as a "dry drunk" by our therapist.
I met Ed after I made a decision to lighten up a bit (after being lectured by a friend about how I'd never find anyone who met my lofty standards). He SAID he didn't drink but it wasn't long before I noticed that he would have a beer or two in the evenings.... OK, a beer or two isn't bad but what I DIDN'T see were the 4 or 5 (or 6) that he had before I got there. It took him moving 2000 miles away, six months into our relationship, for me to realize he had a problem. That didn't happen until I visited him there and actually saw him on a 24/7 basis... that's when I realized that he was probably in his "happy place" by the time I'd get to his house (when he lived here).

It's been pretty much down hill from there. We've been "together" (if you can call it that with 2000 miles between us) for 19 mos. I was supposed to move out to where he is, this past June but I said I wouldn't do that if he didn't quit and get help - needless to say, he didn't quit and I didn't move.

Long story short:

The past ten months have been a series of broken promises, coverups, irrational arguments -- me telling him I can't be with him if he's drinking, him denying he has a problem, trying to cut a deal, saying he quit, followed by the inevitable irrational, drunken argument... confrontation, etc etc etc etc etc

This has happened several times and I've broken up with him twice in the past... each time I'd let him sweet talk me and charm me into believing that it'd be different... he got better at hiding the drinking (I've finally gotten to where I can usually tell over the phone), changed his calling pattern (no more late night calls), etc. This time, I broke up with him not because of a drunken argument, but because he made a promise to me (and I KNOW he was stone cold sober when he made it because he was here and there is no alcohol in my house) and he broke it. I'm tired of the disappointment. Tired of the stress... tired of the BS

I think for some people, such as myself, they know all that but still go back to the alcohol, I'm afraid it will take losing everything to get better or even attempt to get better

And what is it about your "mistress" - the alcohol - that makes you willing to risk losing everything? Do you think it won't happen to you? Are you impervious to the theory of cause and effect? What do you "gain" from the drinking that makes it worth it? :boggled:

I want to thank everyone for their input - it's been invaluable to me as far as coming to terms with the reality of my situation... Some of the posts have hit a nerve - it's not a bad thing though. I've been reading a lot of the threads in here as well as ACoA forum and Friends and Family forum and I've been really listening to what's being said and digesting everything. I think I finally "get it" I finally understand way deep down inside... Change is up to me.

One disease, two solitudes.
But the solution is the same for both.

Yes it is. I have my choices and he has his.
I'm choosing to move back on to the healthy ground that I had started to establish before I got caught up in the craziness of his addiction.
I'm going back to the "basics" - re-reading my books, keeping up with the posts here, in SR, finding an Alanon meeting that better suits my schedule so that I don't have any excuses to not go. Staying Honest, Open minded and Willing...

These past 24 hours have just been FULL of incredible changes INSIDE of me... Lightbulb moments coming so fast and furious that you'd think you were at a star-studded movie premier! It's been amazing and I know that this is only the proverbial tip of the iceberg... I know that I have to move on from acknowledging where the problem lies (in me) to making a plan for real change inside of me -- and then follow through, of course.

It's a beautiful day today - I'm going to go out with my daughters and enjoy every minute of it... and them. I'm not going to even THINK about him or his problems - instead, I am going to concentrate on ME and how I'm going to affect a change in me that will bring me to a more centered and serene life.

So we are cancer to everyone around us until we quit? I guess we either sink or swim, or take the ones we love down with us. I guess we are the damned.

Frankly, thinkingofwhen, this is one of the more depressing threads I've read on this forum. A non-drinker comes in here, basically asks us when we realized we were insane and what it took to change our behavior, came to the conclusion that her boyfriend was too far gone to salvage the relationship, thanked us and moved on.

"And what is it about your "mistress" - the alcohol - that makes you willing to risk losing everything? Do you think it won't happen to you? Are you impervious to the theory of cause and effect? What do you "gain" from the drinking that makes it worth it?"
What exactly was the point of that?! We're not impervious. We have (or had) a strong, compulsive behavior with a powerful physiological reward. Behavior that has been reinforced over a long period of time can be very difficult to change.

I don't know, I find myself wondering what made you attracted to this guy in the first place. His situation I can relate to. Yours I can't. I'm glad we helped you, but I'm not sure this was helpful to some people here.

Don S

Some of those around you can provide support when you make a commitment to abstinence; others might not. The relationships you forge as you achieve sobriety are part of what makes the effort worthwhile.

We aren't damned because we have abused substances--at least not in my theology! It is just behavior, and behavior can be changed.

Don S

Make any clarifications you think have to be made, im just trying to figure out the logic of what your giving her. I'm not saying its wrong or right, but I'm getting that people associated with our disease have to get the hell out. I'm sure many suffering here in silence may feel they are damned. Thank you for your help in clarrifying this. If the consensus is that I should shut the hell up, ok with me, but she is on the wrong board and should go to al anothon board. Peace.

Hi--maybe I read your post wrong. I thought you were describing how you felt about it, but you were saying what you thought she felt about it? I feel that this forum was being used as a sounding board for her decision to leave her boyfriend. You sound pretty disheartened, so I was replying to your tone more than anything.

I agree that many people probably feel that they are damned because of their drinking, and reading threads such as these in my opinion might increase that feeling. But it doesn't have to. If you're here, you've made or are in the process of making a decision to change. I think we know, at least somewhat, the effect our drinking had on people around us.

We may have made and broken promises before, so those who love us might be a little gunshy about accepting our words. So we can just quietly take action to commit to sobriety, make the changes in our lives that help with that decision, and hope that they'll judge us by the changes that they see.

I guess it's too late for Cadence's boyfriend. But that doesn't mean it's too late for you. For that matter, it doesn't mean he'll never quit drinking, either. We never know what will motivate us or others to make a decision for abstinence.
Don

No, not a cancer and not damned. I understand that it IS a disease. Those of us who love active alcoholics have a choice to stay or go and it's up to each and every one of us to decided when "enough is enough" - I guess the same way that it's up to each and every alcoholic to decided when "enough is enough" Being involved with an alcoholic usually involves abuse on some level - be it verbal, physical, emotional, psychological or some combination... and then you get into this really crazy dance where the A will warp what is going on and turn it all around to make it their partner's fault when the core problem lies in the drinking. Many/most active A's say and do amazing things to convince themselves, and everyone around them, that the alcohol is NOT the problem.

As far as my question to Paragonlost was concerned. It was not meant to be offensive, yet your reply suggests that you are offended. Those were honest questions - I really do NOT understand what alcohol *does* that makes someone who is normally very intelligent, oblivious to the consequences of their drinking.