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Trying to Understand

Old 10-29-2004, 06:03 PM
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Trying to Understand

I'm asking the alcoholics here this question - it doesn't matter if you're in a program or not - active or not. I'm not a drinker (at all) but I'm trying to understand the disease as well as the effect it is having on me (and has had on me in the past - I am an ACoA as well as involved with an A).

When is enough *ENOUGH*?
When does it finally effect you -- hurt you -- to the point where you throw up your hands and give up - and allow a transformation to occur at your deepest level?
At what point do the consequences outweigh the benefits? What (and how much) do you have to loose before you realize how much you've lost, how much you've wasted and thrown away?

Or are these just MORE reasons to pop a top and down another?

It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? The pain, the sadness, the lies and excuses... All of those problems created by the alcohol and the alcoholic mentality lead to the the loss of self esteem and self respect. The chemical depressant (alcohol) combined with the depression brought on by the problems, lead to the urge to numb the pain with another beer.... which in turn creates yet MORE pain, MORE sadness, MORE lies, MORE betrayal, MORE problems MORE depression and MORE numbing with the chemical depressant... At what point will all that is good in you SEE and take responsibility for what this disease is doing and finally yell "STOP!!" and do whatever it takes to take recovery seriously and be sane and sober again?

I understand but, then again, I haven't a clue. I do know that the insanity has reached its apex in my life. I'm no longer willing to tolerate the stress and uncertainty that this disease has created in my life. It's unacceptable and unwelcome.
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Old 10-29-2004, 07:20 PM
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Hi Cadence, I know you are wanting answers here, but it is such an individual thing.
We all come to that realization on our own time schedule. Also unfortunately some never come to the realization that they have a probem/disease and die in active alcoholism.
Some hit bottom before more severe things happen, others bottoms are very extreme.
I know some say as long as our partners stay with us enabling us (in our minds accepting it) we will not get the needed help.

Hope this helps you
Diana
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Old 10-29-2004, 07:30 PM
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For some of us I think, it was the absence of self esteem and self respect that led to alcoholism, not the other way around.
But you're right Cadence, once in the cycle, vicious describes it very well for some of us.
At what point will all that is good in you SEE and take responsibility for what this disease is doing and finally yell "STOP!!"
For me, again, it was the other way around. It's when I allowed myself to see what was good about me that I started climbing out of the pit. Not before then.
If I hadn't seen that, and somehow believed that I hadn't eaten away the good man I am rebuilding, I'd still be lying and abusing and blind to all and everything but my addiction and it's needs.

It was enough when I had enough.
An addict friend of mine is fond of saying... "I couldn't wait a day longer for recovery."
Clear as mud eh...
But that's how it was for me.
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Old 10-30-2004, 01:33 AM
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You have to believe there is a reason not to give up on life, in other words still have hope. This is the way I see it cause I'm still trying to figure this out myself.
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Old 10-30-2004, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Cadence57
When is enough *ENOUGH*?
When does it finally effect you -- hurt you -- to the point where you throw up your hands and give up - and allow a transformation to occur at your deepest level?
At what point do the consequences outweigh the benefits? What (and how much) do you have to loose before you realize how much you've lost, how much you've wasted and thrown away?

Or are these just MORE reasons to pop a top and down another?

It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? The pain, the sadness, the lies and excuses... All of those problems created by the alcohol and the alcoholic mentality lead to the the loss of self esteem and self respect. The chemical depressant (alcohol) combined with the depression brought on by the problems, lead to the urge to numb the pain with another beer.... which in turn creates yet MORE pain, MORE sadness, MORE lies, MORE betrayal, MORE problems MORE depression and MORE numbing with the chemical depressant... At what point will all that is good in you SEE and take responsibility for what this disease is doing and finally yell "STOP!!" and do whatever it takes to take recovery seriously and be sane and sober again?

I understand but, then again, I haven't a clue. I do know that the insanity has reached its apex in my life. I'm no longer willing to tolerate the stress and uncertainty that this disease has created in my life. It's unacceptable and unwelcome.
Hi Cadence,
I love it when people ask questions and then answer them in the same post. You have all the clues you need. The understanding??? I don't know about that. I don't know that anyone ever really understands. But, the clues are there. The question is, what are you willing to do about your situation? We have had enough, when we've had enough! You're the only person who knows whether or not you've had enough. Some people just have a deeper threshhold of pain.
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Old 10-30-2004, 07:52 AM
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Hi Cadence
Unforunately there is no telling when any individual addict will reach that point of giving up and realizing that they do not have a chance in hell of being a normal drinker and that abstinence is the only answer, or for that matter if once in recovery, that they will stay in recovery.
Today I am traveling out of town to go and visit with a good friend who is in the ICU of a hospital. Why...? Alcohol,
the insidious drug that takes our bodies and minds and literally destroys them.
She is in her mid 30's and her liver, kidneys, pancreas and heart are giving up their fight of processing alcohol out of her system.
I am praying very hard that she is ready to admit a problem and give up the booze. Many years ago she kicked a cocaine habit and has never been able to look at her drinking and say that there is a problem there as well.
This is my second close friend to have severe physical problems (life-threatening) with alcohol. The other friend is waiting for a new liver, and unfortunately has been unable to stay sober, so she will probably not end up getting a liver
and will probably die of this disease.
So as you can see the power of addiction is too much for some of us.
It helps keep me sober when I see the devastating affects of this seemingly innocent drug.
Trust your own instincts and act accordingly.
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Old 10-30-2004, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lonlion
I know some say as long as our partners stay with us enabling us (in our minds accepting it) we will not get the needed help.

Hope this helps you
Diana
Hi Diana,
Thanks - I don't think I've ever been an enabler as far as my A is concerned... if anything, he "doesn't drink" around me but, none the less, his drinking still has a detrimental effect on our relationship and I have reached the point where I can no longer tolorate it... He doesn't understand that "not drinking" doesn't solve the problem - the problems lie in the broken promises, the lies, manipulations, cover ups, etc etc etc. Honesty is, without a doubt, one of the MOST important things to me when it comes to my relationships with others and he's shown me (time and time and time again) that he's not honest and he can not be trusted.... if there's no trust in the relationship then there is nothing.
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Old 10-30-2004, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
For some of us I think, it was the absence of self esteem and self respect that led to alcoholism, not the other way around.
But you're right Cadence, once in the cycle, vicious describes it very well for some of us.
For me, again, it was the other way around. It's when I allowed myself to see what was good about me that I started climbing out of the pit. Not before then.
If I hadn't seen that, and somehow believed that I hadn't eaten away the good man I am rebuilding, I'd still be lying and abusing and blind to all and everything but my addiction and it's needs.

It was enough when I had enough.
An addict friend of mine is fond of saying... "I couldn't wait a day longer for recovery."
Clear as mud eh...
But that's how it was for me.

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the reply. I don't believe my A sees the good inside of himself. He appears to be very confident and self assured, and he talkes a great line of BS, but I think it's a facade... I don't think HE believes in his own goodness - and perhaps that plays a part in why he can not climb out... I doubt I've helped him in that area - I've been pretty blunt with him recently - pointing out all of his flaws and short comings.

<sigh> No matter what I say or what I do, it's wrong...
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Old 10-30-2004, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by thinkingofwhen22
You have to believe there is a reason not to give up on life, in other words still have hope. This is the way I see it cause I'm still trying to figure this out myself.

Thanks, Thinking. I don't think he's given up on life, per se... it's more like he's given up on himself.
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cadence57
Hi Diana,
Thanks - I don't think I've ever been an enabler as far as my A is concerned... if anything, he "doesn't drink" around me but, none the less, his drinking still has a detrimental effect on our relationship and I have reached the point where I can no longer tolorate it... He doesn't understand that "not drinking" doesn't solve the problem - the problems lie in the broken promises, the lies, manipulations, cover ups, etc etc etc. Honesty is, without a doubt, one of the MOST important things to me when it comes to my relationships with others and he's shown me (time and time and time again) that he's not honest and he can not be trusted.... if there's no trust in the relationship then there is nothing.
Cadence, you don't understand. You're enabling him just by being there. It's not that he doesn't understand, he doesn't care! His relationship with you takes a back seat to his relationship with alcohol. The only person you need to learn to trust is yourself and that you can save yourself a whole lot of emotional pain by cutting him loose until/unless he gets sober.
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Music
Hi Cadence,
I love it when people ask questions and then answer them in the same post. You have all the clues you need. The understanding??? I don't know about that. I don't know that anyone ever really understands. But, the clues are there. The question is, what are you willing to do about your situation? We have had enough, when we've had enough! You're the only person who knows whether or not you've had enough. Some people just have a deeper threshhold of pain.
Hi Music.
I grew up in the shadow and insanity of my parents' alcoholism - needless to say, my threshhold is pretty high... I have reached the point in my relationship with my A where "enough is enough" but... <sigh> I keep *hoping* that he'll... what... see the light? Have a revelation of sorts? SEE what his drinking is doing??? I dunno -- "in life and in love, hope springs eternal..." I'm a glutton for punishment. In the meantime I sent him a rather scathing letter (again) and I made it clear that I'm done with it all. Being involved with an A brings out the CRAZIES in me... I turn into a completely different person - it's not healthy.
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cadence57
No matter what I say or what I do, it's wrong...
Nope. Not wrong Cadence.
Just falling on deaf ears.
The sooner you face the fact that you're perhaps only background noise in his life, the better for you.
Are you surprised he talks a good B.S line? Say it ain't so.
It's one of the first things we learn to do as active addicts and alcoholics.
It's our main maintenance and survival tool.
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Music
Cadence, you don't understand. You're enabling him just by being there. It's not that he doesn't understand, he doesn't care! His relationship with you takes a back seat to his relationship with alcohol. The only person you need to learn to trust is yourself and that you can save yourself a whole lot of emotional pain by cutting him loose until/unless he gets sober.
I never considered being there as enabling but, yes, I guess as long as I'm there I'm saying it's "OK" (and it's NOT). I do understand that he doesn't care - he's made it incredibly clear on too many occassions.

I recently cut him loose (see previous post). Needless to say, I'm hoping it makes a difference but I doubt it will - I'm not the first woman he's cared about who has left because of his drinking, no doubt I won't be the last. He doesn't expect any relationship to last and now I understand why.
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Nope. Not wrong Cadence.
Just falling on deaf ears.
The sooner you face the fact that you're perhaps only background noise in his life, the better for you.
Are you surprised he talks a good B.S line? Say it ain't so.
It's one of the first things we learn to do as active addicts and alcoholics.
It's our main maintenance and survival tool.
Ouch...Background noise... Yes, I suppose I am...
No, I'm not surprised that he talks a good BS line - what I AM surprised about is how many times I've bought in to it and how many times I was hurt by and and how many times I realized that it is just all BS (and then went back for more!).... He's a real charmer - witty, caring and seemingly sincere. I am sure that those qualities are PART of his real self but he uses them to unarm the unsuspecting... color me blind...

I'm getting a much better *feel* for the disease. My folks were alcoholics but they didn't use any "tactics" - they drank, got drunk and such was life. There didn't seem to be a lot of manipulations and BS in the home but I have no idea how their friends saw them.

I'm finding this honesty from you all to be rather... unsettling... but that's a good thing. Seems to me that if it comes from the horse's mouth one would
be wise to listen up and learn so's not to make the same mistakes again.... I'm listening (and taking notes!)

Thanks
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KelKel
Hi Cadence
Unforunately there is no telling when any individual addict will reach that point of giving up and realizing that they do not have a chance in hell of being a normal drinker and that abstinence is the only answer, or for that matter if once in recovery, that they will stay in recovery.
Today I am traveling out of town to go and visit with a good friend who is in the ICU of a hospital. Why...? Alcohol,
<snip>
Trust your own instincts and act accordingly.
Hi Kel,
I'm SO sorry about your friend. My mother's alcoholism killed her in much the same way that you described. Her liver, kidneys and pancreas shut down. Cancer took over and she was dead within weeks. It was a HORRIBLE death - she was in excruciating pain as her insides were eaten away by the cancer.
You and your friend are in my prayers.
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:24 PM
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Perhaps only background noise, I believe I wrote.
Either way, it's clear you're unhappy and that the actions needed to restore yourself to happiness have to come from you.
Any hope that your significant other will somehow contribute to this while still drinking is pointless.
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Perhaps only background noise, I believe I wrote.
Either way, it's clear you're unhappy and that the actions needed to restore yourself to happiness have to come from you.
Any hope that your significant other will somehow contribute to this while still drinking is pointless.
No "perhaps" about it - I'm pretty sure I was just his background noise.
Unhappy is an understatement. I'm working on getting back to my normal, happy, upbeat self... This black cloud MUST go. Today I went out and hung with my horse after work - it was very theraputic, and if the weather cooperates, I'll ride tomorrow.
I'm amazed at how much all of this insanity has effected me... There is a sense of depression that has held me hostage and kept me from going out and doing things (instead of waiting for him to call) and the less I do for me, the more depressed I'd get... another vicious circle, isnt' it?
I don't expect ANYONE to take responsibility for my happiness - but on the other hand, I guess that means I have to stop blaming him for my UNhappiness too -- the bottom line is that I know I'm the one responsible for how I feel and now that I've extricated myself from this relationship, I'm hoping I can blow past that black cloud and start doing things again that bring me happiness.

Talk is cheap - I hope I can put all of these words to action!
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Old 10-30-2004, 04:03 PM
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Cadence,
Often times people who grow up in an alcoholic environment, gravitate to an alcoholic environment, maybe not even realizing they're doing it because they just feel more comfortable there. I know you say you're getting out but I'm wondering if this is your first relationship with a drunk or has it happened before. Just curious!!
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Old 10-30-2004, 04:26 PM
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Well, believe it or not - up until I met Ed, I NEVER dated anyone who drank (needless to say, the dating pool was very shallow) -- at the first sign that someone drank, I was gone. My ex husband was an ACoA but not a drinker. However, he learned his behaviours from his A father and was classified as a "dry drunk" by our therapist.
I met Ed after I made a decision to lighten up a bit (after being lectured by a friend about how I'd never find anyone who met my lofty standards). He SAID he didn't drink but it wasn't long before I noticed that he would have a beer or two in the evenings.... OK, a beer or two isn't bad but what I DIDN'T see were the 4 or 5 (or 6) that he had before I got there. It took him moving 2000 miles away, six months into our relationship, for me to realize he had a problem. That didn't happen until I visited him there and actually saw him on a 24/7 basis... that's when I realized that he was probably in his "happy place" by the time I'd get to his house (when he lived here).

It's been pretty much down hill from there. We've been "together" (if you can call it that with 2000 miles between us) for 19 mos. I was supposed to move out to where he is, this past June but I said I wouldn't do that if he didn't quit and get help - needless to say, he didn't quit and I didn't move.

Long story short:

The past ten months have been a series of broken promises, coverups, irrational arguments -- me telling him I can't be with him if he's drinking, him denying he has a problem, trying to cut a deal, saying he quit, followed by the inevitable irrational, drunken argument... confrontation, etc etc etc etc etc

This has happened several times and I've broken up with him twice in the past... each time I'd let him sweet talk me and charm me into believing that it'd be different... he got better at hiding the drinking (I've finally gotten to where I can usually tell over the phone), changed his calling pattern (no more late night calls), etc. This time, I broke up with him not because of a drunken argument, but because he made a promise to me (and I KNOW he was stone cold sober when he made it because he was here and there is no alcohol in my house) and he broke it. I'm tired of the disappointment. Tired of the stress... tired of the BS
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Old 10-30-2004, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cadence57
I'm asking the alcoholics here this question - it doesn't matter if you're in a program or not - active or not. I'm not a drinker (at all) but I'm trying to understand the disease as well as the effect it is having on me (and has had on me in the past - I am an ACoA as well as involved with an A).

When is enough *ENOUGH*?
When does it finally effect you -- hurt you -- to the point where you throw up your hands and give up - and allow a transformation to occur at your deepest level?
At what point do the consequences outweigh the benefits? What (and how much) do you have to loose before you realize how much you've lost, how much you've wasted and thrown away?

Or are these just MORE reasons to pop a top and down another?

It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? The pain, the sadness, the lies and excuses... All of those problems created by the alcohol and the alcoholic mentality lead to the the loss of self esteem and self respect. The chemical depressant (alcohol) combined with the depression brought on by the problems, lead to the urge to numb the pain with another beer.... which in turn creates yet MORE pain, MORE sadness, MORE lies, MORE betrayal, MORE problems MORE depression and MORE numbing with the chemical depressant... At what point will all that is good in you SEE and take responsibility for what this disease is doing and finally yell "STOP!!" and do whatever it takes to take recovery seriously and be sane and sober again?
I think for some people, such as myself, they know all that but still go back to the alcohol, I'm afraid it will take losing everything to get better or even attempt to get better
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