I don't think I can get on the AA bus
 

I've been to about 10 AA meetings and I'm struggling with a lot of the dogma. Today we read the beginning of Chapter 5 "How It Works".

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."

This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.

This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.

How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.

lb,

i went to my first AA meeting when i had been sober a while with peer support in a secular support group.
the chair in that meeting gave me ' how it works' to read at the meeting opening.
i was outraged, absolutely outraged, at the exact sentence you highlighted.
the condescension!
the arrogance!

i couldn't possibly........reconcile??

and as i was yacking with my buddies about the horror of all this and how of course i could never......into my mind popped a post i had just written a day or two prior to this, a post where i mentioned my conclusion i had reached, and something i had come to believe deeply: that my chances of ongoing sobriety depended to the greatest degree on my ongoing honesty with myself.

really, we were saying the same thing.

as for the other part you raise, yes, it pretty much implies success if you honestly thoroughly follow the suggested path.

so does AVRT, with, to my opinion, the exact same circular logic. not here to argue the point.

the HOW acronym works well across the board, i figure, no matter which route: honesty, openness, willingness.

I used to fervently wish I was one of those unfortunates.

The way I interpret this sentence is that there really are people who can't be honest . I've been in several relationships where people truly do not seem to have that capacity. It's not their fault - something happened in nature or nurture to cause it.

I think in your case, the corollary would be "some people can't be cured of their diseases through no fault of their own.

(There's no mention of praying in the passage you cite, just unfortunate facts of being human.)

Why does it need to be reconciled?

What is your plan for future drinking?

I plan to stay sober. I'm not sure if I need AA to stick to this plan given the philosophical differences I have with the program. I do want to work on myself spiritually and emotionally, but I think there are other ways to do this.

I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.

You're not alone, it bothers a lot of people. When it was written, there really weren't any alternatives. But to continue to say it today is pretty dishonest. There are alternatives, and they do work. Just try SMART or one of the others, that's what I did.

Because there are other programs that also work. And for some people, those programs are a better fit. A person isn't an 'unfortunate' just because they don't follow the AA path.

You're not necessarily wrong and there are plenty of folks in the rooms who would likely agree with you. That said, I would suggest the old approach of "take what you need, and leave the rest." You can get sober without giving up your capacity for critical thinking, or agreeing with every word in the book.

JT79
I was not clear, too blunt , I meant that I don't believe it is reconcilable.
Most people in the world and throughout history have never been to their meetings nor read any of their literature.
People quit when they decide to never drink again , regardless of whatever ' program they follow' , you either arrive at/ make the decision or not , 'programs' have little to do with it and/or complicate arriving at it.

You are clearly looking for differences between you and those in AA who work the program. This is your head telling you that this won't work so why bother. Your mind is simply talking out out of taking the steps and following the program. I think most people go through this until they suffer enough that they finally give in and follow the program.

The program is simple but not easy. It's simple because right now you just need to find a temporary sponsor and do all the things they ask of you. That's it, simple. Things like going to regular meetings a few times a week, reading the Big Book and some other things you will find helpful.

Your thinking if flawed and you really need to listen to the advice of others for awhile. If you follow the program and the steps it will all come together and make sense. You have to get past that destructive voice in your head and your ego and you need to let go and listen to those who have been through the process and know it saves lives.

I'm doing it despite its faults. Yeah that's a weird statement, especially how it's worded, "unfortunates..." But it's not the kind of thing I hear from the actual people in the meeting. I don't love it. But I can't do it on my own. Can't. Can you? I need help from other alcoholics.

Arguing with sobriety is the path back to hell. This is why the 1st step is the most crucial in admitting we have a problem. We as alcoholics usually have a massive ego when it comes to that, which needs to be eliminated.
Alcohol is nuclear weapon with all arms on deck against us, while we are standing alone, yet somehow seem to think we will win,...

I also tripped up on that "unfortunates" phrases, and never really got over it. I mean, it's one person's opinion, perhaps phrased in a way that Bill W. didn't quite mean, but it's been turned into a kind of dogma over the years. It also gave me a nice excuse to keep up serial relapsing, after all I guess I'm one of those unfortunates, might as well just drink. ;) To me it wasn't about honesty, that wasn't the key word - it was about being unwilling or unable to give themselves to the program, thus failing. I couldn't do it. Other folks aren't bothered by this section, or interpret it differently, but it did bother me a lot, and it was one of the motivations I had to find something else that worked better for me.

My personal experience with AA has been less than positive. The groups here tend to be "bitch sessions," and even the folks with multiple years of sobriety are poor examples of what sobriety is (in my opinion). There's a great deal of "13th stepping," again by the long-timers. I'm fortunate to have a great network of friends who have been nothing but supportive, and I'm good with that. I'm learning that it doesn't matter how you stay sober, just that you do. Good thoughts for you.

AA can be a life saver or a stumbling block. Do what you need to do to stay sober. If that is swallowing some pride and continuing with AA, cool. If it is Rational Recovery and other methods, great. But keep doing it!

Our findings are shedding light on how AA helps people recover from addiction over time," says Harvard Medical School Associate Professor of Psychiatry John F. Kelly. "The results suggest that social context factors are key; the people who associate with individuals attempting to begin recovery can be crucial to their likelihood of success.”
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...makes-aa-work/

Each AA group is automatous and the vibes vary. What's important is you find a few meetings in which you feel comfortable sharing your concerns. Most people in AA aren't going to get upset if you ask a lot of questions. On the other hand if you do find yourself feeling pressured find another meeting.

Good luck.

I'd more or less decided I must be one of those 'unfortunates'. But then one day I realised I was just looking for an excuse (as I usually tended to do, and can still find myself doing now if I don't watch myself), and that I was ignoring what came first...'Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.' I realised that actually, THAT was me. I was so scared of steps 4, 5 and 9 that I was entally refusing to get a sponsor and just do it. My willingness kind of stopped at drinking coffee, listening to others (well, half-listening, because the stuff about the steps didn't really apply to ME, did it!!) and waiting for the Sober-Fairy to come and sprinkle me with recovery dust.

When I got my sponsor she told me that most people think they might be one of the Unfortunates for a while, but that what they meant by that was people who really were delusional or had mental impairment / special needs.

Dunno if any of that's useful in any way, but that was my own experience of it.

Whichever route we take has to involve self-honesty though. Otherwise we continue to believe our own rationalisations (excuses) for drinking and for behaving in ways that make us feel bad. And once we've rationalised it, the next step is doing it.

Whatever you decide - I wish you all the best for your sobriety and recovery.

BB

You're reading into it too much. The book was written when only 75-100 people had gotten sober. They (Bill W.) took from the small sample size characteristics that he thought were successful and unsuccessful. If you haven't done the 12 steps with a sponsor, I would suggest trying them before judging a program that has been successful for so many.

As far as the dogma, you'll find fundamentalist and practical AA goers. The steps are to help an alcoholic have a psychic change. Our disease isn't physical it becomes that through addiction but to remain sober we need spirituality. That's where the honesty comes in. We (alcoholics) have a great imagination of events that didn't happen. We have resentments for no reason at all. We hold grudges for no reason. We are victims of our own imagination. etc etc etc

If AA isn't for you, then I pray you find a program that is. I also hope that if the next program isn't going to work for whatever reason, you don't try to create controversy by picking a portion of it apart without giving it an honest effort.

Good luck

That is not what the BB is saying.

In 2017 there are alternatives to AA which work for many individuals. Not everyone is a fan of Alcoholics Anonymous and that's alright.

When I got sober in 1993 there wasn't the internet, I had no insurance and no money for a rehab center.

AA was the only game in town.

I didn't have to pay any dues and although there was often a pecking order in the meetings based on length of sobriety no one was really in charge.

I didn't find it difficult to attend meetings and meet members who helped introduce the program to me in a way I could related. In the end I found a lot more similarities than differences in AA.

I went to AA for years. Back in the mid 90's, i went to an all men's group who were extremists in how they applied the steps in their lives.

Everything was black and white. With these guys, you're either willing to do what they say, or you're doomed to repeat the past. That's how they understood ...

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."

To me, that was fu#ked. That passage can mean 10 different things.

This is where I think people start to stumble. They take those words in their literal meaning and run with them. Then for whatever reason when the new person reaches an inpasse, such as the 4th, the 5th and 9th step they decide they simply cannot go any further..Then they give up, drink and they go back to step 1.

I had a terrible time with 4 and 5. I honestly had no want or need to unburden my soul to someone who was just my sponsor.

So does this mean you are constitutionally incapable of success at AA? They thought so.

Well, that's just one group...

Fast forward 25 years and I've gone to 1 AA meeting since I got out of IOP. I've stayed sober longer than i ever have in my life. However, i do attend therapy. And tomorrow i will have 19 months.

So do i believe there is another way? Hell yes.

For me, therapy is FAR more beneficial than AA ever was. I believed in the fellowship and the working with another struggling soul, but in a lot of ways-even those with 25 years or more, it was still the diseased blind leading the diseased blind. I think the sickness itself, or at least mine can be most helped by a professional.

I think you can still benefit from AA if you can seperate yourself from it's literal interpretation. Just take what you need and leave the rest.

It only has to be as complicated as you allow it to be.

Good luck, and hang in there.

When I was new there was one member who made it a point of saying I'd end up in the gutter if I didn't follow lock step with what he said

I got the feeling he was more upset with me not wanting him as a sponsor than anything else

Looking back he might have been sober but he was still damaged.

Before getting sober he attempted suicide, had two failed marriages and changed his family name because he hated them.

An angry man who could have benefited from professional help.

Couple things....10 meetings really isn't a lot to understand AA. Have you talked to others? Perhaps get a sponsor? There is so much to learn- straight up facts and suggestions - note "suggestions," as that is what AA is, suggestions made by people who have followed a simple laid out program for living sober.

It's a total change of thinking and way of life.

My dad used to tell me I could try to think my way out of my problem- he hadn't seen that work for anyone - maybe there were some, he'd say, but he'd seen a lot that AA did work for.

Our alcoholic minds can reason up a whole lot of things to counter and denounce recovery- in any progam.

You said "I plan to stay sober." OK, how? That's the key- IMO and IME and from what I see of those who successfully stay sober- action and a real PROGRAM of living not just "dry" but in recovery.

Just my $0.02+

I disagree. There are many paths to the same endpoint. You have to give in and decide your life is better without drinking or that you will never drink again. There is AVRT, which I have used and SMART, as mentioned above.

But you don't have to give in and follow the program or feel that is the only way.

Lots of options to get and stay sober these days. I consider daily visits to SR to be one of the best! We need to support one another, regardless of the methods we choose.

Shoot. I think I wasn't clear on my earlier post.

The way I read this passage may well be incorrect, but here's the way I reconcile it: Bill was saying, "Our way works! Unfortunately, some people try our way and even when they do their best to go all in, they keep drinking. From what we've seen, those folks can't do it (our way) because they simply can't get honest with themselves. And it's not their fault because we know they really really tried.

I am more than a little ignorant about AA history, but it seems that even then (most) people would think "but if you do succeed some other way, bully on you!" I know a little more about human character and some people in the program certainly became puffed up with their own success and
started putting their own gruff and righteous spin on things. Personally, I haven't seen much (or any) of that in real life though I've heard of it - and sometimes read it here.

Anyhow, I don't think that passage means You Suck if You Can't Do It Our Way. I think it means if you Go All In, the only way we've seen it fail is with people who can't get honest with themselves. End of sentence. Leaves lots of room for doing it other ways, in my opinion.

O

I'm an AAer.

Yes, I've struggled with some AA philosophies, especially the one you quoted. My criticisms of AA have kept me away from the program at times.

I can only speak for myself, but in my experience I used my misgivings as an excuse to go back out and drink. When I get back on board with the program, I stay sober.

I spent years trying to find the "fix" for my alcoholism, to find the program/method that would "work" for me. I went to rehab, I had addiction counselling, therapy, blahblahblah.

But I was looking for an external fix that would do all the work for me. What I really need to stay sober is the right attitude and mindset, and I find that AA greatly encourages that in me.

In today's day and age, there are thankfully many programs and methods to assist us in sobriety. Explore them and see what feels right for you, but be mindful of your motivations for writing any of them off. It could be your addiction looking for an "out".

I think I took it literally when I was new to AA. What it meant to me was that I needed to be rigorously honest in the way I lived my life, and with myself, and that I needed to completely give myself to the simple program if I wanted to recover.

I was out of options. I was in what a professor of psychiatry and expert in alcohol addiction described as a small group at the most severe end of the alcohol use disorder spectrum for who some kind of conversion experience was the only hope. And he said AA were the experts in that.

Maybe that was the first practical application of self honesty, recognising the true nature of my situation, swallowing my pride, and giving myself to the program.

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path is a true statement in my experience. On the other hand, possibly because alcoholics of my type are constantly told they have other options, a cynic might write - rarely do we see a person thoroughly follow our path. Why would they if they think they can get away with less.

Nearly every I tried AA and failed post, actually means the writer went to a few meetings and wasn't feeling any benefit. Meetings are not the program, and do not treat alcoholism. Unfortunately they are often mislead into believing that don't drink and go to meetings is the program, and keep coming back. Take what you like and leave the rest? Five and nine were the most beneficial steps to me, and they were the steps I would have left if I had held any reservations. Half measure availed us nothing was also true for me.

I know at the time I was too stupefied to argue or challenge anything. I just gave myself completely to this simple program. Stupid of me? Bad judgement? Who knows? But I did recover.

And there it is, the crux of the matter.

However we do it - THAT is the end goal. Period.

It can be a tough thing. I found it hard to relate with 90% of what is in the Big Book, though in my case it was a real case of denial--and waiting for the progression to happen.