I thought Aleister Crowley and the OTO were mentioned earlier on...maybe I ran them off with my Kool Aid ;)

Cant be Freemasons. I havent been to a single meeting where a keg has been tapped.

Sorry guys, this is way over my head, too deep or too serious for me. I'm just a plain Jane...Just trying to stay sober.

. oops, almost gave away my anonymity.

Endlesspatience ~

I found your Post to be extremely thoughtful, and very well written. Obviously sincere. I'm glad it got moved to a Forum area where it could play out with minimal Censorship. The Thread 'View' count of ~4,330 speaks volumes.

Back when I was a '[W]ussy Tennis Player' in High School, our Tennis Coach from the U.K. helped teach us to take the proverbial High Road. And, he conveyed the Truism that one only gets better if/when you play someone better. Decades later, I morphed this Lesson into hanging here - and in Carbon-based, F2F Life - with inspirational Folks who could teach me something about Sobriety. Simple Statistics would indicate that not everyone can. Such is the Bell Curve of the Sobered-up Population.

Int'l Biz Travel to some 18 Countries before my Early Retirement at age 48 taught me that Folks do things in very fundamentally-different ways. Many feel their way is 'right', and can't get past the tightly-held notion that others feel the same passion about their very-different Methods. In Japan, Housewives really catch it from their Neighborhood Peers unless they wrap and bundle their Household Trash in a neat manner, and put it Street-side in the 'only' acceptable manner. This sort of conformance leads to Civility in that tightly-packed Country. I thought of this Japanese Saying when I first read your Post: 'The Nail that stands up gets hammered down'. Other Posts in this Thread testify to near-identical experiences as you've had. I don't argue, or second guess, First Person Accounts posted here anonymously. To do so is arrogant, IMO.

To a degree perhaps greater than you anticipated, you've now got a plethora of POVs to sort through. Some absolutely stunned me. I'll reconcile that conundrum near-term.

A notion here that repeats periodically, when Folks post 'Am I An Alcoholic?', is: 'if you have to even ask yourself that question, you already know the answer'.

The last sentence of your Thread-starting Post poses the same sort of question. I would suggest that you, too, now know the answer to what you asked.

Sincere Best Wishes in finding your own Path. To do so is extremely rewarding, and lasting.

-----

I don't like holding hands with a bunch of screwed up people I don't know. I'll tell my therapist about my feelings of self worth, my childhood abuse story and all the screwed up crap I did while drunk. I never found it helpful to tell a room full of strangers those things. In fact it just made me more anxious and dread going to any meetings. I don't like being in churches or dank basements. I don't know, maybe I just went to crappy meetings. That and I wasn't serious about quitting. Now I am.

So I'm here. Reading books, on meds. Enjoying my "2nd puberty" as I call it. All these new feelings and actual clear thoughts, etc. etc.

Amen.

It's on the way. Just recently the FDA relaxed its extremely rigid testing rules regarding new drugs for treating alcoholism. It used to be that if 1 single person relapsed, the drug fails and was thrown out. That's like putting xanax on a clinical trial for 100 people, and if it stopped panic attacks in all but 1 person, the drug is thrown out. I have no idea why the rules were like this. But they just changed this month.

Give it another 5 to 7 years and there will be more than 3 approved drugs out on the market. It's loooong overdue.

Meh. Worst run cult I've ever heard of. :p

All people who share interests have outliers. I Zumba. There are great people who Zumba, fit and can dance. There are weirdos who Zumba. There are uncoordinated people who Zumba. There are vocal purists who feel it should be strictly Latin music and others want to throw in Bollywood.

The point is that it doesn't say anything about Zumba or dancing, it is people being people. And! AA is full of alcoholics. I see it as a colorful array of society. On my good days. Lol

Pages back I saw a few references to agnostic meetings being all about attacking AA/God etc. The regular agnostic meeting I attend rarely devolves into and generally frowns on that behavior, and the convention I attended last November was anything but a bash-fest.

As I am an enthusiastic participant in this emerging subgroup within AA, thought that needed to be pointed out.

I have to concur with earlier statements about the fact that if AA is a cult it is the most ineffective cult ever established in the long and sordid history of human idiocy.

A few years back I found myself deeply in need of a spiritual path of some sort and went shopping for the Truth in the religious mega mall that is the United States of America. I traveled to many monasteries and sat with a lot of gurus, teachers, priests, and sages, most of which were perfectly nice and interesting fellows but many of which also had a distinct inability to smell what they were shoveling. I did find a couple of people that I considered very wise - perhaps even holy - and then there were a couple of brushes with some folks who were genuinely manipulative, charming, and sinister, all of which I would consider pretty definitive qualities of a cult. I found that the people that made the most sense were those that were primarily focused on their own inner-change, their own path, their own Tao, and through whatever transformation and peace they acquired they tried to pass this on to others in the form of an invitation, an open embrace. The creepy ones, the cults, were trying to sell you something, trying to get you to like them, cozying up to you with a demonic combination of religious ideology and American salesmanship.

I'm not the biggest fan of AA but I definitely respect the people there and the program as a whole. If you're completely closed to a spiritual path serving as a part of your sobriety don't even consider it. But if you're at least open to such a concept AA can be of help (it's not for everybody, of course). And it is most definitely not a cult. Or if it is, it is an amazingly benevolent and ineffective cult. In my experience, no one there is trying to sell you anything. In fact, the attitude always seems to be "Here's this thing; take it or leave it." Everyone is very supportive but most seem very careful not to get too worried about anyone else. They've got their own **** to deal with. And this is a very good thing indeed. I even get the feeling that my sponsor wouldn't lose more than a half hour of sleep if I fell of the wagon, which I am very happy with. He supports me and tries to guide me but I'm working out my own trip and he's working out his.

I say this with great respect, but AA is mostly just a bunch of old farts sitting around drinking coffee and telling stories (all good things in my book). If that's a cult then surely Thulsa Doom is spinning in his grave.

When all else fails, refer to the dictionary.

cult


n.noun

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. NOPE

The followers of such a religion or sect.

A system or community of religious worship and ritual. Hmmmm HOPE

The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. AGAIN, NOPE

Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. NO

The object of such devotion.

An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest. Hmmmmm NOPE

Its human nature to call things what they arent. As you can see, AA is not a cult in any sense of the word. You can come and go as you please. You do not even need a desire, or an honest desire to stop drinking to attend AA meetings. You can show up drunk if you want. You can speak if you please.
Now the Big Book is called a TEXT BOOK, it is meant to be studied. Like a Math Text Book, you attend Math class to learn about Math. Likewise with AA. You can if you please talk about the weather, or traffic, or your boss, or maybe science, or fiction books. You will not be looked up too in any sense of the word, you will likely be put into that sort of "member" that never really talks about Math in Math Class. No real contribution to the solution.

I do not think AA is a cult. But I used to, because in my experience I did encounter cultlike elements in AA:



"A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. "

Maybe not the originator, but I was told by other members that AA had exclusive power to cure alcoholism.


"Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing."

I was told that the BB had the answer to every problem I would encounter in life.


Also, I was asked to cut off contact with friends not in the program (even though it was these friends who persuaded me to go into recovery).

There were willingness tests that had to be passed before one was accepted as a real member of the group.


While I know that my experience is not universal, I think it helps to explain that some people consider AA a cult with good reason. However, the patience and clarity of people on SR, showed me that many people NEVER encounter this cultlike behavior in AA.

So what I propose is to apply "attraction not promotion" to this issue. Act with a freedom and openness that will attract people to the proposition that AA is not a cult. This ultimately has a lot more power than trying to promote the point, since people will always trust their experience rather than an argument, however logical.

Make doubters experience of AA members be non-culty and it might change minds.

I'm currently in San Diego Cal. which is a major US city with a large number of daily meetings. And while it's true you can find meetings which exhibit a cult-like vibe they aren't the norm.

Personally, I try and avoid such nonsense.

For those who think AA is a cult, its like saying well since some groups chant the Lords Prayer, then AA must be a religion. False yet again!

So, if it isn't religious, why chant the Lords Prayer... You know, the instructions that Jesus gave when asked how to pray? And many Federal Courts would disagree with you about AA not being religious.

Lord's prayer or whatever prayer at the end of AA meetings.
AA is not for everyone.
But, it has proven to be next to perfect for many.

Sometimes I stick around for the prayer, other times I don't, ain't no big deal.
The prayer is not the main point of the meeting.

I agree with about 75% of what all I read and hear there, the rest I leave behind.
Kind of reminds me of life in general.

Mountainmanbob

Didn't some guy just get a couple million over that?

What we need to remember is that going to AA is not like going to school.
No one there is forced to do anything.
It has always been known as a place where,
one is recommended to take what they want and leave the rest.

I stay away from the hardliners there and work the Program and prayers that work for me.

By the way, don't they still occasionally pray in Congress ?
Has not the President prayed in public ?
Do those ones take an oath ?
An oath on what ?
I didn't see anybody throwing stones at them ?

That's what's nice about living in a free country -- pray, don't pray -- do what you wish.

MM

Each AA group is autonomous and the group conscious decides which prayer, if any, are used in their meetings. My guess is that there are more groups that don't use the Lord's Prayer than there are groups that do use it. Many groups use the Serenity Prayer to close their meetings now (also a Christian prayer but for some unknown reason is more accepted by non Christians).

As for your use of the word "chant", I'm assuming by the way you use the word chant it must be your belief that if any group of people hold hands and recite anything they would be chanting? Because at the end of AA meetings the group simply recites the Lord's Prayer (or Serenity Prayer) in unison, but they definitely aren't chanting.

Chant

1.
a. A series of syllables or words that are sung on or intoned to the same note or a limited range of notes.
b. A canticle or prayer sung or intoned in this manner.
2. A monotonous rhythmic call or shout, as of a slogan: the chant of the crowd at the rally.

Now if we were discussing slogans, then yes some in AA do chant slogans, which for the record I don't participate in (but without judgement). Judgement, along with tolerance (or lack of), seem to be what's really at the heart of most of the threads on this topic. I am just pointing this out to show how those with a bias against AA (or anything for that matter) like to put their own personal slant on things by using words that are inaccurate for what they are describing, whether intentional or unintentional.

No one is forced to say the Lord's Prayer (or any other prayer) in a meeting. No one is forced to stand in the circle and hold hands while the Lord's Prayer (or any other prayer) is being said. No one is forced to stay in the same room at the end of the meeting while the Lord's Prayer (or any other prayer) is being said. No one is forced to go to a meeting that uses the Lord's Prayer (or any other prayer). No one is forced to go to any AA meetings if they are afraid they may hear any type of prayer there.

For that matter no one is forced to work the 12 steps in AA. No one is forced to read the Big Book in AA. No one is forced to say or do anything in AA. It's up to each individual to decide to what extent they want to participate in the program. No one is forced to come back to meetings if they don't enjoy them or get anything out of them. IMO most of these discussions on AA are disingenuous at best. No rational person would expend as much time and effort as some here about a program they have no interest in using, unless they have ulterior motives for doing so.

Ahhh, that felt good. :D :D :D

The poster above me used the word chant... I just went with his language.