SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/)
-   Alcoholism (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism/)
-   -   Mixed feelings about AA being a cult (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism/360187-mixed-feelings-about-aa-being-cult.html)

bemyself 02-25-2015 05:51 PM

Just wanted to pop my head in whilst waiting for this AOD worker to take me to the doctor....

Only a few random thoughts, gleaned over several years now:

Orange papers letters in particular (and there are now thousands of them) are very instructive of so many people's real life experiences in AA. And A Orange's replies are invariably courteous. Yes, his site is somewhat overburdened with glaring changes of fonts and so forth (a bit hard on the eyes) but his researches are deep and mostly well-argued.

Agnostica AA site is the one for me lately, even now I've stopped attending my meetings. The primary essayists and respondents (commenters) are almost ALL long time AA members; many with 20 and 30 PLUS years sobriety whilst battling along in AA. They have written extraordinarily erudite and well researched bits of AA history, prosecuted well-founded arguments as to the ways in which latter day AA has become somewhat (!) infested with fundamentalists, especially the so called 'back to basics' / Wally P / lineage of zealots. They have only a few days ago posted about their efforts to seek a compilation of stories of atheist / agnostic/ freethinkers to be published in a full book by Grapevine. The response, from GSO (?) in New York is to say the least, frightfully underwhelming.

I mention this because one of my chief anxieties about virtually ALL of the now hundreds of meetings I've attended (and chaired) here in Melbourne, is that the back to basics / zealot crowd have and continue to drive more of us away than 'keep us coming back'. You only need a handful of them in any one meeting on any one day, and - as I said to my AOD worker (who got sober in AA /NA USA) - one feels like one requires a pretorian guard around one to be able to duck and weave before and especially after a meeting. In order to leave that meeting feeling just a teensy bit like an ordinary, unique, thinking individual.

I've lost count of the numbers of times in meetings when I've squirmed, felt nauseous, angry (yes, angry! Buddha forbid), frankly dead bored, extremely uncomfortable with the ritualisation methods of most meetings, the finger-wagging and blatant cross-talk from someone 'sharing' to us recalcitrants [this happened to me only a few weeks ago and the chair did nothing, so I up rose from my seat and chastised this B2B bully, a big loutish true believer Harley Rider]. Quel horreur! Of course, in the usual course of things / the Steps / AA as it is now, I'm the one who's considered 'sick'.

No thanks.

If I lived in a few parts of the States, where there are civilized agnostic style meetings (yes, even with re-written, updated steps and so forth), maybe I'd cope a lot better.

There are so few other f2f daily or weekly alternatives, like SMART, LifeRing, Women for Sobriety, etc etc on the ground for a recovering or still suffering drunk to go to. In most places there are none. AA is IT. It's most beneficial aspect - somewhere to go for an hour or two, just for some allegedly like-minded company and to get out of one's own head - has become over the decades severely corrupted. And even in the more even-minded meetings, one can NEVER be heard or engage in a thoughtful and open-minded chat about all the other more MODERN ways of approaching or treating alcoholism / addiction.

I just despair.

Dee74 02-25-2015 06:12 PM

I am going to have to lay down some ground rules here.

we don't allow links to a certain orange site.

Whatever your opinion of the site and its content, it's covered in rule 2:


Do not post content or links or materials to and from sites that flame someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program/method.
therefore that site is off topic.

This is a long standing position, it works well here for the community at large, and it's not open for discussion.

thanks

Dee
Moderator
SR

Carlotta 02-25-2015 06:13 PM


And even in the more even-minded meetings, one can NEVER be heard or engage in a thoughtful and open-minded chat about all the other more MODERN ways of approaching or treating alcoholism / addiction.
With all due respect, I go to AA and I also have attended Women For Sobriety (which is also a good program just conflicting schedules). When in AA, I would not talk about the new life acceptance program any more than I would talk about the 12 steps at a WFS meeting.
The same way I would not start kicking a soccer ball on a baseball field or read the new testament in a synagogue. That's just common sense.

esinger 02-25-2015 06:21 PM

Not all Harley riders are big, loutish true believers bemyself.

courage2 02-25-2015 06:26 PM


Originally Posted by Carlotta (Post 5225144)
With all due respect, ...When in AA, I would not talk about the new life acceptance program any more than I would talk about the 12 steps at a WFS meeting...
The same way I would not start kicking a soccer ball on a baseball field or read the new testament in a synagogue.

Well....

AA says "Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety." In which case, shouldn't open talk about successes of programs and treatments other than AA be encouraged? But my experience, which I don't devalue, has been quite the opposite.

Boleo 02-25-2015 06:26 PM


When in AA, I would not talk about the new life acceptance program any more than I would talk about the 12 steps at a WFS meeting. The same way I would not start kicking a soccer ball on a baseball field or read the new testament in a synagogue. That's just common sense.
When in Rome - I do as the Romans do.

I have tried several so-called more modern approaches to recovery and found that they all have fly's in the ointment.

Johnston 02-25-2015 06:29 PM

Been around AA for over two decades and I don't think it's a cult. As the OP mentions, the old timers can be a pain though. My experience is that many of them are just lonely people who want attention. Like it or not, years of sobriety matter in the fellowship, so even a loopy old geezer might be taken seriously if he claims many years sobriety.

Carlotta 02-25-2015 07:07 PM


Originally Posted by courage2 (Post 5225164)
Well....

AA says "Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety." In which case, shouldn't open talk about successes of programs and treatments other than AA be encouraged? But my experience, which I don't devalue, has been quite the opposite.

I go to steps oriented meetings not general discussion ones so the chit chat does not come up until after the meeting when we hang out.
I have bought the RR book for a friend of mine who kept saying he did not like AA. It is now collecting dust right alongside his big book :(
I also have no problem suggesting an alternative to AA to an individual (done there quite a few times including on SR) if I feel it would click with them better.
That being said, when I am at an AA meeting, I am here to hear and talk about the AA program which are the steps.
As far as the fundamentalist big book/bible thumping meetings go, I have yet to encounter one but I might go out of my way and check one out one of these days to see what is going on there. Not sure where they are at in my area though. Probably in the countryside.

Shamal 02-25-2015 07:29 PM


Originally Posted by Dee74 (Post 5225138)
we don't allow links to a certain orange site.

/snip/

This is a long standing position, it works well here for the community at large, and it's not open for discussion.

Good to know, Dee. I haven't the first idea about what the 'Orange Papers' are, but I have seen it mentioned on AAAA. I will also report to you any posts I see that refer/link to another popular recovery route, in which the message is highly inflammatory towards AA, and would invoke rule 2. Among other things, the site I refer to states that AA is evangelical social cultism.

Dee74 02-25-2015 07:31 PM

You can just PM me, Shamal. Talking about the thing I asked people not to talk about gets silly.

Dee
Moderator
SR

Shamal 02-25-2015 07:32 PM


Originally Posted by bemyself (Post 5225095)
(yes, angry! Buddha forbid)

Haha, or as my Hindu friend is often saying to me in levity... "oh my gods"

Shamal 02-25-2015 07:34 PM


Originally Posted by Dee74 (Post 5225310)
You can just PM me, Shamal. Talking about the thing I asked people not to talk about gets silly.

Dee
Moderator
SR

I am trying, Dee ! That's why I mentioned no names :) I will PM you when I spot a perpetrator in the future.

JeffreyAK 02-25-2015 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by Shamal (Post 5225304)
I will also report to you any posts I see that refer/link to another popular recovery route, in which the message is highly inflammatory towards AA, and would invoke rule 2....

Are you, like, a narc? :censored: :)

Sisterbobby 02-25-2015 07:42 PM


I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
i think you said it all right here Endlesspatience. People need to belong no matter where you are in the hierarch (pecking order) of life.

Shamal 02-25-2015 07:52 PM


Originally Posted by JeffreyAK (Post 5225321)
Are you, like, a narc? :censored: :)

haha, no. Simply one who believes that all things must be balanced.

Anyway, we have been asked not to continue down that path. Moving right along........

silentrun 02-25-2015 08:21 PM


Originally Posted by Carlotta (Post 5225269)
As far as the fundamentalist big book/bible thumping meetings go, I have yet to encounter one but I might go out of my way and check one out one of these days to see what is going on there. Not sure where they are at in my area though. Probably in the countryside.

Hey!!!! What's with judging us country folk. Not all of us are fundamentalists. JK Carlotta. I can take a little criticism and I promise not to get defensive unless you say something a bit to close to the truth. You know what I will do then.

courage2 02-25-2015 08:45 PM

OMG I see where this is going -- AA is a pseudo-Christian fundamentalist cult peopled by the cannon fodder/dupes of the rural backwaters whose strings are secretly pulled by manipulative urbanites no doubt of a certain semitic persuasion for their own inscrutable but undoubtedly nefarious possibly even satanic purposes.

Why are conspiracy theories so tawdry?

Shamal 02-25-2015 08:49 PM

Its taken 10 pages to see where this topic was headed? :)

silentrun 02-25-2015 08:55 PM


Originally Posted by courage2 (Post 5225427)
OMG I see where this is going -- AA is a pseudo-Christian fundamentalist cult peopled by the cannon fodder/dupes of the rural backwaters whose strings are secretly pulled by manipulative urbanites no doubt of a certain semitic persuasion for their own inscrutable but undoubtedly nefarious possibly even satanic purposes.

Why are conspiracy theories so tawdry?

I was going to go with the Illuminati.

courage2 02-25-2015 09:00 PM

The trifecta is that the Illuminati, the Jews & the Freemasons are all part of the same conspiracy. Backed ultimately by The Greys.

(sigh)

Jeez, has any AA conspiracy theorist ever watched people actually try to conspire? Especially when mind-altering substances are involved? It's laughable.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:42 PM.