meh, I am deeply and seriously skeptical of all statistical studies of alcoholism and it's treatment. I've never been given a questionnaire at an AA meeting, and I am not sure if I would complete it... No one I know has been given a questionnaire...

Just some of the problems with statistical studies...

What is an alcoholic? Yea, there are plenty of different definitions, and that's the problem, no one can really seem to agree...

What constitutes successful treatment? Total abstinence? Reverting back to normal drinking? Drinking less? One slip, or more?

Who do we study? Those who self report? Those referred from the criminal justice system? Those referred from rehab? From employers?

I don't think any treatment has any greater success than another, and no formal treatment may do better than all the others!

AA works for some, AVRT works for some, Consequences work for some, Drugs for others... Counselling... Whatever.

If the treatment works for you, awesome.

Thanks Mark, that's all I was ever alluding to.

I just have a hard time sitting back whenever I read something being said as a fact, with no serious data to support it. And, as Mark states, good luck finding any serious data pertaining to said topic at hand. I guess I shouldn't have worded my original post here in such a smarmy manner, and for that I apologize.

This is the only sort of data I'm aware that the GSO collects.

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/smf-53_en.pdf

Me too, WTF, me too.

If you are looking for scientific data you are not going to get much. As stated above, my 'data' is collected via my experience. And my experience shows that anyone who works an honest and thorough program in AA gets and stays sober. Fortunately for anyone who thinks differently, there are no requirements to agree with my experience.

Statements about recovery rates, which are actually numbers, need some supporting evidence to be believed. Personal experience stands on its own and is valid for itself, but in no way supports this sort of stuff. No one can argue with personal experience, but it is no more than that. It is a single point, not a rate, not a number. It is not 'data'.

There is data about recovery rates, lots of it, all anyone has to do is look for it. It was an eye opener for me to do just that, others might be surprised too.

Interesting. So you got my recovery all figured out for me now, Stu? :)

Hell no! I have mine figured out. No untreated addict can ever recover on abstinence alone. The drink/drug is a symptom of our true problem, and that is what we see in the mirror. Fix that and its all gravy baby.

Absolutely, since this is exactly what AVRT is. It is a precise map for directly quitting drinking and using, which is based on the experience of the self-recovered population.

It certainly fixes the problems caused by drinking.

Speak for yourself. I don't consider drinking and using a symptom, and I can recover from addiction just fine on permanent abstinence alone.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

Ah Grasshopper, I will tell you what was told to me. "I wish upon you a VERY SLOW recovery" Just sayin....

"Wu may be translated as not have or without; Wei may be translated as do, act, serve as, govern or effort. The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action", "without effort", or "without control", and is often included in the paradox wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing". The practice of wu wei and the efficacy of wei wu wei are fundamental tenets in Chinese thought and have been mostly emphasized by the Taoist school. One cannot actively pursue wu wei. It is more a mere observation of one's behavior after they have accepted themselves for who they are and release conscious control over their lives to the infinite Tao."

Wu wei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm used to this by now, so it really won't affect me, but it is certainly a bit strange for people who claim to be 'in recovery' from addiction to actively dissuade others from quitting the use of alcohol and drugs, wouldn't you say?

I figured out long ago that there is something to be said for a brain that runs on its own chemicals, and that abstinence is its own reward. Contrary to what people who are still stuck in the bubble of addiction may think, life is not hollow and meaningless without getting drunk and high. It is rich with opportunity.

Helpful, supportive, and open-minded.

Stu, every time you start talking about universal truths, you're saying you know more about my addiction than I do. I think we each have our hands full understanding our own situation, without getting so sure of ourselves that we start claiming to know how it works for every other addict that ever was.

It's great you found something that works for you.

Full stop, ya know? :)

Amen to that. ;)

I guess I've just seen enough of where this goes....When the OP asks...

I just want advice on how to perceive AA more positively

I think he should be given that opportunity.

And where may I ask did that "Jewel" surface? Just sayin...

Agreed, Sapling. I haven't said a word against AA, but to your point, perhaps I should say something positive about it.

In my limited experience as a non-AA person, I have been impressed by the individual successes I've seen achieved through AA. I've never understood the desire to knock it. I've never understood the desire to knock any approach.

But whatever. If someone scoffs at AA, or dismisses AVRT, or discourages someone from attempting any path out of addiction, well, I guess that says more about that person than it does about anything else.

We should all have one common goal here...To save lives....Anything else is just not worth it. However that goal is reached isn't important.