That in itself speaks volumes for 12 step recovery. It's not often you see someone who has recovered by way of God put down someone elses desired method regardless of what it may be.

I think Pink said it in a way that reconciles it for me... If I have turned my life over to the care of God there is no reason to make amends. It is done at that point. I get that.. Really do...

Mark

Yes I specifically used the world alcohol problem. Another thread I think

QUOTE=tomvlll;2363190]

Not sure they could ever do you much harm though.[/QUOTE]

Yes it does do in my opinion. I have heard one neurotic person share their self destructive thoughts declaring themselves to be self centred, egotistical only to within a matter of days try take their life.

I think 12 steps, big book can be beneficial to certain 'problem drinkers'. I also think that 'parts' of the big book, 12 steps can be beneficial to even more problem drinkers (AA lite! lol)

I am sorry to hear about that person.
IF he would have just kept that sh@t inside inside of doing that dastardly 5th step, he would have been fine.

I could have done the 12 steps and have found of great benefit but still held the same view Jim.
We are all different with different views.
I attend AA and was at one time doing the 12 steps. No doubt you are highly respected member of AA who helps treat people alcoholism. Quite a responsible role. Then surely you don’t mind your views to be questioned?

Well tom they are alright physically now. At least maybe you will understand why I hold in part my views that 12 steps isn't for everybody. Who and who its not beneficial for, well, that's another debate in its self.

If works for you that's great and I have lot to thank people who are active on the 12 steps for being there on my hour of need. I will end now and leave this forum but probably not for good. lol.

Well ok. You see, I was just confused there for a moment. There was some drama going on and I wasn't involved for a change. :cool:

Not at all. I don't hold the steps to be the end all and be all. I am also aware that some alcoholics come to us with other mental & emotional disorders that are exacerbated by alcoholism with the disorders also exacerbating alcoholism. I know those people need more than just doing the steps, and I encourage them to seek the appropriate professional help, especially if I sponsor them. I have seen firsthand alcoholics with these various other disorders get treatment for whatever their disorder is and then take the steps and stay sober and function in society.

I am also aware that the AA is not the only path to sobriety. I know thast are other paths, whether they be spiritual, psychological, or secular that get results. If a person feels AA (and by that I mean the program) isn't for them, by all means seek whatever help is available. Alcoholism doesn't care what method you use to recover, it kills you all the same if you don't recover.

I rarely post on the other forums because most of the time I can't offer anything useful. And in case you hadn't noticed, the name of this forum is "Alcoholism 12-Step Support." Since, by your own admission you don't do the steps, why post? If you want to support others that are seeking to recover by other means, why not post on one of the other forums? Like I said, you might even find yourself being useful. Beyond this I don't believe that this discussion has a place on this forum or this thread. Your ending statement in your reply to tomvIII's post implies to me that you are just a troll, at least on this forum.
Peace,
Jim

:discuss

You reply by saying you don't mind your views to be questioned. Then call me a troll for questioning them!

Why do people have to revert to name calling, very unspiritual IMO. My points are valid and as I am a recovering alcoholic, a member of AA with experience of the 12 steps, I have much right to express my views as any one else on this publicly viewable forum. Maybe also I am thinking of redoing the steps.

Alcoholism is a serious condition it kills people. Like, hopefully you do, I just want to see people get better.

Ashame because I thought the rest of your post was really objective and I agreed with what you were saying.

OK I apologize for calling you a troll. And I wasn't calling you a troll for questioning my views. I was calling you a troll because of your smirky reply to tom's post and because of your past history of coming om this mostly AA, mostly 12-Stepper, and for the large part fairly orthodox forum and inciting **** just for the sake of inciting **** and hi-jacking the thread.

As you know I a pretty orthodox by-the-book AA. That doesn't mean that I don't want alcoholics to recover by other means. And you are quite free to disagree with me in my views about The steps. At best we'll probably have to agree to disagree , but my point is why else do you post here other than incite **** and hi-jack the thread?

Speaking of hi-jacking the thread, I think it best to carry this conversation on via private message if you wish.
Peace,
Jim

You think my posts are inciting s*** just for the sake of inciting s***. I think I am just expressing justified grave concerns over certain aspects of AA. People can read back over my posts and make their own mind up about that. Like you said we will have to agree to disagree.

Like you said any further discussion is best done by PM as we will probably end up going in circles or drag up stuff that's off topic of the OP. Although I don't really have any more to say TBH. I would rather keep my views on public view and like you keep threads subject specific.

I have been avoiding the thread just because of the title, I have never agreed that I belong on my own 8th step list, but the funny thing is one of the first thing I tell my sponsees is "put down the bat", the bat they are using to beat themselves with.

I hear in the rooms that you need to learn to love yourself before you can learn to love others. In my experience this is complete and utter hogwash. I am not saying it may not be true, I am saying it's utter ******** FOR ME, it's absolutely not my experience. I learned to love others, and forgive others, by doing so learned to love and forgive myself.

OK, the interesting thing is I see Freya and Jim coming to the same conclusion but getting there via a different path, let me see if I can explain.

In the 12 x 12 it says unless we speak openly of all our lives, and listen to someone do the same we will feel as if we don't belong, the conclusion Joe and Charley came to is, unless you do a thorough 5th step, and listen to someone else do the same you will never feel as if you belong, you will have that underlying guilt and shame etc. and you will never truly feel "part of" that fellowship of the spirit.

When I took my first sponsee through the steps and he did his fifth step, he was crying and sobbing, pouring his heart out to me, and when he was over the first thing that was apparent was his "story" was only important to him because it was his. That truthfully what was holding him back wasn't his past but how he was hanging on to the past, beating himself up with the past, his fear and loathing of the past, it was part of his everyday life, his past and his burning shame and guilt was part of who he was all day every day.

The moment he finished I was looking at him and something happened, I totally forgave him and had a feeling of unconditional love and forgiveness for him wash over me at that second, the moment I forgave and loved him, I forgave and loved myself. The feeling was overwhelming and profound.

So to me, yes, we need to forgive ourselves but we don't know how, we are emotional misfits in a world we don't understand, what we have is a clear cut set of instructions on how to forgive ourselves, how to make amends to ourselves, and it begins and ends with service to others and anonymity, which is service to others without expecting thanks, results, or recognition, which is not service but self serving ********.

If I want Self esteem I need to do esteemable acts, and not only that, try to do so without being seen or caught, if I want to make amends to myself and live with a pure and clean heart, I work the steps, the WHOLE program is about making amends to myself and learning to live in my own skin in a very real way, and to do so I need to give up being selfish and self centered, so I have a set of instructions in how to do so in the twelve steps.

The only way I have ever seen to reach this conclusion is by having sponsees, by freely giving what was so freely given to me, by taking others through the steps, I can't "get" this by "taking" I have never "gotten" this from sponsors, only sponsees, only as a result of the twelfth step.

So I see every poster on this thread talking about "the elephant", and all talking about what part of the elephant they see, but they are all talking about the same thing, just have different paths to get there. I just need to not be rigid and intolerant and realize there is one more then one path that leads to the elephant, but truthfully, is there any part of the program that isn't about making amends to ourselves? Bill talks about drinking being an unnatural act and how both nature and God alike abhor suicide, then gives us clear cut instructions on how to change that, what else is that but an amends to ourself?

an amends is: compensation for loss or injury, what else are the steps but giving us a new life where we clean up our past and learn to be happy, joyous and free, and learn to help others.

If that's not an amends to ourselves I don't know what is.

kurtrambis said:
"Like you said any further discussion is best done by PM as we will probably end up going in circles or drag up stuff that's off topic of the OP. Although I don't really have any more to say TBH. I would rather keep my views on public view and like you keep threads subject specific."

We do agree on that much.
Peace,
Jim

That's what I was trying to say, but for some reason, wasn't able to...

Thanx Ago.

The title was just the topic of our last home group meeting... I had no idea that feelings were going to run so strong, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it all...

Mark

Personally, my feelings where mixed, lol. But put like that (Ago's definition) then yea, makes sense.

How did the c-word get through the SR censors?!

I think I've spent enough time thinking about myself. For a little while, I'm going to focus on others, then I might come back to me. I do think it's important to treat ourselves as we would treat others.

And as we treat others better, so hopefully we will treat ourselves better.

I saw the C word too. :scoregood

As far as I know 'making amends to your self' is part of the Al Anon program. Even though 'they' wrok the same 12 steps as us, they also have different literature.

I think sometimes if a member attends both fellowships it can be hard to seperate the two.

When I got sober noone told me to make amends to myself but when I become an Al Anon member too @ 5 years sober I was open minded enough to give it a try when I went through their steps with a sponsor.

It is certainly not something I would suggest to a newcomer and I always cringe a bit when I hear it at AA meetings, as the BB book does say, 'hard on ourselves etc...' as someone pointed out earlier. I don't recall reading it in any AA literature either except maybe Grapevine. But when I sponsored people in Al Anon I bring it up.

One of the biggest 'defects' for alcoholics is avoiding responsibilty for our own actions and blaming our behaviour on others or situations. The 8th and 9th steps are about learning how to take resposibilty for ourselves because while we did victimise ourselves or were victimised by others we victimsed others too and somewhere someone has to say the buck stops here, with me.

In a way it sort or reminds me of a talk I have heard by Johnnie H where people at an AA meeting tell him he's a 'miracle' (for getting and staying sober) and when he tells his sponsor, his sponsor tells him he's not the miracle, AA is but he is a small part of it. It's about perspective.

I think as long as you do your entire 9th step to all the people outside of yourself first, you'll be ok. Afterward, you can decide if you want to write yourself a letter or whatever. You may not feel the need to, because you'll be a completely different person with self-esteem.