ok. :)

"Made a fearless and thorough moral inventory of ourselves."

How thorough can one really be if one leaves out the part about the way one treats and conceives of oneself? I mean, seriously, each one of us is not only a "precious child of God," but the one child of God over whom God has given us total stewardship....and the fact that one has totally abdicated responsibility for that stewardship does not "count" when it comes to making amends????

"Made a list of ALL persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them ALL." (emphasis added)

My guess is everyone posting here is a "person." So, what is it about "ALL" that is so hard to understand?

"Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others."

Just off the top of my head, I'd say the "such people" in Step 9 refers to the "ALL persons" in Step 8.

And I do agree 100% that working the Steps ALL-out will naturally result in amends to self being made. But, the fact is -- and maybe this doesn't happen in other places but it happens quite often here in Rochester -- that when a meeting centers on Steps 4,5, 8 or 9 or even when I'm talking one-on-one with program friends and/or sponsees, it is not unusual for shame and negative self-talk and harsh self-judgment to start coming out.

And actually, as it is September and a lot of meetings are working on Step nine, I observed a powerful example of this just last week -- and also an excellent response from an old-timer. A young, fairly new person was talking about having made amends to a parent and how that parent is now trying to take advantage of that by trying to use that to manipulate and/control the person. The person was basically saying that s/he felt like s/he had to put up with it kinda like a punishment or a penance. It was pretty disturbing because when this person was speaking you could pretty much hear the guilt and self-loathing in his/her voice. It was pretty messed up. Well, this old-timer basically jumped in straightened that out pretty quick, pointing out that the past is the past and just because we accept our responsibility for it and do out part to make it right that in no way entitles others to punish us. He said that part of making it right means treating other people right, treating ourselves right, and not allowing others to treat us any less than right.

I don't know, but when I'm working with people in program, it does seem like habits of self-loathing and negative self-talk are very, very insidious and, like the disease of alcoholism itself, will wait their time and pop up again with disastrous results when they sense an opportunity. Right now there's this kid I know, about 20 months sober and going back to school. His program is very strong; his sponsor is great; his relationship to HP is, usually, solid (and the "usually" is important here because it does seem that being in right relationship with self is just as absolutely necessary as being in right relationship with others in order to be in right relationship with HP. After all, if one conceptualizes oneself as a "piece of sh*t," how is one possibly going to be able to believe that HP would even want to be in relationship with one???) .

But, anyway, right now this kid starting great classes in stuff he really loves, is good at and wants to do, and the impulse to self-sabotage, as he always has in the past, is coming on strong and all the thoughts about how he doesn't deserve all of this good stuff in his life -- even though anyone who knows him and all the work he's done the last year and a half knows that that is total BS. So, you know, we're doing the positive self-talk thing. And I call him and say: "So, K, what did you say to yourself when you looked in the mirror this morning?" and he tells me the things we agreed he was going to say to himself. And the first few days, it was like he could barely get them out of his mouth, but after about a week and a half now, he happily practically shouts them. This I think is part of an amend to himself. And people can think it's AA "lite" if that's what they want, but personally, I think it's about working Steps 4, 5, 8 and 9 in a rigorously "ALL" way.

freya

Freya,

It's not a big deal, but one problem I see in including myself in the 'all', is that I can include myself in the 'them or others' who may be harmed. I can justify not making a lot of amends if I'll be harmed in the process.

I don't give it a lot of thought, really. Standing up for myself, boundaries with others, respect for myself, all came naturally as the result of setting things right with others. My self esteem suffered because I'd done wrong things. When I repaired those things as best I could, I didn't have a whole lot of internal guilt and shame going on.

Just my experience.

Mark your question was not selfish at all. It is totally valid to ask. The reality is, if you feel like you belong on your 8th step list put yourself on there. Don't let others dictate(not implying that anyone here is doing that) what you do just because they are passionate about their views. Your in AA, its ok to have an opinion and a view, I only hope you will stay open to change, when we stop being open we stop growing. The Big Book is not the Alpha and Omega of recovery, those who think it is in my opinion have forgotten the open mind. An open mind does not mean buying into every new idea that comes down th epike, you are in for an emotionally draining experience in AA if you do that.

Freya makes an intelligent and valid point here. This is not AA-lite or middle of the road, this is someones view of the steps, in the end we are on the same page, where we differ is small compared to where we are the same. We have a habit ( And these boards have made me painfully aware of this in my own life) of trying to put the program in a small narrow box. It isn't that at all. The realm of the spirit is roomy...

SO put yourself on the list, take yourself off the list, this shouldn't be about beating ourselves up or using our self amends as an excuse for not making things right with you. When I make things right with you I come into harmony with the world. Don't be cattle in AA. We have enough of that, dare I say take what you want????

Well, definitely this is a risk (especially if I think of "harm" only in the sense of immediate short-term discomfort and inconvenience to myself).....but not anymore of a risk than my trying to come up with other kinds of excuses for not making amends to others. I mean, cuz let's face it, I can get pretty creative there if left to my own devices.

So, I think, this is where a "sponsor" comes in -- or at least trusted program people who I know are not going to co-sign b*llsh*t.....because, ideally, when I am working these Steps, I am not doing so on my own and I am not left to my own devices. And pretty much any honest person with a strong program is going to see and point out to me in no uncertain terms that the immediate short-term discomfort/inconvenience of making a difficult or especially awkward amend is a cake-walk compared to the grave long-term risk of harm to myself that's likely to result from not working all the Steps honestly and thoroughly.

freya

...and I just noticed that this is my 1000th post! How cool is that!

My fearless and thorough moral inventory consisted of sheets with resentments, fears and harm done to others on them, no mention of harm done to self and I have done a lot of self harm.

If they meant I should include myself in "persons we had harmed" I reckon they would have said so explicitly.

I think you are playing with semantics to prove your point, Freya.

We can't ask Bill so we each are gonna have to decide for ourselves and saying that "all people" is meant to include ourselves is not something I believe in this case.

It might be a good idea to make amends to ourselves I just don't think it was meant that way.

No where in the Big Book does it say we make amends to ourselves. In fact, it says "...our rule is we must be hard on outrselves and considerate of others".

Those who think there are no sacrifices that need to be made are kidding themselves.

"...simple but not easy. A price has to be paid, it meant the destruction of self-centeredness..."

The big book also says that we will have a life that is beyond all expectations... That we will be happy joyous and free.

The way some put it, it seems that all we have to look forward to is toil and sacrifice...

Whatever happened to "we are not a glum lot"? I like what Freya said above... Working all the 12 steps restores us, squares the account, makes us whole.

Mark

BTW I really appreciated the smart ass comments some of you made... HaHa... Next time one of you starts a thread, I am sure I can think of a way to work some sarcastic asides to get in... And if I get called on it, I'll just shrug my shoulders and say "It was nothing, not aimed at anybody...". You all have a great weekend...

This is an interesting line....and actually I think you're probably right.......but, in my experience, the thing about great and inspired texts -- texts that remain important and relevant and deeply meaningful generation after generation -- is that they have the ability "to speak" beyond the personal and historical limitations of those who wrote them. And, for me, reading/"listening" to them in that way is not about playing with semantics -- it's about having a living, growing relationship with them, pretty much the same way one works at having a living, growing relationship with another human being.

freya

Perhaps it's just different perspectives?

I did put my name on my 4th step inventory but did not even consider making amends to myself (just does not make sense to me).

Early on, I was told that one of the big reasons that I needed to take the steps was to blow up my huge ego (false sense of self). And that huge ego still keeps coming back and I suffer. Much more work to do...

Self-hatred is illusion. When I'm spiritually fit (and reasonably free of ego) it is impossible for "me to hate myself". There is only one of me...not two. I don't know if that makes sense.

Whatever works for others but I think the answer is to work the steps AND keep working them. The whole notion of self-hatred and making amends to ones self kind of disappears. So much of the BB is about getting rid of ego.

On another level, if I am truly one with my Creator it makes even less sense to feel any resentment towards myself.



Awesome thread by the way. Very helpful!

I was being a light-hearted smartass, not trying to attack. As you can see from my later post I think making amends to yourself might be a good idea I just don't think it was ever meant to be taken that way by the writers of the BB. I am not someone who takes every word of the book and applies it literally but I am wary when something becomes mainstream AA that isn't in the book (IMO).
Maybe that is contradictory.


Anyway, I really was being jokey with the page number remark.

It's OK!

I'm not sure what got into me... I regret going off like that. It was a good but stressful day, oh well.

Thanx Stone.

Mark

I've watched this thread from afar. I have nothing positive to add to it and some others have said what I would have. If memory serves me right, keith summed it up in about the 2nd post.

You at one point said something about Jim "spewing" something. It's at that point that I realized you were somewhere far from me. I agree with about 98% of the stuff that Jim says and the 2% of stuff he says hits me between the eyes like a brick and is the stuff my ego rages and defends. That's the stuff I should REALLY listen to.

You are admittedly new on this path, working hard, and doing well. It's nice to see your human-ness and not just my own.

I can relate. I've been there many times too.

Patrick,

Let me clarify the "spewing" statement. Mark replied to the original wording of my post. It had read that I was spewing my views, and admittedly I spew quite a bit, but I didn't like how that came out so I edited the post to what it reads as right now.

So Mark wasn't attacking me, he was just replying to my words.
Jim

Keep in mind that most of the Promises come after working the first 9 steps.

IMO it is harder (toil and sacrifice...) to build a house out of brick than it is to build one out of sticks (easier, softer way).

The benefits of building a house of brick do appear rewarding till after the Big-Bad-Wolf shows up.

p.59 . "Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all."
Does not say "..and DON't INCLUDE YOURSELF! "
I guess one could argue, for the sake of argument, that if you DON"t make amends to yourself, you are not following the BB to the letter. :)

But that would be arguing for the sake of arguing.

I suppose if a sponsee asked asked me if he could put himself on the list, I'd try think of a reason why that would be a bad idea. IF I couldn't think of one, I'd just shrug my shoulders and let it go. I have ceased fighting everything and everyone.

I think its this kind of views shows why 12 steps isn't suitable for everybody with an alcohol problem, infact damaging to some.

Wouldn't quitting drinking and turning your life over to someone who is capable of handling it (God) an amend?
Nutshell "I screwed up my life and I need to make it right" What can I do to right the wrong? I honestly take step 3 and since God is now in charge, there is no "Me" to make an amend to. Nor do I need one.

That's why there are other forums for you to post on Kurt. Forums where people of a like mind post on. Forums that I don't post on because about anything I can add would merely be opinion and therefore not useful to the other posters on those particular forums. I suggest you try posting on those forums where you might actually be useful to somebody else and quit trolling around on this one.

They sure aren't. If you aren't an alcoholic they ain't gonna do you much good.

Admitting you are powerless over alcohol is a hell of alot different than an
' alcohol problem.'

Not sure they could ever do you much harm though.