There's no denying there's some great debaters and brilliant rhetoric in the thread, from both sides.
We should be here to help others tho...
I know as well as anyone that sometimes the glow of discussion can get a bit heady - I hope we keep sight of our focus.
All this 'he said... no...he said' stuff seems pretty circular and self indulgent to me.
Anna asked once and I'll ask again.
Lets remember the OP who started this thread, the question they posed, and the newcomers who read this thread and are looking for help.
thanks
D