Does inherent alcoholism affect character?
 

Given the well documented complexities of human nature, my question is. Does inherent alcoholism, which as I understand it, affects about 10% of those generally referred to as alcoholics. The rest, in recovery, no less important. Affect their character, given that in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' sober alcoholics, with the odd exception, are described as 'friendly, able and intelligent' people ?

Although notably this refers to 'real alcoholics' see - Chapter 3 of the BB, (4th Ed.) titled,'More About Alcoholism' which provides both a description and their behaviour.

Which begs the further questions, if so, to what extent, and how does this affect both their recovery and their lives before and afterwards?

Not least, because there's a suggestion that apart from being 'friendly, able and intelligent' people they often have special talents and abilities that go far beyond that.

Before we get rolling on this, Redmayne, are you asking about the personality markers of those 'inherent alcoholics' in the absence of alcohol? Possibly of those who haven't yet had a drop to drink? Ever?
Your thesis is obviously that such a person exists. Hmmmmmm. Hindsight doesn't count for this obviously, so anecdotal evidence is just that. Can you support this idea, from credible sources, that there are alcoholics who haven't yet had a drop? A longitudinal study, perhaps?

Once we put down the drink, we are not much different than normies. Us drunks even when sober think that we are so darn special.
Mountainman

Howdy. I read your post this morning and was struggling to make sense of it. I'm not sure what you mean by inherent alcoholism. I googled it and nothing.

I might assume that you are referring to hereditary alcoholism perhaps. I don't really understand the crux of your post at all if I am honest, and no offense.

I'm not asking for anything...
 

I'm not asking for anything but constructive comment and criticism from others, presumably in recovery who use this site...

As for a thesis, what thesis ? I've always understood this is an open public forum not a closed academic debating platform..

This is the second time you've misquoted the BB regarding this saying........see the thread 'Quality vs Quantity, your post #39 on 5/15 and my response #43, also from 5/15.

I will repeat myself here; check out the BB and see if I'm not correct. Sober alcoholics, in the BB, are NOT described as 'friendly, able, and intelligent people.'

That phrase is from The Doctor's Opinion, page xxviii, where it is describing different 'types' of still active alcoholics.............: "...Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people..."

(o:
NoelleR

No, it does not.

What is inherent alcoholism?

The difference being?
 

The difference between,'friendly, able and intelligent' and 'able, intelligent, friendly people' other than the word 'and' being?

When I read threads like this,I am grateful that I have never analysed my Alcoholism as I was advised in early recovery.I have always kept it simple.

Are you saying that "inherent alcoholism" is synonymous with "real alcoholic"?

As far as scientific research, there's the genetic aspect and the environmental one. The environment can determine which of your inherited genes are activated and expressed, and to what degree. I think there's a consensus of a 50/50 split, half genetic, half environmental. Or at least, that used to be the general consensus.

Does alcoholism affect character? That's a tough one. I'd think it certainly affects character while a person is actively using. And for a few years after quitting, while the brain is healing, it is probably still affected.

But character is a person's traits exhibited over time, right? And aren't we all, to some degree, fluidly expressing many personality traits? We change over time. Character is generally thought to be somewhat fixed.

I was an introvert before my alcoholic genes were activated. And now at 2+ years sober, I'm still an introvert :)

I think I understand your question, RedMayne. And my answer is "yes." I think alcoholism does affect our character. But more importantly, I believe we can change :) And I believe we can better ourselves, and some of these negative traits recede, while the positive ones are enhanced.

Today, I am able to trust myself, and give my word to others, and have them place their trust in me. I am no longer covering up my behavior in order to drink. I am no longer making tons of excuses and justifications.

Those negative traits common to addicts may or may not be truly "character" traits, but if we live that way long enough, in active addiction, it can sure be experienced as such.

Heavy drinking did change my personality for the worse. I was in my second year before I came around. Now I find myself smack dap in the middle of perimenopause so yeah me. I supplied a link on this section before about a study of alcoholics. 30% of people who abused alcohol are also comorbid with other psychiatric conditions. Also 15-20% of men and 10% of women alcoholics have APS. In the general population only .8% of women have it. Still that leaves the vast majority of us without any disorder except the alcohol abuse.
I think of that when people say "when you stop drinking and the problems go away you are not a real alcoholic." I don't have the mechanism that tells my brain to stop drinking before I poison myself. My mechanism tells me to drink to passing out. To me that is the definition not how screwed up someone is.

I'm not sure this was directed to me, but I will address it. There is no difference between 'friendly, able and intelligent' and 'able, intelligent friendly' people.

The point of my post, if you read it completely, was that you misquoted those terms (in whatever order) as referring to sober alcoholics; which they do NOT; they were used to define a type of active alcoholics.

(o:
NoelleR

'real alcohoic'
 

As the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' is primarily directed at those termed as 'real alcoholics', as first referred to in the opening line of Chapter 3 (4th Ed) which is entirely devoted to alcoholics of their kind. You'll excuse me for saying that's a bit like stating the obvious, isn't it? Given that I myself fall into the category of being, like many others, a 'real alcoholic', which is why I posted the thread in the first place...

That said, I look forward to your constructive comments or criticism, taking it into account, on the whole content of my thread and the questions raised in it....

the·sis
ˈTHēsis
noun
1.
a statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved.
"his central thesis is that psychological life is not part of the material world"
synonyms: theory, contention, argument, line of argument, proposal, proposition, idea, claim, premise, assumption, hypothesis, postulation, supposition

Even if you didn't like my generally accepted use of the word, you didn't answer my question. Why do you think that such a critter as someone with 'inherent alcoholism' exists?

Becaused the 'crittur' ...
 

Because the 'crittur' you refer to is otherwise known as a 'real alcoholic' of which I amongst the other 10% of those generally referred to as alcoholics am one! Thanks for the insult and to whose recovery, the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' is primarily dedicated to. Not least in Chapter 3,'More About Alcoholism' which specifically refers to those like me!

Supported by Charlie Parmley and Joe McQuany in their worldwide and well respected,'Joe and Charlie: Big Book Study Meetings' of which I have copes of original recordings together, following their passing. The book,'Joe & Charlie: The Big Book Comes Alive!' which is a transcript of those meetings, which, although it contains relevant references to the contents of the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous', when read in conjunction with it provides a full comprehensive guide to what the first 100 who got sober and contributed to its content were trying, amongst all the others who make up the book's contents, say.... Including AA's two co-founders, Bill Wilson and 'Dr.Bob'.

Now you may want to argue the 'why's' and 'wherefores' with this 'crittur' but you can't really argue against all those who've preceded me...neither does it show them much respect to refer to them as 'critturs'. Although you can call me what you want, not least as by learning from them I not only got into recovery but at a point where I believed, with good cause, I was dying from my illness. alcoholism. I had a ' spiritual or psychic experience' as referred to in the previously referred to book, lost all desire for alcohol and more importantly, am alive today to confirm all I've said Safe, sane and sober, a far cry from the person I used to be in my drinking days.

OBTW, first rule of advocacy, never ask a question you don't already know the answer to...

Hi all back in the late 1960's some colleges did huge studies on this. and found a ton of good stuff and then put some things in that did not make sense but gave them a better grant for more study.. so this is what I believe to be true.. My Pop Drank my Families before him Drank.. the Grand Mothers tried to stop a bunch for a long time.. but the damage was done.. I drink .. Linda is a closet drinker with pills.. Diane is a mean Drunk and Sandy is a screaming looney on why people drink and then privately drinks.. I have 25% of my counsins gone because of Drinking.. 5% have taken their own life.. 10% have problems with pills.. and 35% that will not admit to problems.. We are who we are because of our Families. yep bottom line Truth ... our Children reflect again who we were and are today.. Ivan Drinks Barry has married into a Jack Daniels Family and will become my Dad... no matter what I try to do.. and my Moose is such a nice Man... my Melanie is a Wine drinker... and sad.. drinker... they are in their 40's... here is a good piece on this reason why we are who we are.. love to all a Drinker a Sad Drinker.. and one that knows she has a problems stands tall and say s Stop Ardy Stop... and I listen...
A Systematic Review of Research on Children of Alcoholics ...
link.springer.com/.../10.1007%2Fs108...
Springer Science+Business Media
by S Park - ‎Cited by 2 - ‎Related articles
May 1, 2015 - A Systematic Review of Research on Children of Alcoholics: Their Inherent Resilience and Vulnerability. Sihyun Park,; Karen G. Schepp

Character, in the classic psych literature, usually refers to the components of our personality that is more flexible and subject to influences by our life experience and environment. The part that is considered more stable for life and inborn is called Temperament.
What is the TCI? ? Center for Well-Being

I am involved in research that studies these things in drug addiction and we use the test (among a few others) that is available through the website I linked for assessment. Unfortunately it's not free online but not too expensive either and I think the result can be enlightening for those interested in understanding our individual traits.

Alcoholism/addiction definitely affects our character, and how our personality traits manifest. Often even for a long time after we quit using our drug of choice -- why recovery is a long term process and not an event.

I'm also unclear about what you exactly mean to discuss, Redmayne, especially by the "inherent alcoholism" others found confusing as well. Do you mean the vulnerability that some people have to addictions even before ever using drugs? The personality traits that sometimes predispose people to developing addictions? If so, yes it definitely exists. This was a recent thread discussing some of this stuff and I posted in it also:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...rd-centre.html

I'm not very much into analyzing the BB and am not familiar with the terminology enough to comment on that, just wanted to say something from the point of view I know much better and actually also work on myself.

No...
 

No...it's really quite simple, you'll find a full explanation of what I'm referring to in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous, specifically in Chapter 3, 'More About Alcoholism' enhanced and supported by the book,'Joe & Charlie: The Big Book Comes Alive'...

I'm not going to keep repeating what a considerable number of people know now and have done since the book and the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, have known since the mid-1930's. It's all there to be read and understood...

Best done by people who stop thinking as if they know all the answers and have one or two questions, that way, you learn...sprinkled with a little bit of humility. Like a well placed apology, it goes a long way...I'll say no more.

It doesn't read very simple pal!!! Like, not at all.

I probably shouldn't laugh but I am, and that can only be a good thing :)

I think you're just looking for an argument man.