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Originally Posted by Redmayne
(Post 5407631)
No...it's really quite simple, you'll find a full explanation of what I'm referring to in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous, specifically in Chapter 3, 'More About Alcoholism' enhanced and supported by the book,'Joe & Charlie: The Big Book Comes Alive'... I'm not going to keep repeating what a considerable number of people know now and have done since the book and the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, have known since the mid-1930's. It's all there to be read and understood... Best done by people who stop thinking as if they know all the answers and have one or two questions, that way, you learn...sprinkled with a little bit of humility. Like a well placed apology, it goes a long way...I'll say no more. I think this is a good idea. You posed a question to discuss with folks, and they have engaged with thoughtful responses (even as they have politely asked you to clarify your terms.) From your responses, you appear to be insulted and angry with the direction this discussion is going. From my perspective, nobody it trying to insult you, but rather give their best thinking about the questions you pose. Perhaps it is time to let this subject for for awhile. |
Are you a member of AA Redmayne? I only ask because I have never met anybody like you in the rooms. I don't think Bill and Bob would have been impressed with your nitpicking. |
Well, then I will look into that if/when I want and next time will say something when I feel I understand your comments and have something specific to say. I only responded because you said you were looking for "constructive comment and criticism from others" that are in recovery and use this site. Maybe I lack humility but I do believe that receiving constructive criticism should involve an open mind to the view points, opinions, questions, and experiences of others, and real dialogue, not attacking them in return. Anyhow, not my business. I hope you find the answers you are seeking and competent partners to discuss them with. |
Alcoholism... Alcoholism is a disease of ignorance. It is NOT an addiction, but a two fold illness comprising of a physical allergy and a mental obsession. Neither is it a vice. Proof of this can be found in AA literature and other associated reading, cvd and dvd's... Addiction to alcohol, is completely different matter, for the simple and obvious reason it is exactly that and exists in the body on that basis. People can be cured of addictions. Alcoholism can never be cured, it, and its self destructive effects, can be mentally and physically, restrained and their progress halted by total abstinence. All this is fact! Now where's the argument in this? Because if there is one, it'll doubtless come from one of those who knows all the answers and none of the questions. Think I'm bothered? Not really... |
Redmayne, that particular point of view is not uncommon among AA proponents, but is not widely held in the larger populace. Even AA members who are medical doctors do not agree with this. It is significant that a survey of doctors attending an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous (IDAA) found that 80% of its members believed that alcoholism is simply bad behavior - - not a disease. If you wish to have your point of view on this stuff accepted without question, you might wish to pose your questions in one of the twelve step forums. |
I've not read the big book or any of the related literature, nor have I attended AA. I get the mental obsession part, but a physical allergy? How is that? *not an argument, I really want to know. |
Originally Posted by Redmayne
(Post 5407631)
No...it's really quite simple, you'll find a full explanation of what I'm referring to in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous, specifically in Chapter 3, Or, are the ones in disagreement also the ones who have not read and (studied) the Big Book ? Mountainmanbob |
Originally Posted by Redmayne
(Post 5407689)
Alcoholism is a disease of ignorance. It is NOT an addiction, but a two fold illness comprising of a physical allergy and a mental obsession. Neither is it a vice. Proof of this can be found in AA literature and other associated reading, cvd and dvd's... Addiction to alcohol, is completely different matter, for the simple and obvious reason it is exactly that and exists in the body on that basis. People can be cured of addictions. Alcoholism can never be cured, it, and its self destructive effects, can be mentally and physically, restrained and their progress halted by total abstinence. All this is fact! Now where's the argument in this? Because if there is one, it'll doubtless come from one of those who knows all the answers and none of the questions. Think I'm bothered? Not really... To me, it seems like you could better balance your advocacy with inquiry. And I offer that only as an observation on this topic. I very much enjoy your posts, and find a lot of value in what you offer. If this thread is a source of consternation for you, maybe let it go. |
our opinions of each other... Our opinions of each other have great merit, they both match each other... |
Hi all ..mm this is a great debate really ... as we are all from so many different backgrounds families and countries this is the best research anyone could do... My Pop before he died said to me in private " its the thirst kiddo I can not control the thirst." It killed him.. 9 months before he fell and got so sick. Pop and Mom had their 50th wedding ann.. as we stood my Pop and I at the side of the huge hall we viewed our families of so many.. the drink poured laughter and smiles.. as the day wained to evening the saddness and tears and fighting started.. Arda promise me that they will not do that when my time comes... I was his wingman on the left. Pop I promise... and he turned an empty glass upside down.. my turn soon he said. be strong for your Mom.. I promise... Really kids and beans I am just an old lady of time.. I don't know what makes us be what we are.. really... Life Family DNA or just Fate... I need a tissue .. and a hug.. for I watch people all the time.. the saddness is to much for some to bear.. and the nasty way people treat each other is the same.. you can sit in a Mall and watch the afternoon turn to night and the behavior of the people around you will show you the animal on the prowl that is looking for the drink the food or the pills.... it seems maybe just to this old lady .... that life as we knew it is gone... and the darkness is getting closer.. everyday... I am sorry.. just my individual take on it all... Just remember one thing please. man writes to aid himself. not others he promotes to gain what he wants most... Man has changed every book we touch for his own good.. not the good of People.. I am sorry .. but turn on the tv and watch the news and say.. where did they get that .. and why are they doing that.. Its a Book that someone had to write and change to fit their own needs.. sorry Prayers from an Old Ladies heart not for my good but in hopes of a tiny bit better day for all of you.. love ardy...
Originally Posted by Redmayne
(Post 5407631)
No...it's really quite simple, you'll find a full explanation of what I'm referring to in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous, specifically in Chapter 3, 'More About Alcoholism' enhanced and supported by the book,'Joe & Charlie: The Big Book Comes Alive'... I'm not going to keep repeating what a considerable number of people know now and have done since the book and the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, have known since the mid-1930's. It's all there to be read and understood... Best done by people who stop thinking as if they know all the answers and have one or two questions, that way, you learn...sprinkled with a little bit of humility. Like a well placed apology, it goes a long way...I'll say no more. |
Carl Rogers also said... Carl Rogers also said,'I cannot teach anyone anything, all can do is create the environment in which they will learn,' which if you go back to my original thread is all I did, the proposed learning, including myself...to be achieved by way of constructive comment or criticism... as is the hoped for case in all forums public or otherwise... I take no issue with your observations, not least because when all is said and done, I'm safe, sane and sober which is all I ever wanted to be... enhanced by Buddhist philosophy, which suggests, 1. That you should rely on yourself. 2. Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned. Which , I presume accords with your suggestion of 'letting go' ? My only query being, what makes you think I hadn't done that already? Recovery in pursuant of the suggested 12 Step program of AA, is a 'selfish program' a fact widely known amongst those who undertake it, as is the fact that recovery is a individual responsibility. Which may be helped by others sharing their experience, strength and hope. On this basis, if I'm 'guilty' of anything other than knowing the difference between alcoholism and addiction to alcohol, you can 'march me to the scaffold' now and all stand round and applause. No offence meant or taken,'bye. |
Redmayne, now kiddo don't take this wrong cause you have some great thoughts here and that is what is so important to all of us and recovery. .the abiltiy to Stand up and be counted and hold tight to our views.. but I have to ask.. have you ever thought of yourself as a British suffragette..from so long ago. you just have so much of one of my Great Aunts in your writing.. really . and she was one great old lady for how things should be done for the better/... if I have upset you I really am truly sorry. but she believed that we never go around with different people every one keeps coming back untill we all get it right.. really... |
I keep an open mind... Believe it or not I keep an open mind, to the point where I penned,'Michael's Law' which says that when you have examined the logical, and all that's left is the illogical, then that to must have its own logic.' A classic example being the difference between an addiction to alcohol, which , by whatever means offers the opportunity at least to be cured,and alcoholism. Which is a two-fold illness or disease consisting of a physical allergy and a mental obsession for which, other than by total abstinence there is no cure. Which means, as Clancy's (you'll no doubt have heard of him!) sponsor said to him,'If your problem is alcoholism, your problem is not alcohol,' said simply because alcohol is must a symptom of alcoholism. Few people understand this...added to which, for someone who suffers from alcoholism and doesn't get into recovery, there are only two outcomes, insanity or death, most end up hoping the latter comes first. It certainly killed some people I knew and nearly killed me! Not forgetting that within the past week it killed a much respected and loved figure here in the UK, Charles Kennedy. So, I make no apology if I take the subject of mine and others alcoholism , although I'll admit, quite understandbly having regard to all the circumstances, I don't suffer fools easily and, in recovery look for credibility in all people and things, no credibility, no me...so you can all breath a sigh of relief now, as I won't trouble you anymore. My personal sobriety takes absolute priority in my life, no sobriety, no me...I've always taken note of that text in AA literature, possibly in 'As Bill Sees It' although I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong, that there are only two sins in recovery. To interfere with anothers recovery and to interfere with your own recovery. I don't intend to do either....which highlights another difference between addicts and those suffering from alcoholism but far be it for me to say anything...I don't have all the answers just one or two questions. 'Bye... |
Originally Posted by Redmayne
(Post 5405393)
Given the well documented complexities of human nature, my question is. Does inherent alcoholism, which as I understand it, affects about 10% of those generally referred to as alcoholics. The rest, in recovery, no less important. Affect their character, given that in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' sober alcoholics, with the odd exception, are described as 'friendly, able and intelligent' people ? Although notably this refers to 'real alcoholics' see - Chapter 3 of the BB, (4th Ed.) titled,'More About Alcoholism' which provides both a description and their behaviour. Which begs the further questions, if so, to what extent, and how does this affect both their recovery and their lives before and afterwards? Not least, because there's a suggestion that apart from being 'friendly, able and intelligent' people they often have special talents and abilities that go far beyond that. |
Originally Posted by SDH73
(Post 5407753)
I've not read the big book or any of the related literature, nor have I attended AA. I get the mental obsession part, but a physical allergy? How is that? *not an argument, I really want to know. |
Caveat Lector Especially newcomers and/or folks who haven't read or studied AA literature, specifically AA's Big Book and 12x12. Remember, there are folks who like to use that tired ole preacher comment "it's in the book" when actually referring to their understanding, and possibly misinterpretation, of what's actually written in the book. If the poster doesn't list his/her source (by page number, or at least chapter), then check it out; research it on your own before swallowing it hook, line, and sinker. Also be aware of lines that include words like "all AA's" or "everyone in AA" or "everyone in recovery." In other words look out for hyperbole. One other thing to watch out for is folks offering their 'opinions' as 'facts' (perhaps even using lines like "it's a fact"). Just because a person believes something to be true doesn't necessarily make it so. It's still just a person's opinion/belief; not a fact. (o: NoelleR |
Thanks to everyone for all their contributions... Thanks to everyone for all their contributions...first rule of advocacy, never ask a question you don't already know the answer to... 'Be like the headland on which the waves continuously crash: it stands firm and gathers the waters to rest.' Marcus Aurelius, 'Meditations. Remembering that,'Man is not disturbed by vents, but his perception of events,' Epictetus... |
Maybe that's the thing right there, Redmayne. We not all of us are here to advocate for a particular agenda. We, or speaking for myself, I am not a headland that is set to weathering the crashing waves either. I was looking forward instead to a discussion and a forthright exchange of considered opinion. I like the Epictetus too. |
Of no value.. Probably best sticking with Stoic philosophy and Epictetus then...I'm obviously of no value on here...either to others or myself.. |
I'm obviously of no value on here...either to others or myself.. Each of us has something to offer - sometimes those offerings open up a lively and challenging discussion. but...if you're done with this discussion, that's ok too :) D |
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