Hmm. Strong Beast Activity Today
 

Have no idea why. Definately coming out of the blue(sort of). I have to hang outdoor christmas decorations, normally I would be having a beer or 10 doing it. I hear it loud and clear and know that the AV is coming out in force. I have a "vertigo" situation going on. I have caught the AV telling me to jump in the car and run out and buy some beer quick before my wife gets back from shopping.

The thing is, I am not trying to argue with the Beast or AV, though I keep saying absolutely not in my head. I have 1 child home sick with the flu. I have a gigantically important meeting on Monday with executives from my company and another organization. To drink now would be a serious disaster. So I know I will not enable the Beast. So strange that it pops up when I have a full plate of activities and important tasks that must be completed without any mistakes.

I keep coming back here and reading the various sections. Can't seem to pull myself away from the computer.

Could use a sanity check here.

Thanks

Hi dybehfar,

Let's take a good look at your AV

As you can see, most of your post is pure AV. This explains why you feel the way you feel. If you want to discuss the how's and why's of me taking apart your AV, we can do that, no problemo. If you think I'm way out in left field, no problem either.

We can work thru this if you're wanting too...

Sorry for your troubles...

The short form list of Addictive Voice characteristics is really pretty short.

• Thoughts of drinking now or in the future
• Doubt in one's ability to stay sober
• Doubt in one's self

The ability to parse one's own thoughts for AV is a learned and essential skill, DoYouBelieve. Have at your post and see what you come up with.

Thank you. I went out and worked on the decorations. All is much better.

I need to think this through a bit and analyze it.

I would love to discuss the how and whys in your taking apart my posting and fleshing out the AV. Please. I would love that. I think I am having some difficulties doing it on my own.

I am happy for all input as I need this straightened out.

Good job making the difference between you and IT.

Similar last night, the seduction was bad and hard to resist. I kept doing things and repeating to myself the benefits that I have sober. AV voice eventually got quiet. Untill my neighbor I used to drink with showed up with a 24. I told him I don't drink anymore and I would prefer doing my things alone.

The look on his face was absolutly priceless. He seemed discouraged behing alone. Saw him this morning, he looked like death. Drank the hole 24. I was fresh and happy.

Okay debeyfar, so let's get started. Your opening post presents you as being distracted, dismayed, discouraged, and distraught by feelings of addiction ambivalence. This is determined by your telling your AV no while your AV tells you yes. Also, you speak about how it would be normal for you to drink beer while hanging the outdoor Christmas lights. You also speak about being in vertigo, and your AV suggests a few quick ones before your wife returns. You rightly have caught alot of this as AV. Have you also fully understood how the ambivalence of your addiction is a feeding ground for your Beast? This explains how you feel that things just go south out-of-the-blue: addiction ambivalence feeding your Beast, and your Beast barking AV on you hoping you'll trip up and succumb.

In all honesty, of course you would feel lousy under such circumstances. Your Beast is pushing you around. You're about a month and better of quit time in up to now, and although that is good, imo, you need to revisit how addiction ambivalence is still pulling you in all directions.

Saying "no" to your Beast is the same as arguing. Saying "yes" to your Beast is the same as agreeing. In fact, saying anything to your Beast will be an argument -- because, unless you're in agreement with your Beast, ie you agree you want to get drunk-- everything else is disagreement which in turn is being argumentative with your Beast.

So, stop talking to your Beast. Hear your Beast bark out it's AV. Recognise the AV. Feel the Beast. Talk to yourself. Yeah, talk to YOU. Not your Beast.

Don't so much ignore your Beast and AV. Acknowledge your Beast and AV. Ask yourself what your Beast and AV mean to YOU. Learn to separate YOU from THEM. Think on what all you're going through means to YOU. Come to an understanding of how YOU feel, and of what YOU'RE thinking.

Make use of being separated from your Beast and AV. You're still in early days with all this, and separation is the single greatest experience in the early days. Over and over again, until you have a kind of constant awareness of separation. When you've achieved a comfortable sustained distance between you and your Beast and AV, then you can begin more complicated experiences to trash your Beast, and quite down your AV.

Until then, its really best to keep working on essential separation exclusively. Don't be concerned about much else until your really comfortable being separated from your Beast and AV.

So that's enough to get a really great workout with early AVRT. Give me more to work with, and I'll give you more in return to keep going forward.

You can be relived from the frustrations, and the fears, and pains, and what-ever-else early on, so don't worry about when does it all get better, lol.

Trust me, when you achieve a proper balance of separation, you won't need anybody to explain much more to you. You'll be feeling awesome and good to go!

It's really all that easy... :)

Not quite there yet, though, so a good deal of work NOW in appreciating how you are becoming separated will always pay you back in spades now and forever more.

So, what do you think of my initial efforts, dybehfar?!

:)

Great stuff. I am digesting the concepts you have laid upon me. :c031:

Addiction ambivalence. That is an interesting phrase. This may come from my inability to grasp the concept of never. I do think I am struggling with this. So this is providing the fertile ground for my AV / Beast. I agree with that. I am trying to live in the now, but can see how that is allowing me to have an addiction ambivalence.

I need to spend some more time rereading this. I will respond more later as we are running out this morning.

Thanks a million to everyone who has posted. It is really helping me understand this.

Neutralize ambivalence (BI-Valence) with Separation.
 

Do You Believe Everything Happens For A Reason,

Your Beast is petrified you reported that to us because it's so obviously wrong. (It surely must have made a big effort to convince you it was true)
Of course you know the concept of never. All of us do, and so do all of our Beasts.

Your quote is equivalent to saying "... my inability to stay stopped."

The first move in AVRT is to acknowledge the ambivalence (BI-Valence) and divide the two ideas into YOU and IT. YOU have quit. IT wants more. With this division, the ambivalence becomes neutralized because IT is a quadriplegic, even though IT will always be there lying on the floor (ground, car seat) next to you, wherever you go, talking to you, reminding you of the old pleasure, the old routines, etc. But that's now all harmless, because IT is not you, and you do can refuse to let IT back in to try and gain control of your arms and legs.

AVRT is all about keeping that desire to drink separate from you.

I've copied the following quote from an earlier post of mine because I think it's concise.

The ambivalence starts with condition D(Addiction). That's when we transition into believing we would be better off quitting for good and that more drinking is simply wrong for us. In condition D(Addiction) more drinking is a moral problem, not just a tactical gamble as it was in condition C(Dependence).

Ambivalence creates the unstable nature of condition D. Ambivalence is also the natural state of someone "in recovery" who has not made a commitment to never drink again. There is an ongoing debate of whether or not to drink some more that is often supported by learned powerlessness and disease beliefs.

GerandTwine

Thank you for this post. Addiction ambivalence appears in this thread and also in Applecakes one today, and it is the place where I come undone too. Any doubting of the decision, even the tiniest hairline crack, and the beast slips through.

So thank you for highlighting it. The issues of the day seem to be Addiction Ambivalence and how to cope with feelings.

The doubting IS the Beast. Quickly listen to what it says (the AV), but do not answer or act upon it any more than possibly saying with deliberate calmness "F*#@ You!" Then back onto what YOU were thinking and doing.

The Beast cannot "slip through" anywhere without YOU very deliberately opening up that crack in full consciousness and watching it come through and then YOU listening to and obeying what IT says.

Some great post above thanks !

do not answer or act upon it any more than possibly saying with deliberate calmness "F*#@ You!" Then back onto what YOU were thinking and doing.

I haven't followed AVRT in my recovery, but I recognise that my habit of slow conscious deep breathing when I hear the AV (cravings) is accomplishing the same thing. I don't think I've ever got to the end of my 5 breaths because my mind wanders off on a different path and AV shuts up.

Thanks guys. I think I am getting it.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I was preparing for executive meetings all day Sunday, and presenting all day today. It went absolutely perfectly! I have never had so many compliments. I truely believe I couldn't have pulled it off while drinking.

No beast activity. I was invited out to dinner where I am sure drinking would be happening. I declined. I did not decline due to any thoughts of drinking, but rather out of exhaustion and I wanted to go home to the family.

This may have opened doors for me. I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. Whether or not it is a higher power, karma, etc is inconsequential to me. I am just so happy to not be drinking.

I did start thinking about "IT" and "I" as separate. It is kind of an outer body experience in that I can visualize "IT" as being separate from me sitting along side as a helpless entity.

Hopefully that is healthy. As long as I don't start talking to it out loud. :c031:

Thank you dybehfar for this thread - and to all the others who have gone in depth to explain. I have never identified more closely with any thought process more than with AVRT. I have reread this thread several times and will again.

Toss

Can you see how this reasoning is AV?

@Gerandtwine Yes, I can see it now. I did not recognize it as such at the time. When I wrote this it was hours after the invitation, once I got home and was reflecting and sharing. Is this still AV?

Wow...this AV is really pervasive in my thoughts and is deeper than I thought.

How long did it take you (and RobbyRobot, FreshStart, and everyone else) to peel back the onion and have the level of understanding that you have with regard to AV?

It makes more and more sense everyday. I think of myself as a reasonably itelligent person, but with out this site and everyone's help, I am not sure I would be able to have fully understood the AV. It seems really simple, but there also seems to be facets that are much more subtle. I was never a very introspective person with regard to my thoughts. I was more of a happy go lucky kind of guy and go with the flow. Maybe that is why I am a bit different and am struggling more with the AV as I really have to evaluate my thoughts on a deeper level.

Whew...Thanks again.

I think you nailed it. Being more with the flow would create less eddies and swirls in your thinking process, less points of interest to focus your awareness. Great analogy, dybehfar.

I would suggest though that you perhaps not talk of AV being a struggle for you. I suggest you would do better to speak of evaluating your own thoughts as being where the struggle is actually occuring, if we are to follow thru with the going with the flow analogy.

Let all struggles with AV be those of your Beast. Don't let your Beast off the hook with those AV struggles. With AVRT, we simply recognise the AV, and we move on with our thinking. We don't struggle with our AV. We can of course struggle with our own thoughts. Life is like that sometimes as we make our way.

Interesting, eh?!!

About when did I reach this level of understanding, I would suggest it's not really about 'when' its more about 'who'

As I recognised more and more AV, as I then progressed with my ongoing separation of my Beast/AV and myself, I naturally accomplished a much deeper and appreciative understanding of me, myself, and I.

I became a person with much more presence. More in the moment kinda guy. And this process just keeps on giving back. After decades of practice, I'm much more the 'who' I'm wanting to be, and much less am I dragging myself around thru the day, you know? As for my Beast, there are light-years of separation between me and that filthy animal, hahaha.

So, it's about the quality of life of the non-drinker new person, and not so much the quantity of the time to peel back that miserable onion.

You're right on track, dybehfar. Play out your learning experiences with your AV. There's always something more to learn, about both your Beast/AV and yourself, and the resultant experiences you'll enjoy from those efforts will always enrich and deepen your entire and total life journey.

Great questions, and great personal insight, dybehfar. Very enjoyable talking with you. :)

:scoregood

hi robby,, just a quickie,, when i said in another thread that i was fine and feeling that ive cracked this,, you were a little contradictory to what youve just posted to dybehfr,,,
i know i am in "early days",, but that does not matter at all does it?
if i feel ive cracked it,, then i have,,, yet you just stated its not about the time but the quality,, which i totally agree and beleive in,,, 100% , so ,, surely if i feel the way i do after such a short time,, that my life is of an enormously great quality,, then im done?
i re read all your posts and i love reading them,, you are such a kind man,, always taking great time out to help,, and guide us,, but also sometimes you do confuse me!!!!
see,, told u i was a dumbass,,,lol
im not having a dig,, just asking for some clarification,,, and this is a very quickly written post,, so when i get back from the shops , i may re read it and realise ive been a goon,,,lol
lv all,,, x cleo xxxxxx:c031:

You can't lie to yourself can you? You know the truth. Denial in treatment circles assumes you are lying to yourself. However, in this instance denial is because it is the truth. If you're done, you're done. 100%.

Are you 100% done?

What takes time is getting ready to quit for ever. Quitting for ever happens in an instant, the very moment you 100% mean it, and you will not change your mind, ever.

Of course your AV might say it very soon, and for ever is a long time. My big plan is only for 50 years which seems to settle the beast a little.

No problemo, Cleopatra. I'm listening to you. I don't, however, agree with your earlier statements that you may have cracked this. I also don't agree that simply because you (or anyone) feels great, that this then equates to meaning the quality of your (or anyones) life is also great.

You know, plenty of times I felt great while using, and my life quality was totally in the toilet, okay? Also, there have been times I felt just so low with myself, and yet at the same time my quality of life was great. Quality of life is not , imo, determined by how I feel about myself.

When we talked about AVRT in your thread, particularly AV, you openly talk about being confused of what is and is not AV. So, we talked about that a bit. Eventually, I made it clear enough, I thought, that I did not agree with the veracity of your conflictive statements. And I cautioned you to re-visit your understanding of what is AV and AVRT. I even asked if you practiced AVRT.

Later on, Fresh and GT posted their thoughts. My ideas on your thread and their ideas are going in totally different directions. You seemed pleased about their direction and unpleased about mine.

I have not contradicted myself in this thread about what I said here or in your thread.

Simply put, and no offense intended, but I believe the experiences being shared by dybehfar are honest and straightforward, where as, your shared experiences present to me as being disingenuous and undeveloped. So this is my opinion on my experience with sharing with you. It's not really a big deal.

I'm sorry Cleopatra, but your thread was directly asking for input from members with some length of experience, and so I decided to share mine.

It turns out we don't agree, you and I, on some essential things, and that's okay. Like I said, I find you to be an interesting person. On the other hand, I'm not just gonna say I agree when I obviously don't. I'm sure you don't want me to just chat you up, lol.

I have no problem with you though, Cleopatra. You'll also notice I don't agree with what Fresh and GT said either, and it's not a problem for me or them, you know?

So, did this help you understand I'm not contradicting myself?

Let me know either way. Thanks for bringing this up, Cleopatra. I hope you can feel better about our disagreements.

Cheers!

My AVRT initially was a 'that's not me / that is AV / that AV has no power any more' situation which took me months into my sobriety. That became a secure place to get active, work out details of how my new life was going to be, and become comfortable in daily life with out alcohol.

A little more pondering made my Big Plan a moral decision. I related to that part of the AVRT book by Mr. Trimpey that explained how this was going to seal the deal for good. I have a friend whose life was irrevocably changed when she lost her husband and 6 week old daughter to a drunk driver in an instant. I made the connection from this tragedy to the idea of drinking again, and conflated the two ideas into something that can turn my stomach if I need it to, by visualizing myself sitting on the curb with flashing lights around me, and carnage all over the place. I made this connection around 9 months sober.

My AVRT now has become a mindful thing, as Robby suggested, and my life has become more present. The awareness of myself in the moment which comes from AVRT has spilled over into other aspects of my life too. This mindfulness does double duty in that my emotions have become things that I can merely observe if I choose, just like my AV. Anger, frustration, embarrassment, anxiety, worry, all the things that I drank to relieve, are now just things that come and go. Just like an urge to drink, they have no power over me simply because I can become the person who watches myself have these emotions. Mindful.

Tabasco and I have done that exercise of visualizing a situation where we are watching a screen that shows us as we are in the present moment. I imagined a little cctv monitor, but Tabasco did it up right with a big screen, a comfy chair and popcorn. This is separating, becoming mindful, being present in a personal, visual way.

I still have rough times in my life, but they just don't drag me down into that black pit where I drowned in vodka. I don't want to appear presumptuous, so just let me say that this has been my experience. I hope you find it helpful. Remember, you can do this if you only decide that you can, that is all you need to do.

hi,,, thanks for yr reply,,, i am rather put out by you saying that my experiences are dishonest and undeveloped,, in what way may i ask??
i know my posts are not at all dishonest ,, and to be honest , lol,, i find that rather offensive that you could compare me with anyone else and call me that,, its your opinion of course,, that i get,,, but maybe just because i havent been telling experiences of a struggle ,, i really have none, that you cannot grasp?
also , not once have i ever mentioned that i do not seem pleased with your posts, or replys,, i do know fresh more than i do you,, altouhg i do follow your posts and im sorry you feel that way.
as i said in my earlier post,, i opened up and shared an extremely tough subject,, about my father and previous addiction probs,, yet you have not answered any of those questions,, not that you need to,, gee,, this is mad,, but i feel a degree of unfairness,, as i am an honest person, i dont need to explain myself to anyone,, but i feel that you dont understand where im coming from .
maybe just a clash of personalities,,, im not one to hold grudges,,, unless you break my heart lol
so,, peace ,love and hugs ,,,phew,,, this place is enough to send someone crazy sometimes ,,lol
lv cleo xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:c031:

Let me add that I don't get twisted up into a tangle anymore about what is and is not AV inside my noggin. There are certainly obvious thoughts about drinking that occur to me from time to time, and I would be disingenuous if I did not admit it. My Big Plan and mindfulness make these thoughts pop right out of the background into sharp focus, so I don't have to get fussed over them.

I think that some of these thoughts don't even register anymore into solid awareness, because just a flick of recognition is enough to diminish them to the point of inconsequence. So, I guess if this is true, I may be exposed to more AV than I am aware of, but who cares, really. If that beast has found some traction that needs full conscious attention, then I have big guns, really BIG guns, ready and waiting for it.

If you are not at this point in your AVRT / mindfulness / meditation / vajrayana / dzogchen practice, Cleo, I would not be able to tell from those few words you have shared. If you aren't, I hope you make that short evolution to that place of comfort and indifference to your AV. If you have arrived, ain't it just great? Best to you.

fresh i am,,, the confusement i started with was merely putting it out there,,if that makes me dishonest then fine,,, but i regert it now,, maybe i should have just stated,, im great,, my beast is always gonna be there , but im ok with that, it can do whatever it wants as far as im concerned!!!
im living an extremely good quality of life and why cant i share that?
im not gonna bother posting here anymore,,, i can get what all has been said,, but i do find it all rather,, hurtful that i am being called dishonest , if i have not gone into much detail of my addictions then i apologise,,, i didnt think i had too, as im a non drinker now,, and thats all in the past,
maybe im a dumbass,, but i know im not
cleoxxxxxxxxxxxx

Okay, I'm still listening, Cleopatra. Let's sort this out some more.

Being disingenuous is not readily really fully translated into being dishonest, okay? When I say you're being disingenuous, I'm saying your not really coming across with all you got, okay? I'm saying, again no offense, I'm saying you're holding back by pretending you don't understand, when in fact you most likely understand much more then your presenting, okay? That is how I experience you, okay?

Still though, you honestly feel like I have offended you, Cleopatra, and of course, I don't want you to feel such awful feelings. I can sincerely apologise for any misunderstanding that may have been caused by me. I know I can get kinda complicated and whatever, and sometimes I can mistakenly just assume people know of this or that other thing while I chat with them, and this can lead to my creating some confusion.

If this has happened, you have my full apologies. :)

Please though, I still don't agree with your take on your experiences. I'm not saying your being dishonest though, and I'm not comparing you to anybody -- you brought up that i'm contradicting myself in this thread, I simply compared my own experiences with the two differing threads authors, being you and dybehfar.

As for your experiences with your father, you have my sincere support, and as much as I can relate, my empathies. I see, now looking back at the thread, you did ask for opinions. I had already felt before that post, that you and I were already in disagreement. I kinda felt we left huge smilely faces with each other, and we were done for awhile. I didn't think you were still asking for my personal opinion at that point, since you were, I felt, simply replying to GT.

So, how are you feeling about all this now, Cleopatra?

Are we good?

:c031:

I'm on my second really serious attempt to quit drinking although I had been drinking many years.

Prior to my first attempt I read the RR book, participated on the AVRT threads here, tried to practice mindfulness, etc., and just spent hours and hours thinking about me and my drinking, trying to get a whole understanding of the whole picture. I spent hours and hours reading the various forums on SR (still do).

One day back in June I was out walking on a trail, very, very hungover with my marriage falling apart, and I slipped, fell, and fractured my femur (thigh). I decided that was like God punishing me for all the pain I've caused and declared then and there that I was done, just done with drinking. I knew AVRT and all the tools needed to quit. I was 100% never going to drink again. My belief that I was never going to drink again was so strong (as it needed to be) and I felt so good about it and so proud of myself. I, too, wondered if I was being over-confident and whether quitting drinking could really be just that easy, like turning a switch off.

I continued that way for about two months as I recovered from surgery. One day my 25 year-old son invited me to a really nice restaurant for dinner. I'd always enjoyed being able to have a few drinks with him now that he was old enough to drink. Well, we went to dinner and he ordered a cocktail and I ordered an Arnold Palmer. I could see how disappointed he was (or his Beast?) when I explained that I was not going to drink during this special time together. After dinner he wanted to go to the restaurant's bar and have a couple of drinks. When I explained that sure we can go to the bar but I wasn't going to have a drink, once again I saw his disappointment. He really wanted me to have a good time and in the past, drinking at a nice bar would certainly have a been good time for me.

So...in spite of all my planning, knowledge gained here and elsewhere, and 100% confidence when I first walked through the restaurant's doors, I caved. My AV told me why not just a couple in order to make your son happy, then you can get back with your plan? It was supposed to be a special night just for the two of us.

Well, that night started another run at drinking that didn't end until the night before Thanksgiving when I ran out of my own wine, drank most of a bottle of my husband's expensive wine, and he lit into me about how rude I was to do that (among other things).

I know people say here you quit when you decide to quit, and I believe that. Still, my personal experience is that I was not prepared to disappoint my son in order to remain sober. I was prepared for other things and situations, but not that one. At that moment I could not separate myself from my AV. I learned from that experience, though. The next time that happens, I will be prepared.

Now here I am back at SR with a new quit and a very humble attitude. Yes, I'm confident I'll never drink again, but I have no doubt of the sneakiness of my AV, either. I don't think it would be in my best interest just to declare myself "cured" and move on. There is much more I need to understand so I spend even more time reading here, learning, and preparing myself for the next time. Because I'm convinced there will be a next time, for me, there certainly will be a next time. And, I would venture to say that most people new to recovery are worried about how they will react when their "next time" comes, even those practicing AVRT.

Cleo, I don't know if what I've written helps you in your journey, but it has surely helped me. I can set the bar at 100% but even so, I need to be ever vigilant in this, to me, very, very serious business of quitting. It turns out that even though it's easy to quit, more often than not it's also not so easy. Hopefully, in time I can let loose a bit.

I courage you to stay here and continue to learn from everyone here who has so much to give. And I wish you much luck going forward.

I understand what both Robby and Cleo are saying. I have to admit at this moment, I know I will never drink again. But Oakwood, your story is very pertient, because even with that 100% confidence I have, I know the separation from the beast is never far enough apart (even if light years as Robby said).

And the living in the moment part that was mentioned, that is where I struggle. That will be a phase of my life that will take a long time to master. Hopefully the AVRT method will help in that regards as well.

Thanks all for the thoughtful discussion!

Toss

Cleo,please don't quit posting. I like reading your posts. For me, recovery has been an evolving situation. I've grown in sobriety and my concepts have changed a bit, here and there, as my emotions and psyche grow and mature.

I hope this makes sense.

Love from Lenina

Cleo,

I hope you stick around. Everyone is trying to help each other here and you help me with your posts. We have roughly the same quit day and I enjoy hearing from you.

You have much more experience in looking inside your self than I do. So perhaps you are able to identify and separate your AV. I am just a bit slower in being able to do that effectively, but I am getting much better.

We are all in the same boat. Metaphorically speaking.