I like to use both methods as I believe they cross over, there is lots of practical thinking in aa, not just higher power. Personally, for me it has to be a total change of lifestyle and people I mix with. If I go out with old drinking mates I will surely drink,if I hang around with peeps that don't drink I will not drink. Sometimes this means having to stay in on my own which can be a bit hard, but not as hard as the alternative.

This thread is not the best place to discuss the merits of the 12-Steps. The first step effectively requires one to declare that they are powerless over the desire for alcohol (ie, the Beast). It should go without saying that the AVRT paradigm cannot and does not assume that at all.

I kind of agree with Lillyknitting. AVRT does a great job in dealing with the mental aspects of not drinking, but not so much the practical. The AA steps (whether religious or secular) would never work for me, but I do need to create an atmosphere for myself to keep me from drinking. For example, if I had booked a trip to Cabo before I stopped drinking 10 days ago, but have now decided to go since I have emphatically stated to never drink again, it would put me in a place that I associate with non-stop drinking. I would be at war with the the beast the entire time, instead of staying home and just fighting minor battles with the beast periodically.

Now I am not saying that I could never go to Cabo and not drink, but since I am only 10 days into this, I am trying to change my environment to make it condusive with non-drinking.

I'm not going to advise you on vacations, but the key to AVRT is the separation of your true self from the Beast. If you have made a decision to never drink again and never change your mind, then you no longer drink. Furthermore, since the desire for alcohol is not you, but the Beast, you don't even want to drink. In the example you gave, your Beast would be put in a place that IT associates with non-stop drinking. It might take a bit of practice to grasp this separation and put it into practice, which is what the exercises in the book are for, but once you do, there are no more battles.

Thanks TU for your response. It makes sense. I need to get to the point where I do not "want" to drink. I have already reached this stage with eating meat, so why can't I do it with alcohol? I quit eating meat last year after I could not longer justify the treatment of animals on factory farms. The repulsion and anger built up over time and I can honestly say that I will never eat meat again. I can even go to any fast food or fancy restaurant and have no desire to order a meat dish and this is after eating meat at almost every meal for 44 years.

I need to apply the same way of thinking to drinking now which should be easier since I have only been drinking regularly for 30 years. Are the exercises you mentioned only in "The New Cure...?" If so, I need to buy that book.

Yes, and I definitely recommend reading the book, since it is fairly comprehensive. You can get a used copy of it on Amazon or Half.com for about $5.

I'm not sure I understand why there is a need to eliminate the "I want to drink" thing.

I am a non-drinker. I am a non-opiate-user. Does that mean I don't "want" to drink or use drugs? Hell no.

I want to go kill my boss, too. But I don't.

I want to do a LOT of things I choose not to do. I'd like that cool ring in the jewelry store, but I'm sure not going to lift it. I want to eat about 10,000 calories a day, because I LOVE TO EAT. But I'm not gonna do it.

You could go on and on. Actually, I really really really "want" to take opiates again, because I felt pretty fantastic for part of the time I was taking them. Drinking I don't think much about until I see others having a great time wine-tasting, or trying out new cocktail recipes, etc. Looks fun. Yeah, I'd like to do that.

But I don't.

Why? NOT because I don't "want" to. I don't second guess the WHY I don't drink or use drugs. I am a simply a non-drinker and a non-opiate-user. That takes all the questions and self-doubt out of the equation.

Just shut down the chatter and make a decision about WHO you are. Yes, I am talking identity here. "Practicing" non-drinkers and non-substance-abusers may need to take a more "active" stance about that identity than those who never WERE those things in the past. I know I did. You just "practice" until you don't even think about it anymore.

At some point, you should be able to go anywhere and do anything you would have done while drinking. Defining yourself as a non-drinker and living your life that way is LESS not MORE complicated. No decisions. No hassle. No worry. You just do it.

FT

There is no way to eliminate the desire to drink, but the idea is to consider it ego-alien, not you, thereby neutralizing it. I previously mentioned this line of thinking here:

Addictive desire is not me

FT--I get what you are saying about identifying as a non-drinker. I just have to adjust the sterotype I have of non-drinkers since I am one now.

What amazed me when I quit drinking was how many of us there are.

I never even noticed them before, just like no one notices I am not drinking either. It's not a pronouncement, it takes no explanation, except maybe to people are used to seeing you drinking. Even then, it's just you now. You're still you.

Ft

NewWay,

I think I was in a similar position to you. I thought that maybe the Beast wanted to drink but me, "my conscience", did too. I think on here I started to get told I wasn't ready to quit drinking or it wasn't common for people my age to keep drinking for a few more years. When people started rationalizing drinking for me I got really upset and realized I REALLY did want to quit drinking and that made it easier for me to attribute all desire to drink back to my Beast. I was thinking that "I" really did want to keep drinking but it was of course my AV telling me that. There are truly no benefits to alcohol (for addicts or those abstinent due to previous addiction), except those that are told to us by our AV.

Another book that might help is Allen Carr's book that TU has listed on his profile page. It's not AVRT based but it helps you view alcohol in a different way which is highly beneficial. And yes, definitely get the RR: The New Cure book and read it twice even...

Thanks Drivenheart. Yes, I agree with you. There are no benefits to alcohol.

I will get Carr's book as well. I really need this to sink in.

Agreed.

Additionally, the whole of the Secular Connections forum, according to the rules of SoberRecovery.com...

...is not a place to discuss 12 Step Programs.

What about 23 step programs? Oh, I'm kidding, I'm kidding! :09:

I think you can eliminate the want. If you understand and accept that alcohol is poison why would you ever desire to drink it. That is the freedom I'm looking for.

You may not want it, but your Beast certainly will, even if it is poison. The Beast is a misdirected survival drive, and it cannot understand that you may eventually die from drinking. All it knows is that drinking feels good, that not drinking feels bad, and that whatever feels really good is essential for survival.

AVRT will not remove the desire for alcohol, and even identifies such wishful thinking as the Addictive Voice itself. Remember the definition of the Addictive Voice: any thinking that supports, or even suggests, your future use of alcohol or drugs, ever. Wanting the desire for alcohol to be removed in order to be free from addiction fits the definition of the AV, for it implies that if desire exists, you are not free, and therefore may get drunk again. With AVRT, you are free if you want to be free, in spite of desire.

Trying to extinguish instinct
 

By setting up the hypothesis that you CAN eliminate the "want to drink" from the equation, you continue to present your "argument" for debate with your AV/Beast.

It is only a matter of time before you lose, because The Beast IS the "want to drink".

The desire for pleasure is a survival drive, and The Beast is a misdirected one, as TU so aptly put it. Certain factions of the population have tried to apply this to celibacy since the beginning of time, and just look how successful those attempts have been. You can't take an instinctual survival drive and extinguish it. The consequences come out one way or another eventually.

FT

If you are not conscious of all the different parts of yourself, the part of yourself that is the strongest will win out over the other parts. Its intention will be the one that the personality uses to create its reality. Gary zukav, Seat of the Soul.

Hmmmm...So, you would deny the possibility of a state in which one simply has no AV?

As my opinion of alcohol changes so does the frequency and amplitude of AV activity change - specifically, it has become weaker and less prevalent in my life. With the tools I have at my disposal my AV is ill equipped to take me on these days. Is there no theoretical point at which the AV would disappear completely?

That being said I did detect some AV activity yesterday when I cam upon a bottle of scotch in my cupboard that I didn't realize was there. It was just a moment...a remembering that scotch was one of the drinks that I used to pretend to like. So, clearly I'm not there yet. I am much closer than I was 6 months ago though and I'm delighted with my progress!

:a122:

If the Addictive Voice is silent, so be it, but if you think that the absence of AV is good, or that the presence of AV is bad, you are missing the point of AVRT. I would also add that you are failing to recognize the AV implicit in such sentiments. The "R" in AVRT stands for recognition, not refutation, not running away from, and not removal.