Hi Thrifty,

You really can't separate yourself from your Beast, since the Beast is actually a part of you. Once you recognize that it is a NORMAL part of you, you can start being accepting of it and it's "agent", the Addictive Voice.

It is not unusual or abnormal for your AV/Beast to be shouting multiple reasons at you why now is not a good time to stop drinking. The Beast needs its representative, the AV, to make it's desires known, and the AV can be VERY articulate.

Let it talk. So what. Let "them" (the Beast and the AV) hold their meeting over in the corner, and go about your business.

Making the decision to be a non-drinker is truly an identity shift. It is not a "thesis" presented for examination and argument for the benefit of "convincing" your Beast of the reality of the situation. As a non-drinker, you are what you are. Period. End of story. No arguments. No questions. That won't stop your Beast and AV from holding their meetings, but after awhile their noise won't bother you so much and may even seem to disappear at times.

More analogies, yes. Taking a firm identity stance works for me, and I think it works for a lot of us.

Don't be angry at yourself. It's not even "YOU" who is angry, it is your AV/Beast who is angry. It is another ploy to convince you that YOU are angry. You are not. "They" are.

Once you withdraw your non-drinking status as a "thesis" statement, things should quiet down.

FT

I'm quite sure my Beast could pen a book called Procrastination for Dummies. It took me at least a couple of months to make a Big Plan that had 100% confidence behind it.

It was always, "Yes we'll make a Big Plan…but not right now. It would be better to wait until after John and Jane's wedding, or Joe's party."

This is classic Beast activity. If you want to be forever abstinent, there cannot possibly be a better time than now to quit.

I like that, kanamit -- "WE" will make a Big Plan. That is too funny, and too true.

The Beast/AV will even appear to be complicit in forming the Big Plan. This may successfully prevent the plan from being implemented, at least in the way you intend it to be implemented.

The Big Plan has no contingency clause. Despite what the AV/Beast wants to append it with.

FT

With all this talk of a beast and how you should never let it out to play doesnt this set you up for misery and depression if you never have ANY fun? Sounds alot like the ascetic priests/mendicants.

To me it seems pretty simple- accept that your body has primal urges and since it isnt able to reason and you are dont let it follow stupid urges that get you into trouble but instead let it have its 'feasting' on healthy pastimes.

A dog might be naughty if you let it and especially if you don't let it out for walks and to play. So it doesnt act up its important to give it attention on YOUR terms. I think this explanation is better than the me vs it dichotomy.

I doubt trimpey talks about it much from what I gather so far but that is how I'd put it. You have to have SOME fun in life and not deny any part of your being. I think its more about integrating even your beast and letting it have its fun with more healthy pursuits.

Trimpey has given me a nice new paradigm to work with but I feel it can be refined somewhat.

Harambulus,

I think the "Addictive Voice" / The Beast concept simply narrows down a concept that can be dangerously abstract otherwise.

It simply anthropomorphizes all the urges and pulls to drink and the rationalizing that goes with it into something more tangible.

To me, the Beast has many faces. The face of alcohol consumption is just one of them. You might want to envision it as a sort of Medusa, although I don't prefer to view it so negatively. I think the Beast is just dumb and benign unless part of it are allowed to take control over urges that are best left to rational consideration.

So, no, this concept need not "set you up for misery and depression".

The idea is not to consider the Addictive Voice / Beast so much as a negative entity but just a natural part of you that you need not allow to annoy you unnecessarily. YOU are the one driving the vehicle.

FT

Is addiction Science catching up with AVRT?
 

The structural model of RR, now twenty years old, posits that the reason people become addicted is because drugs cause deep pleasure, which the midbrain interprets as necessary for survival. Is addiction Science finally catching up with AVRT?

Huffington Post: Why Alcohol is So Addictive

For you, too! I agree, it's more complicated, not quite the same. We do have to eat and I think we should enjoy it. My diet changes were gradual, looking for recipes I liked, etc. I'm not perfect with it but that doesn't bother me. I guess it would be different if I had an eating disorder/food addiction problem or health condition--in that case, I'd be stricter in social situations or holidays.

I think it's fine to have pleasurable activities, lots of fun things to do--it's always a matter of balance, sanity, safety and not hurting oneself or others.

I have to laugh at the dog analogy. Re Cesar of Dog Whisperer with his "schhh!" at bad beasty behavior. That would work. :wink3:

Hmm thats twice ppl form america have referenced this dog whisperer to me recently :D.

Doubt I'd know it even if I did live there as I dont watch TV :D.

TV is most certainly beast activity I tell you! :)

For the moment, I would recommend sticking to the basics and limiting things to your current drug and alcohol problem. In other words, let the Beast simply be the desire for alcohol and drugs. If, once you get a handle on that, you feel that you can apply AVRT to some other vice, such as gambling, you could certainly do that.

I agree since I haven't had much exposure to AA (I attended two meetings... once when I was around 21 and once when I was in my late 20s) so I don't need the deprogramming.

But for someone who has been through AA, I can see it's value.

Maybe he should have added notes to his books, "If you never have been exposed to AA, feel free to jump ahead to page X". :)

I've spent the last few days reading the whole thread and it's been very enlightening. I'd like to thank TU for starting it and him and others for all the discussion and explanations.

RR/AVRT seems such a simple yet effective solution to addiction problems and I'm so glad I found it.

I've done the crash course on the RR site and have ordered the book.

(TU, could you send me the links you mentioned. I couldn't PM you as I've just joined.)

http://www.mazeguy.net/happy/wave.gif Welcome to SoberRecovery harry101

Ive been thinking today I might take drugs again in the future but not in the same way I used to.

I have been thinking the main way I used to use them was as an escape for the daily pervasive depression I have which I think is the main reaosn for my problems rather than the drugs themselves- cos 4 times a year isnt exactly a big 'problem'. I would always regret it after b ut I think thats more due to them making me more depressed thus exasperating the depression I already had. I feel I didnt even enjoy the drugs properly when high so my depression even spoilt that.

As such I have made a pact not to take them again while Im depressed but as a celebration if I feel like it someday in the future.

In the meantime I am gonna work on beating my depression sober.

Beast talk? :D

----

Im gonna read thru this thread from the start soon.

Harambulus,

I think you are a little mixed up.

TV is not "Beast activity". The "Beast" lies within the person and not externally.

I don't understand with whom you have made your "pact". The "Big Plan" is not a pact. A pact is made between two or more persons, and as such has nothing to do with AVRT.

Maybe if you posed your questions surrounding the AVRT concepts?

Planning celebrations that include drugs and alcohol sounds odd for someone interested in being a non-drinker.

I think my main issue is i cant remember what its like to have fun without drugs.

Not saying I dont believe it can be done just i cant remember so the immediate thought of a life without drugs seems bleak.

I was thinking about other things id quite in the past and ive quit both smoking and alcohol.

alcohol wasnt hard for me because i wasnt really fond of the effect anyhow.

Smoking was harder altho i used to enjoy smoking and drinking together and smoking after meals.

Both of them were easy to stop at one point tho since I got allergies (which were ironically triggered after taking drugs one night) so after that it was easy to stop as they made my allergies worse- smoking especially.

I guess on that reasoning we can surmise I value my health more than taking drugs which i suppose it a step in the right direction.

Is this whats called 'whiteknuckling' it?

Harambulus,

To me, "whiteknuckling" it is a description of allowing your Addictive Voice to engage you in a struggle. When you allow yourself to be so engaged, you are empowering the AV to affect your behavior. Continuing such a struggle only tires you, and your AV has time.

Instead of struggling, just let go. Don't argue any more. Let the AV/Beast have their conversations without you. It really is only "noise" and need not be paid attention to. After awhile, the noise is not so loud any more, and may even seem to disappear for periods of time.

As I've said before, your Big Plan is not a "thesis" for presentation to the AV/Beast for examination and argument. It is a statement of self-identity as a non-drinker or non-substance-user. It is who you are.

These are my thoughts and definitions. I'm sure the book explains it much better than I do. Get the book and read it. Terminally Unique will give you, or has given you the titles and references.

Personally, I think "whiteknuckling" it is a ridiculous concept and one I would never engage in. It implies a struggle that cannot be sustained, and really is just your Addictive Voice giving you a pass to go back to being a drinker/drug user. You'll hear this term a lot with people who have relapsed and continue to struggle. It is not an AVRT concept at all.

Dont know if anyone else has said it but this stuff goes really well with buddhist detachment concepts.

As such Id told myself I would begin meditating in earnest again but have been too lazy to so far.

I have the book, just ive only just begun reading the actual meat of RR (book 2) having plodded thru the AA section with disinterest.

Harambulus,

The Beast is quite comfortable with passivity and procrastination, since that ultimately leaves things as they are, with the Beast in charge. That is how it gets you — when you do nothing and expect things to just happen all on their own. Part II of the book is only 150 pages, and you can easily read it in a day or two. Why not get started?

I was just wondering if RR is available in other languages, such as Spanish?