Honesty
 

Its come up a few times lately so please don't think I'm singling anyone out.

Honesty's important. Its fundamental.
I couldn't get sober until I was honest with myself and stopped lying to everyone else.

but - 'I'm drinking but hey at least I'm being honest right?' ....is that a really 'honest honesty' or is it honesty as fuel for further addiction?

Honesty to me is like - I know drinking is destroying me, I know I made a bad call to start drinking...I hate myself so much and I'm in so deep that I don't think I can stop today...please help guys - I'm going to stick around here until you guys help convince me to dump the rest and go to bed sober.

That's the kind of honesty I like, and I think it's the kind of honesty most people need to battle addiction

Its been on my mind - I hope no one feels attacked by my thoughts or feels I've forgotten what its like.
I'm not putting down anyone who posts here 'under the influence' looking for help.

I just...I can remember justifying further drinking or further getting high - and sometimes my rationalisations sounded pretty damn good - but I also remember I knew that getting drunk or high was the wrong thing to do for me, and I hated myself for it.

I don't want anyone here to suffer like that.

D

Thanks Dee, I totally get where you are coming from and I lied to myself ( and those around me ) for many, many years. But yes, when it comes to addiction being honest about it with yourself is the most critical - and hardest - part I think.

Yep.
I used to be like that, so I recognize it right away and I try to err on the side of steering other alcoholics away from the bottle.

I read somewhere that if you don't lie, you don't have to remember what you made up.

When I was honest enough to admit that I had no clue how to get sober, couldn't fathom how to get through a single day without booze much less a month or a lifetime, I reached out and was ready to do whatever they suggested. Until I got honest enough to admit that I was incapable of doing this on my own, my life never seemed to change. I believed that the people who were sober were fundamentally different than I was, and I suppose that was true. They had gotten truly honest that their addiction was no mere choice, not something that a feel-good book, exercise regimen or some other superficial change was going to overcome. AA calls it "the jumping off place" - like jumping off a cliff on a pitch black night with no idea if the ground is one or a thousand feet below. Honesty, open mindedness, and willingness are essential. Not one, not each occasionally, but all three at the same time each and every day in early sobriety - that's what it took to get and stay sober.

I've lost three people who were at one time my sponsees in the decade I've been sober. The only way that I am different than them is that I reached out and continue to reach out. I don't have the answers, and I know that my addiction is as strong as the day I dumped that last drink.

Thanks for the reminder Dee.

There is a certain peace in honesty. Something noble. Without ego.

I really like it.

I'm not very practiced. Enthusiastic tho.

What's wrong with the truth?

Nothing. However could there be?

It's the truth.

I love you least. :)

Oh, what a tangled web.

I couldn't get sober until I got totally honest with myself. The truths that came out when I did may have been painful, but the pain slowly went away and what remained was freedom.

I don't know Dee. I think "I'm drinking but hey at least I'm being honest right?" is the very place some here are at. I'd rather them stay whatever the case may be. And if they are drinking and tell us they are drinking, that is being honest, isn't it? People on here run the spectrum from drunk as a skunk as I type this all the way to 30 years sober. Perhaps I am missing the mark, which I so often do.

I understand not everyone will like this thread but I'm not trying to run anyone off.
Some times things pester me mentally and I need to get them out.

if they use that honesty to essentially keep drinking, is it still honesty...or at least a laudable, noble honesty?

Opinions will differ but that's why I started the thread, really.

D

This implies that the person is being somehow manipulative, whereas I think they are struggling as an 'alcoholic' and reaching out in honesty. The best they can do at this time, this place.

I must be a really bad communicator today.
Headlining the thread honesty was probably a mistake - too emotive.

I'll try again.

I want everyone to experience recovery.
Not my place to make that happen, but I'll do my part to help :)

I want everyone who cyber walks in here to know that we're rooting for them.

I understand that folks are at all different points. I just wonder if we do people a disservice sometimes trying to avoid challenging them....

Cocoons are fine, but butterflies are better.

I don't want anyone to settle for second best, and I want anyone who feels the best they can do is post here while drinking to know that we'll do our best to change their minds and help them get to a better place.

D

I don't see many people here doing that, Dee. Falling back on 'honesty' as reason to continue drinking that is. Might get the odd one, but they don't seem to last long. They continue to drink. Alas and alack.

I think most people 'fess up' to drinking because they genuinely want to be sober and are struggling. Those who don't, live their own lie, and will probably drink again. Ego. So better to be honest if we drink in my opinion. And I think that's what most here do. We deny the entire purpose otherwise.

Maybe we are both making the same point, but honestly believe not many here use 'honesty' as a means to continue. And if they do, I suppose it's honest, just doesn't achieve much.

I think it's important to challenge, and I think that happens here.

Good one, Dee.

I was initially confused whether you were referring to those who came here and fessed up that they drank and rationalized their reasons for doing so. Speaking for myself, i was always ashamed to return and report another failure.

However, reading it a couple times more, I think you’re referring to folks who are posting while they’re currently drinking? Do you think it’s when they’re feeling the most shame, remorse and disgust at themselves?

I like this post!

I think we might be talking about the same thing, Dee. I'm a bit confused, too.

It's a huge topic, honesty. I don't know if I've got the brains to condense it to a couple of paragraphs.

I'm going to make a cup of tea. And yes, it's tea. :)

Thanks rar and Steely.
I tried to reframe my post in a different way but looks like that didn’t work as effective communication either.

I’ll try, for the last time cos this is getting recursive, for a Readers Digest condensation.
Lately there’s been several threads that have talked about honesty either directly or indirectly.

I wondered whether an honesty that extended to confessions of drinking - but *doesn’t seem to go any further than that* - i.e. into actively seeking solutions - was entirely a good thing or not.

I spent a long time metaphorically treading water with my addiction. I was able to rationalise myself into a effective standstill that lasted years.

That’s why I’m not afraid to challenge people here if I think it’s appropriate to do so.

We must all want the same thing in the end - recovery- or none of us would be here.

It really shouldn’t need saying but my discussion was meant to be abstract. It was not my intent to shame anyone, to judge them, or to accuse them of being manipulative or anything else.

D

Got it!

Sort of like the serial killer who thinks he's no longer responsible 'cause he's being honest about being a serial killer, then goes on to kill? 😂

Sorta like that. :)

Dee, I’m sure no one would think they were being shamed by you- especially you! I see what you’re saying, though.

Maybe shame shouldn’t have been the word I used for myself. Certainly I disappointed myself, but I also disappointed folks here too. It was a bit of a struggle to return, since SR had invested so much time in me. SR has helped me in the past and I knew I needed SR’s help still again. I, too, treaded water rationalizing my relapse. One of my rationalizations was that I was in the late autumn of my life and it was okay to tread water rather than swim.

Anyway, Dee, you are most wise and kind. You would never deliberately hurt anyone. Everyone here knows this. If someone feels any anguish as a result of your challenges, it’s on them.

Got it too- 🤗

We made it Rar. 😊

I've felt the shame too. Very difficult to disclose a relapse, but when I have it has been huge relief. Carrying the lie has always held me back. More shame, which I definitely don't need.

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up. :)

Hey, never challenge a serial killer on a dark night tho. 😂

I can comment on this because I'm definitely one of the offenders and glad to see such a relevant discussion for me. I can elaborate from the point of view of the dishonest person trying to get out of both the dishonesty and the drinking problem, at the pace of some sick, old turtle :).

I've had three rounds of long threads in the last 6 or so months, typically starting very dishonest, with an evasive, misleading topic, then becoming suspicious so some people would take the plunge and call me out straight... I think I usually respond to that very well, that's when my intentions take a turn and I realize what's truly the point of what I'm doing and being here... either we talk about what is truly going on and try to come up with possible new ways of looking at it, better motivations and strategies to change, or it's totally useless and becomes just another one of the hundreds of cycles before. Sometimes I continue the distractions in a few more posts if I still drink, sometimes just feel a bit lost and go in circles for a while even when I'm sobered up, trying to find what could be better next steps. But in the end, those long threads of mine have always led to people offering new and, at least, some practical ways of looking at the larger picture, tailored to the kind of situation I am in, and a bunch of (at least small) new tweaks to try. There is, of course, always some projection-based "advice", which is not so relevant to my specific situation, but everyone just means well, shares their experiences, and tries to help. I feel that sometimes the self honesty fails at that point, when people consider the feedback as attack - this is not a problem for me personally, but very common I think. Anyway, at that point, I have usually stopped drinking and can re-read with more accurate perception, and pretty easily extract and synthesize what is the most relevant, useful and forward-looking for me from the pool of feedback I get. Then come up with a newer plan, or an adjusted one. From then on, the implementation becomes the most important and it's really down to me whether it succeeds, fails, or falters.

So I absolutely second challenging, and it works for me not only here but also in any area of my life. I always like support and advice that challenges my current views and methods, and people who are not afraid to do that. What I personally don't find helpful (especially when I'm stuck in an acute self-sabotaging cycle) is pure compassion or "you got this" type feedback with a tone suggesting I'm already on a good track when I have not even made the first step. It does not offer anything useful that I can try either to think or do differently, can even feel enabling. I also personally don't like when people say I should not be critical of myself (is the lying/rationalization better?), although this is a bit more complex/individual, because too direct criticism (either from self or others) can be further damaging for someone who has a lot of deep-seated, paralyzing self-esteem issues that are part of the main culprits perpetuating the addiction. It's not for me, I think this is part of why constructive criticism and challenge works for me. But when I try to give it to others, it often goes nowhere. Recently though, I have finally been getting a good dose of that here on SR, guess that's the advantage of having been here on SR for so long, people get a sense of my style even if not my actual reality. Even just comments when people openly say I'm utterly confusing and they just don't know what else to say and are not interested anymore, are very helpful. It gives me instant sense of some of the social consequences of my addiction and how I "manage" it, without having to experience it in more important domains of my real life again.

I don't think the challenging is effective for everyone though, and I personally see more cases here on the forum where it does not seem to go anywhere because people keep blaming their active addiction on others or circumstances/events, are not honest about those being triggers and not causes, become defensive when that is questioned, focus primarily on shame and hurt, then most others soften up because no one wants to destroy anyone else here. Then it never gets to a point to reach a more solution-oriented focus/discussion. It's hard to give any further direct suggestions to someone who does not express any openness and appreciation for it, I think in part even because it's not rewarding for the advisor. Not sure what you think about this Dee, and others.

The "confession" threads also often end in a lot of comments that continue digressing all over the map, focus more on relating to the rationalizations and circumstances, external events etc etc and not on what the person who is confessing the problem could do next to tackle it. Sometimes becomes more like a cafe conversation and pure venting. Then the initial honesty and intent gets buried and kind of lost. I personally think the confession-type honesty is important, but it's only a first, very small step. I now do that relatively easily when I want and am given even a tiny push, but still get stuck later and get back into some of the old, dishonest and distraction habits. The implementation of any recovery strategy requires the strongest and most consistent honesty for the addict to truly evaluate progress IMO, whether they do it on their own primarily, involve others in details, and everything in-between. I think the focus is often placed on the initial confession-type honesty and the most important kind does not develop or not far enough. Is this closer to what you tried to bring across Dee? Sorry about it being this long-winded, just give me a hint that an abstract discussion is welcomed... :)

Getting sober is real hard work.

When we are honest with ourselves about any situation we can then reach out in hopes to find a solution to the problem that is ailing us. We cannot find answers if we are lying to ourselves and then subsequently lying to others. I think people are as honest as they can be at any given moment.

Alcoholism/ addiction has so many layers to it and unraveling those layers seems daunting. It is the unraveling that takes us into recovery. Honestly, from my perspective, it was easy to stop using alcohol. When I say easy, I mean the initial phase of not using and getting through the physical withdrawal was a lot easier than the road ahead. The Mt. Everest climb with cinder blocks strapped to my back came next. That mountain contained all of the steps I had to take to get to a place of feeling freedom from my addiction. Those steps and the honesty I had to have with myself were monumental. Sometimes I had to stop and take a breather and say " Hey Guys, this is epically BRUTAL!" No exaggeration. It was a hard fought battle. The road of recovery is very interesting and it has its ups and downs. Its a beautiful road with lots of tools to utilize but we first have to be honest with who and what and how....... The nuts and bolts of it all!

Thanks for raising this topic Dee. I am always amazed at how fundamentally dishonest addicts are -- whether we became dishonest to hide our addiction or whether the type of person who becomes addicted is more likely to also be dishonest is an open question. Even after so many years after stopping drinking, I myself find that I am often dishonest even when I don't need to be. -- its a habit. And a bad one.

Hi A,

Ok, so right after your “I am one of the…”, It’s “I CAN ELABORATE FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF …”.

So, “some sick, old turtle.” is still acting like “some sick old turtle.” Or as I would call it, still acting like an amoral detached talking automaton.
How DARING of us to “take the plunge”
to someone who the first time was pissed she spilled the beans while drunk, to someone who on the third (identified) time says…
while drunk. (And now on to the meat of the conversation which when you trim off the fat ends up with virtually nothing, as I see it.)
Why not just say you will not be dishonest with posting while under the influence of alcohol/drugs any more instead missing the whole point and being just long-winded? Or, does that inject a level of personal morality beyond where you want to go?

GT

Very much relate to this, Dropsie. For me, it started way before the addiction (in childhood). As an adult, I'm always generally much more honest while in a good phase of life, especially with some abstinence that feels satisfying, and it's absolutely the worst while in a bender, or planning one. I think it's so unfortunate that many people in society sees alcohol as some kind of truth serum, and people saying things under the influence as especially open and honest. That's not honesty by any means IMO, it's just twisted, often irrelevant and useless disinhibition.

So, in my case at least, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, but there was definitely a lot of dishonesty, hiding, all sorts of secrecy and "strategy to get what I want" before I even tasted alcohol for the first time. Ironically, I've found very early on domains in my life (mostly professional) where the game-playing really pays off and plenty of others even praise me for doing it well, seek my advice on how to do it well, even pay me for such "strategical" advice (in consulting). So it's a bit hard to break the cycle in this way and often very challenging to separate those professional strategies leading to success from similar "strategies" in my personal life that keeps leading to failures and running in circles, even this dead-end race with the addiction. For anyone who relates and wants to do some deep psychological exploration once they have sobered up, I think this area is very worthwhile both to investigate and to improve. I've looked at this about myself before but obviously not enough, and not in ways that would lead to much better outcomes.

GT - thanks for your response as always. The discussion on this thread is not meant to be about me though, I am just one example and wanted to use it as an example, one version. I think there are many versions of it. I was trying to highlight that simply being honest about drinking or not drinking, even if it's 100% truthful at any given time, leads nowhere if there is no further, truthful action to follow up the recovery from both dishonesty and drinking, in a consistent manner. In any case, I think I've said what I wanted and will get out of this thread because I have enough experience on how I can lead a bunch of others into the woods that become completely irrelevant and useless cycles (what I said earlier), and not my intention now.

I think on this site as it is an aide to maintaining sobriety. If someone slips yet has a genuine desire to stop they should be honest about it. But if your blatantly using and being an impossible nuisance that's a whole different ballgame.

Your never drinking again is not an “outcome” that happens to you. It is a “willful pledge of permanent abstinence.” For two that are still here, Obladi and Fusion (finally) have professed to have done it without any evidence of dishonesty. Why don’t you do it, too?

GT - this particular thread is not about me in depth, let's please keep decent boundaries and give room to everything and everyone else, okay? If you want to obsess more and continue the discussion about me specifically, please post that on my thread, I will look at it and respond if I think it's helpful for me to do so. Thanks! :)

"I wondered whether an honesty that extended to confessions of drinking - but *doesn’t seem to go any further than that* - i.e. into actively seeking solutions - was entirely a good thing or not."

My opinion is that is definitely not a good thing. Challenging people who are actively using on SR or in any other live or online forum is delicate sometimes. I often hesitate to do that because I do want people to tell us where they are at, and in the past I have challenged people in ways that turn out to be not helpful and supportive. That is totally on me though, and nobody else. One person on SR a few months back said I was the reason she drank again for a month and that kept me up for a few nights.

I think you are spot on Dee, as you usually are. The best thing we can do for anyone is to move them towards sobriety and a healthy recovery. My only hesitation to carry out the very best mission we can possibly carry out here on SR is down to my own inadequacies in communicating, nothing more. If my sense tells me that a person just needs some company right now, I might be ok with leaving it at that if I think my dunder-headed words might make things worse.