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Originally Posted by hypochondriac
(Post 3635119)
I'm pretty sure only AA requires a higher power, it's just a lot of people use AA and it has infiltrated a lot of outpatient programs as well. I think alcoholism is a bit like depression, there's not one thing which will help everyone, you need to find what will work for you. I love CBT approaches to alcoholism, it works better in my head than the emotional approach to it. I have some links to stuff like that if you're interested PM me x Have you looked into AVRT or SMART? |
Here you go!
Originally Posted by dredg
(Post 3635291)
I would love some links. I tried to send you a message but it stated that I need to have 5 posts. Thanks |
Wow. Thanks everyone for the replies. There's some good stuff here. Thanks again! |
I suspect that the reason for the emphasis on an outside force in recovery programs (AA, treatment centers that make AA part of their program, counselors etc.) is due to the fact that a vast majority of alcoholics are so wrapped up in themselves that the concept a higher power (set aside for a moment whether it is true or not) helps break the feel-good-now, self-centered thinking of alcoholism. Why do people drink? They drink because they like the effect! The effect is that it makes them feel better. It often comes with a host of problems, often very VERY serious problems. Yet they continue to drink. Why? Because it makes them FEEL better NOW. It makes THEM feel better. Somehow FEELING GOOD NOW becomes more important than anything. How self-centered is that? It’s infantile when you honestly look at it. Waa Waa Waa I want my bottle now. Yes, that was me too, as much as I hate to admit it and as much as I told myself that this was not true. Freedom from the boundaries of self. It’s the key for many. To adopt a principled life. To value the greater good, that is, what is best for all rather than what is good for me alone. And NOT to just value it, but behave in such a way that displays this principle. It’s a radical change in thinking for the typical alcoholic and it's often been shown to work. |
Well you could just stop putting ethanol in your mouth and swallowing it. That would work. It's what I did. In my experience, chronic drunkenness is a bad habit. Stop. If you can't manage it yourself there is AA, SMART, AVRT, et al. that might help you change enough to stop drinking. |
Interesting perspective awuh1. I do believe, however, that one can adopt or have a principled life without believing in any sort of higher power. Fortunately as this thread has shown it is rapidly becoming a moot point. |
as i forgot in my first post, Welcome to SR, Dredg...it's very helpful to me to stay sober. the conversation is diversified and thoughtful.. you'll learn for yourself that certain people gravitate to different threads and learn a lot about programs. there is no "correct' way to get sober and happy, but you can take a little from every program and make your own too....that's real progress! |
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
(Post 3635276)
dredg: Thanks for bringing up this topic. It's an important one and comes up quite a bit around here. First, it's not really that "a lot of" recovery programs rely on a higher power: it's that the 12 step based ones (i.e., AA, NA) which use that philosophy have been around the longest and (at least in the US) have been adopted institutionally--so that it's still difficult in some areas to find treatment programs that aren't based on them. Historically, this turned out to be a really bad thing for people who didn't find that the 12 step philosophy fit them. The situation is changing (which I'll talk about in a minute) but for a long time, those of us who didn't fit into 12 step literally had no place to turn. We were told we were hopeless; our questions were used as proof that we were "in denial" or didn't want to quit our addictions. This was still very much the situation when I quit drinking in the late 90s and it led to a years-long effort on my part to fit myself into the 12 step world, thinking there was something wrong with me. But, thankfully, things have been changing. For a whole bunch of reasons--including the rise of evidence-based medicine, the rise of the internet and the increasingly vocal movement toward choice in recovery approaches--other approaches have become better known and it has become increasingly unacceptable for people who don't use "higher power" based approaches to get shouted down and denigrated. The change has been extremely noticeable on this website, where there's been a wonderful opening up and sharing between and among people who use different approaches. It's not that the 12 step folks don't believe in their philosophy anymore, and it's not that the non-12-step folks have changed their minds, it's that we all recognize that one size does not fit all and have come to respect that different points of view are valid. So, maybe your goal here should not be to further agonize over 12 step and why it isn't your thing...just find something that IS your thing. I've gravitated toward SMART Recovery, but there are also other non-faith-based support groups such as LifeRing, SOS and Women for Sobriety, and there's Rational Recovery which is not a support group but an approach. And there's nothing wrong with using a combination of approaches, or using SR for support. It's all about what works FOR YOU. 12 steps might be okay for those who need a bit of spiritual/new age religion but thankfully people are slowly rising up to their ineffectiveness for real addicts. The likes of SMART and AVRT are starting to get the recognition they deserve. I would guess in years to come this forum will be primarily secular. Which is as it should be. By the way, I have practiced spirituality and religion my entire life so am not against it. I just think 12 steps confuse people and get in the way of recovery. |
AA is a great program for many people. Many people really respond to the spiritual recovery principles. It is wonderful that there are alternatives... AA isn't the problem. Trying to force someone into it that doesn't want it is the problem. |
Dredg, lilac0721, and anyone else too can feel free to drop me a pm, I'll be more than happy to talk with you about this stuff. |
Originally Posted by makeabigplan
(Post 3635368)
I would guess in years to come this forum will be primarily secular. Which is as it should be. This thread was about why do recovery programs require a higher power, not whether or not SR should be secular. Well, I will hang around a while, to offer my experience, strength and hope to newcomers, if I help just one person get sober, then I have made a difference.... To the OP... AA does have this amazing fellowship... meetings, literature and hot coffee and friendly wonderful people whose only desire is to help you recover because it helps us do the same... :) |
Mark..I do believe you have helped many people get sober and will continue to do so. It seems to me however that makeabigplan has a point. The world in general is getting more secular it would only be natural that sites like this would follow suit. I for one am grateful that alcoholics and addicts alike can find recovery without having to adopt ideologies that don't sit well with them. Dredg being a perfect example. |
I went to AA meetings too, and met some of the kindest, most generous people in my life. I was welcomed without reservation. I recommend attending AA meetings for the support and fellowship AA offers, there really is nothing like it. |
Welcome to SR Dredg :) As you can see there are many methods of recovery being utilised here at SR - my advice is pick the one that speaks to you most and run with it :) D |
Originally Posted by ru12
(Post 3635405)
AA is a great program for many people. Many people really respond to the spiritual recovery principles. It is wonderful that there are alternatives... AA isn't the problem. Trying to force someone into it that doesn't want it is the problem. The problem is the one-size-fits all thing. No program or philosophical approach should have a monopoly, not AA, not SMART, not AVRT, not anything. |
Originally Posted by dredg
(Post 3635097)
Why can't science be involved here? When they can pull my spirit out of my body and say here you go, it's not a series of synapses and neurotransmitters in your brain. It's a spirit! Shake its hand! I’ll believe then. These phenomenon are not adequately explained by classical physics and defy Cartesian logic. They do however fit more comfortably into 21st century quantum physics. The fact that these experiences are reported at all should give one pause to reflect. Keep an open mind. |
Keep an open mind is excellent advise..not so much however that your brains fall out! |
Why? Because it worked when nothing else would and continues to work for 3+ yrs Not only me but millions of others. Can not argue with success |
dredg..I sincerely hope that you have found the answers that you were looking for..as you can see there are so many different paths that you can choose regarding sobriety...the one thing that they all have in common and the single most important component..don't ingest alcohol..ever. You don't have to believe anything that makes you uncomfortable but you do have to want sobriety more than you want to drink! |
Originally Posted by nobshere
(Post 3635785)
Keep an open mind is excellent advise..not so much however that your brains fall out! I just started looking into AVRT and went to Barnes and bought Rational Recovery: The new cure for substance addiction. So far it seems promising. I noticed a lot of people that have replied to my post have mentioned it. Thanks! |
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