We CAN be social drinkers?
 

I know we don't need any more negativity, but this worries me, so thought I'd get your views. I just read about a book called "Phoenix in a Bottle", written by an alcoholic couple, Lillian & Murdoch MacDonald. (They have challeneged AA to a debate on this subject.) They maintain that Alcoholism is not a progressive or incurable disease, but a response to a dysfunctional childhood. We are not addicted to alcohol, but to the escape we find when drinking. If we get to the underlying problem of why we need that escape, we'll be cured of our drinking problems! The reason I'm concerned is, they are trying to convince us that once we find out what's causing us to self-medicate, we can then go on to be social drinkers - as they have done. I know we've said many times on here, whatever works for you is what matters, but how much damage will this "revelation" do?

uh uh. No way no how.

Might sell books but it makes my blood boil. It would kill many of us here if we followed that.
I have a certain sympathy with the dysfunctional childhood thing, and I certainly used alcohol to escape...but there are coping strategies that *won't* destroy your life and slowly kill you.

I don't want to drink alcohol any more. I don't know why anyone would, looking at the damage it does to ourselves our lives and our loved ones.

D

Hi Joanie,

Reminds me of the lady who founded Moderation Management or whatever it was - and she ended up killing someone while driving under the influence - and finally admitted that there is no moderating for an alcoholic.
I'm doing a lot of family of origin work - and I have no illusions about my alcoholism. My childhood may have been somewhat traumatic, but it was that, coupled with the disease of alcoholism, genetic factors, that made me an alcoholic.
There are many who had traumatic childhoods and didn't grow up to become addicted.
I suspect the authors are trying to make some money - and I'm sure they are speaking their truth - it worked for them. I would suggest, though, that they aren't alcoholics of my type. Maybe it will work for others - who knows.
It wouldn't work for me though.

Hi...I haven't become an alcoholic because i stopped before it became my main addiction..or for some other reason...

but to me there are destructive paths i know i can never go back to..no matter what..once you see the real dark, you can never, ever go back there...

that's my opinion...for now...

I know for me I will NEVER be a social drinker. For some, however returning to social drinking may be an option. Everyone is entitled to their point of view, hopefully no one will get hurt in the process.

It just made me angry the way they attacked AA as being too religious (half of the 12 steps mention "God" according to them), and too out-dated. As we said when we were recently discussing Rational Recovery, why is there a need to bash another program? For me, yes - I had overprotective parents who inadvertently kept me from growing up in a healthy way, but I don't see how that could be an excuse for me to go on and nearly destroy myself decades later. I also know many with terrible backgrounds who never touch it. Sadly, I have a friend who is all excited about this book and sees it as a way around facing the inevitable. Meanwhile, what a great excuse for him to keep on drinking. Also, how many of us are in a position to be psychoanalyzed in order to dig for the root of our problems? I sure never was.

Leave it to someone that wouldn't mind being a "Social Drinker" I see absolutley no point in drinking 2-3 drinks a week.
Why bother drinking at all?

That is exactly the reason I know I am an alcoholic! Kinda funny that most of us can't even understand the concept of 2 or 3 a week.

I know I can't be a social drinker...

Well, maybe I can for about 10 minutes and then I lose the ability to control it and end up drinking for weeks, so for me it's a no-no... :(

The horrible part for me just now is that there is still a voice that sometimes tells me it's ok to drink, and it can be very hard to convince myself it's not ok anymore...

All it takes is one sip for me....I know the voice of which you speak...it's lying!!! You know it and I know it! When the voice talks I know it is easier to ignore it than to give in and wake up the dragon.

The only think that seperates me from i social drinker is
I don't drink anymore.

It's wierd i know..but the only time i ever say I'm alcoholic
to anyone is in an AA meeting.lol
Becuase it's like a tradition..i guess we're penguins.lol

I don't belive you have to intruduce yourself as an alcoholic
in a meeting...but you know how that gose :rof
I just say my name sometimes...people look at me cross eyes.lol

I was told once "we don't drink for the taste we drink for the buzz, or the bars would be empty"... wisdom of my alcoholic father.
Social drinking is still escapism to me. To alter ones state is to escape from reality. I know I can't stop drinking once I start and that I am addicted to it.

I haven't read the book and I most likely won't read it.

Having said that I would be interested to know what their view on other programs of recovery are. AA is not the only program that holds abstinence as the ultimate goal of recovery. So does this couple also hold that WFS, AVRT, ect....are also a bunch of lies? Also, their theory on childhood trauma seems a bit off to me since I grew up in a very loving environment. It seems like a huge claim they make . . . I would be interested in hearing how they came to this conclusion.

whatever program works for you is the one...

Control my drinking is possible if I am perpetually drunk and can do all my socialising work and general living from a horizontal position, totally mad.

Strangely enough, I prefer the life I have.

Focus on what keeps you sober and let the rest go.

Kevin

I've tried the "social drinker" thing, it doesn't work for me. It may work for some alcholics, but I would assume they are small in numbers, and may not have had big time drinking problems to begin with.

And I wonder how long they've been on their "program" of social drinking? I know at times I was able to control myself for a period, but it always led back to a living hell, binging and blackouts. Wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them crash and burn at some point down the road.

I find that part about having dysfunctional childhood interesting. Personally I had a very dysfunctional childhood - I have few memories of being with my parents as a child as I was practally raised by my baby-sitter. Although I got good results in school (without even trying too hard. I don't remember ever doing any homework at all) I was serverly dysfunctional at school too, I was a loner, never making signifcant connections with the other kids.

However I know that personally I can't be a social drinkiner. I tried every night to "just have 3 or 5" drinks, but i'd always end up going home on my hands and knees.

I, too, would question the length of their experiment in social drinking and I would also question the definition of alcoholism. Heavy drinkers may or may not be alcoholic, may or may not be able to learn to moderate. We know who we are.

The fact that they're proposing this as a solution for alcoholics assumes (according to the above description) that all alcoholics had unhappy childhoods. Sure, I had what would be considered by most an extremely traumatic childhood, but I know that's not the reason I'm alcoholic. It may have brought my alcoholism to the forefront a little sooner, but it's not the reason. I also know lots of alcoholics who describe their childhoods as ideal. My husband is one. No one beat him, deprived him, oppressed him, pushed him to achieve. His life was normal in every way until he began to drink.

What drives people to propose solutions such as this? My best guess: financial gain and extreme ego. I know my method of recovery works for me, but I wouldn't dream of suggesting it's the only way for everyone. Just like the James Frey book of a few years ago, lies and glittering generalizations kill people. I hope that they can afford a very comfortable bed from the proceeds of their book so that they can sleep at night.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

That was great, Sugah. Well I just got madder & madder reading the stuff they've said about AA needing an overhaul, etc. so I emailed the author, Lilian MacDonald, and asked her why they felt it necessary to bash AA, why not just tell their story without the attack? I also asked her if they weren't concerned about all the people they may be harming by selling them the idea that they can moderate. We'll see if she answers!

There has recently been a popular movement to bash AA/NA and offer all manner of alternative avenues to recovery...several even quote outrageous statistics as proof of their claims. I'm not really angered by this "trend" as much as I'm saddened and fear for those that would pursue the more questionable programs...we all know how strong the draw of addiction is and any hope of normalcy no matter how ridiculas is bound to entice some to try these paths. I truly hope that some will find in these alternative programs a direction that will lead them to recovery!

For me...I'll stick with what I know works, I live life fully and would like to continue to do so. I know I have one more drunk in me...but I don't know if I have one more sober in me...I'm very afraid not!!!

i just dont believe i could ever drink like a gentleman... http://board.freeones.com/images/smilies/hatsoff.gif

Even if I could drink sometimes- and I mean drink, not two beers and a hot dog - I wouldn't want to. I see no point in poisoning myself anymore. Alcohol has no place in my life. I like what swmnkd said - I live life fully and would like to continue to do so.

The thought of my two children seeing me with so much as a buzz on sickens me. Drink socially - WHY?

Ain't noway nohow that's gonna happen. Sneak up behind me and take me out quickly and quietly if it does.

Mike

The shrinks are killing us...

The Psychological View

This view of recovery states that addiction is only a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder. In the years since the development of psychoanalysis, many psychological theories have been formed and promoted, each with its own view of the nature of the psychological causes of addictions. The theories range from Freud’s assertion that the alcoholic is expressing latent homosexual tendencies, to the Family Systems Theory concept of the addict as an actor of a role in a dysfunctional family system. Many of these theories, as they have each come into fashion, have had some impact on the Twelve Steps.

Currently, the psychological agreement seems to be that the addict is someone who uses to cope with some kind of pain. This pain might be the result of early child hood trauma, sexual abuse, a dysfunctional family system, low self-esteem, etc. The pain could also be produced by an existing mental disorder, such as Post Traumatic Stress, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, depression, etc. Addicts of this second kind are called “dual diagnosis,” because they are diagnosed with their mental disorder and addiction. Because addicts are seen as using to cope with pain, addiction is sometimes called “self-medicating.”

Recovery in the Psychological View is the process by which an addict learns appropriate methods of self-care. Treatment focuses on treating the source of the addict’s pain, and teaching the addict new ways to cope with pain. There is much talk about “feeling feelings,” and overcoming fears and shame. Sobriety is seen as a time of self-discovery, because feelings surface that were suppressed by using. Because most of these feelings are uncomfortable, the Psychological View attempts to help people in recovery to manage life while processing difficult emotions. Often, addicts are encouraged to use self-affirmations to build a positive self-image and increase self-esteem. Recovering people are instructed in the basics of self-care: hygiene, nutrition, sleep, and healthy social interaction. Sometimes, the word “H.A.L.T.” is used to remind people in recovery to stop and take care of themselves when they feel “Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired.” The Psychological View encourages proper medication for people who have a dual diagnosis, and regular talk therapy, with emphasis on processing the pain of childhood and difficult personal relationships.

Working the Twelve Steps is not central to the Psychological View of recovery. When the Steps are worked in this View, they tend to be an extension of the type of therapy mentioned above. One realizes one’s powerlessness and turns one’s life over to professional treatment. Inventory is usually “balanced,” meaning that for every negative aspect of self, there is a positive one as well. Inventory also tends to explore things like family dynamics, early child hood trauma, instances where the recovering person feels that he/she has been victimized, etc. Amends are not emphasized in the Psychological View. In fact, most Twelve-Step rehabs will only utilize the first five Steps. Twelfth Step work is almost non-existent in the Psychological View, as professional treatment is seen as filling the role of ‘sponsor.’

Meetings in this View are seen as important to the recovery process. The Psychological View understands meetings in nearly the same manner as does the Re-Socialization View. For the Psychological View, meetings are important not for mutual-aid as much as for group therapy. The emphasis is not on “we help one another out,” but “we each get our turn to process feelings.” Often, addicts exiting treatment will be instructed to attend “90 meetings in 90 days,” and meeting attendance is often part of the routine at rehab. However, in many cases, the Psychological View feels that meeting attendance is not enough for the recovering person. Regular visits to a councilor are encouraged.

The Psychological View’s expectations for recovering people are equal to or less than those of the Re-Socialization View. Addicts are expected to struggle greatly with mental obsession and difficult feelings for the rest of their lives. One figure in the Psychological View, Terrence Gorski, has defined what he calls Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. PAWS predicts that people in recovery will not be able to get better through meeting attendance and Stepwork. Instead, the addict needs to see a PAWS trained therapist, or they will have severe symptoms of Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome that will likely cause them to relapse. These symptoms can never be eliminated, only managed.

Stories of people recovering in the Psychological View often reflect their experiences in therapy. They speak of learning to feel their feelings, coming to grips with early childhood trauma, becoming better at taking care of themselves, or similar topics. Sometimes stories will include mention of Stepwork, but it is usually clear that this is Psychological and not Conversion Experience style Stepwork. Stories include much Psychological language, and will often focus on the emotional accomplishments of the speaker. The process of self-discovery and learning to love oneself feature strongly in Psychological View stories.

For more info:

http://stepstudy.org/html/basics/threeviews.html

Thanks, Groucho - that's such interesting info. In this book, these two quote unbelievable statistics regarding AA's failure rate. They need to be made accountable for the potential damage they're doing.

Swim Naked, you are so right - being older it became more & more a struggle to pull myself up out of the depths of a binge. One more could be my last, and if not, where would it end? Would I cross the median & take out a family in an SUV? (By the way, do you ever come to O.C. for bike week?)

Psychologist's view on drinking...
 

When I went to counseling back in 1970 my counselor told me that he didn't think I was an alcoholic but a person with life problems & that I drank to forget. Many years later this man was my boss and had a drinking problem. :skillet

I would quit for a year here and there but never stay quit. I went to AA about the same way and didn't get a sponsor or work the steps.

In 1988 I was at the end of another life event that I escaped from by drinking every day and all weekend. I finally came to the end of the road and asked for help again but this time I had to detox in a hospital, get help for depression/clinical and went to AA, got a sponsor, & worked the steps. :day4

That was 19 years ago and I am still sober and still being treated for my depression with a stability in both.

I wanted to be sober more than anything else in my life and I was willing to do everything suggested. I had a counselor for my depression and one for my alcoholism besides my daily AA meeting for the first year of my sobriety. It worked and it is still working today. :Dance7:

kelsh

Ask Audrey Kishline if she would like another chance to manage her drinking.

I think those people are still in the control stage. Sounds like work to stop drinking after one drink.

One thing I do need to say, and thanks kelsh for pointing it out.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking help from a Psychologist, Psychiatrist, Counselor, Therapist or other health care professional. Some in recovery have problems other than alcoholism and one should always seek appropriate treatment.

There is an excellent discussion of this topic in the book "Beyond Recovery".

There are mental health professionals that understand alcoholism, but I venture to say that most do not.