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-   -   Class of August 2013 - Part 12 (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/newcomers-daily-support-threads/333690-class-august-2013-part-12-a.html)

advbike 06-16-2014 11:29 PM

Yeah the side effects can be bad. mine was. The solution? Try another one. Um, no thanks. And the withdrawal can cause hallucinations and all sorts of other serious problems. Not for me, but again - lifesavers for some. My point, made poorly, was what JD said. Too many docs prescribing unnecessary drugs in this country. Kids on 'em too. Just look at how the prescription costs have skyrocketed, the barrage of tv ads, etc. Our lives are pretty much run by corporations anyway but this is over the top. Sorry for the rant, been cranky lately. Maybe I can get a pill for that.

foolsgold66 06-16-2014 11:52 PM

The trouble with drugs and money, is without money, there would be no drugs. I don't think we have a government or other body in the world that does much of anything in terms of medical or drug research without that motivator. What does that tell us? It tells me something that seems awfully cynical, but that I believe to be inherently true, and that is that as a species we PROFESS to value human life overall as much more precious than we actually do value it. That's just the tip of the iceberg in such evidence, drugs and money.

Dee74 06-17-2014 12:31 AM

There's a lot of things wrong with the world but there's a lot of things right with it, too :)

I'm very aware of the limitations of my own personal power. I do what I can to make the world better.

My personal preference is not to tarry too long on the dark side these days :)

D

Oceanlady 06-17-2014 03:50 AM

From my perspective I understand the misery of side effects, anyone's system can react differently to any substance. However, the positives of medication far outnumber the negatives. Look at our live span,consider the mentally ill person that can live a fairly normal life and look at some of us who with a little Prozac enjoy life to a greater degree.
I have been wined and dinned by pharmaceutical reps in the past and am aware of there methods. I do know that laws are a little tighter now on this, also most doctors now work for hospitals which do not allow this..
Right now I think I have a sinus infection and need some meds!!,

foolsgold66 06-17-2014 05:43 AM

Sorry if that seemed depressing. I guess it's my way of understanding the world without being inherently frustrated by it, is to reconcile certain things beyond their surface appearances.

jdooner 06-17-2014 06:02 AM

If you really want to get deep FG, what is money? Money is simply a currency of labor. A value of work. So then what does money really mean with relation to drugs? Money really means nothing from a mankind perspective.

I disagree with you the money is the problem. I believe lack of education is the real problem. Lack of understand or knowledge allows others to be manipulated good and bad. Greed, an inherent human trait plays a major role too.

Great discussion though and I did not think you were getting too depressing. In fact, we need more of this to uncover and search for truth, in my opinion.

foolsgold66 06-17-2014 06:20 AM

Actually I think we do agree, JD. Money itself isn't a problem, it's a necessary construct in a modern world. People make it a problem by mistaking it for a real store of value, and their ultimate goal. I suppose some of them can't be blamed, I've known a few folks that grew up poor that can't get past a compulsion to continue to make giant piles of it at the cost of not enjoying the fruits of their labor, lives, children, etc.

jdooner 06-17-2014 06:26 AM

I have never met anyone that has become very wealthy that did not truly love what they did and would do it anyhow if the money was removed. In fact, money I think confuses things. Marriages, careers, decisions. In my opinion its often why money and addiction go hand in hand. People, humans need purpose to live fulfilled life, in my opinion.

I believe its all about purpose and nothing to do with wealth. One's wealth should be measured on contribution vs. the zeros in the bank and this is coming from someone that used to think the zeros were all that mattered.

Sorry to get off on a tangent. Glad we agree:-)

foolsgold66 06-17-2014 06:55 AM

Yes, having money is nice. But having a purpose and doing some cool stuff is what it's really about. I was glad to see Bill Gates turn a corner in his life and start applying his personal wealth toward some philanthropic projects benefiting mankind as a whole.

Elseware 06-17-2014 09:52 AM

Having been "poor"and having been "rich" ( relatively) I can tell you that rich is better. That feeling of security beats everything everytime. However, I have always had my self to contend with and that part of life has never changed, has always been the same. Life is hard for me and always has been. I've been this way since I was small and know no other way. It doesn't matter what is outside of me. In side of me the world is a scary insecure place. I'm pretty sure this has much to do with my addictions to drugs and alcohol. With them inside me I was able to cope albeit in a pretty self destructive and maladaptive manner. When I got depressed last winter it was not surprising. I think I've been running from the dark as fast as I could for many, many years. And last winter it came down hard. Without the help of the psych drugs I am afraid I would be dead now or on the back ward of some hospital.

I know there are books and theories about big pharmaceutical companies but consider this. These articles and books are making statements. Do they have double blind studies to back their statements ? Any body can write anything and publish it. Have you any idea how labour intensive developing a new drug is? Consider the education the researchers need to get where they are . Most of them have PHDs or MDs. The cost of the equipment used is unbelievable. Just look up how much one gas chromotographer costs. Consider the careful collation by staffs of statisticians. These people all have to be paid and it goes on and on.

Yes, I consider some of the "n" groups pretty small. Yes, I consider some of what they do with their patents usury. I am on one drug which cost 700 dollars a month. The drug is unique. They have the patent. I tried to stop taking it but went right back down into black depression. So I was angry. It felt like blackmail and it sort of is. I found a Canadian pharmacy which sells it to me at 1/3 the price.

But I can't tell you how much I feel " saved". I wish these drugs could permanently change my brain in a way that would make it different than it is. But they can't. I feel I'm just sort of limping along. I realize this is how it is now. But I am coping better. Getting used to it. Coming to acceptance. I don't sit around thinking up ways to die anymore. A way that wouldn't leave some mess. I haven't even said on here how close I was to ending it all. But there you go. The absolute only reason I'm still here now is that I chose to suffer rather than have my son have a mother who committed suicide. So I chose a doctor and drugs.

I believe these drugs saved my life. I don't wish to come off angry but I feel like I wanted to come out for the other side of the pharmaceutical industry. Because for me there was no other viable choice.

jdooner 06-17-2014 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by Elseware (Post 4723599)
Having been "poor"and having been "rich" ( relatively) I can tell you that rich is better. That feeling of security beats everything everytime. However, I have always had my self to contend with and that part of life has never changed, has always been the same. Life is hard for me and always has been. I've been this way since I was small and know no other way. It doesn't matter what is outside of me. In side of me the world is a scary insecure place. I'm pretty sure this has much to do with my addictions to drugs and alcohol. With them inside me I was able to cope albeit in a pretty self destructive and maladaptive manner. When I got depressed last winter it was not surprising. I think I've been running from the dark as fast as I could for many, many years. And last winter it came down hard. Without the help of the psych drugs I am afraid I would be dead now or on the back ward of some hospital.

I know there are books and theories about big pharmaceutical companies but consider this. These articles and books are making statements. Do they have double blind studies to back their statements ? Any body can write anything and publish it. Have you any idea how labour intensive developing a new drug is? Consider the education the researchers need to get where they are . Most of them have PHDs or MDs. The cost of the equipment used is unbelievable. Just look up how much one gas chromotographer costs. Consider the careful collation by staffs of statisticians. These people all have to be paid and it goes on and on.

Yes, I consider some of the "n" groups pretty small. Yes, I consider some of what they do with their patents usury. I am on one drug which cost 700 dollars a month. The drug is unique. They have the patent. I tried to stop taking it but went right back down into black depression. So I was angry. It felt like blackmail and it sort of is. I found a Canadian pharmacy which sells it to me at 1/3 the price.

But I can't tell you how much I feel " saved". I wish these drugs could permanently change my brain in a way that would make it different than it is. But they can't. I feel I'm just sort of limping along. I realize this is how it is now. But I am coping better. Getting used to it. Coming to acceptance. I don't sit around thinking up ways to die anymore. A way that wouldn't leave some mess. I haven't even said on here how close I was to ending it all. But there you go. The absolute only reason I'm still here now is that I chose to suffer rather than have my son have a mother who committed suicide. So I chose a doctor and drugs.

I believe these drugs saved my life. I don't wish to come off angry but I feel like I wanted to come out for the other side of the pharmaceutical industry. Because for me there was no other viable choice.

Else I am glad you are feeling much better. I can't speak for others so I will stick with my experience and my perspective. I believe there are drugs developed for good and intended purposes. They save lives and without them people would have a lesser quality of life. My company has made billions from this market, as we have funded many of today's largest biotech companies. I am quite familiar with taking a drug from phase one through to market.

That said, in practice It is my own view that the US in particular wants a magic pill. We have become a society willing to turn to a drug before anything else. Too fat, here is a magic diet pill. Green coffee bean extract because Dr. Oz promotes it its safe. Do people question where its made in China or if it actually has what it says? Unhappy, here is a SSRI. Too hyper, here is some Ritalin - Ritalin is form of amphetamine BTW. There is a pill for every ism and the practice of many psychiatrists to to write script.

Why is this a commonly accepted practice? Because many of these doctors are getting paid five and six figure incomes from the drug companies. Does this create a conflict of interest? Most definitely. Does this mean all drugs are bad? Of course not.

Knowledge is power and everyone should be equipped with their own knowledge before they put things in their bodies in my opinion. But the masses are naive and many lack the knowledge. Many people believe if something is legal its okay - look at how people view scheduled drugs. If something is on the internet many view it as okay - what a joke that is. Sorry to get off topic but I think the bigger issue is not whether SSRIs are good or bad but the practice of over prescribing. As an aside what is the one thing that every mass shooting in the past few years has in common?

Anyhow, this is how I come out on this topic. I would prefer to try everything before I need to adjust my chemistry. My experience is once you start making adjustments then there are unintended consequences.

Elseware 06-17-2014 12:53 PM

Well said JD. There must be a balance somewhere. But finding it is beyond me.

I have a brother who, when he was a child, was what one would call hyperactive. He could not sit still . He disrupted the classroom. He would fly into rages. Just generally a child who would be totally medicated today. But he used all that high wired energy to become a brilliant (my words, I'm very proud of him) doctor who works out of Bethel, Alaska, bringing expert medical care to people without much hope for finding it. His quick mind is amazing to watch and his burning enthusiasm for life is much like yours, JD. He never stops trying to do the best he can for his patients. His mental health is very good from my perspective. He's also an avid sportsman, raised 4 great kids......I wonder if he would be where he is today if he'd been medicated as a child? My thinking is maybe not.

Questions like these have no answer right now. I feel people like me are guinea pigs. I am one of the ones in the experiment. I'm sure my psychiatrist watches and writes about his patients extensively. He's that kind of guy. I don't know what the answer is. I'm just trying to get along here as best I can.

kadidee 06-17-2014 02:15 PM

Hi guys, I need to catch up on all the posts--I just got home and haven't had Internet for a few days. Just checking in...today is day 6 of no cigarettes. Now though is where the rubber meets the road. Just for today, I will not buy any cigarettes.

Had a great time meeting our V in person. :)

jdooner 06-17-2014 02:56 PM

I have confidence in you Kadidee - you have the tools and are strong. Actually, compared to the booze and drugs, I found cigs so much easier. After a month I have yet to ever have a craving for a cig.

Oceanlady 06-17-2014 03:25 PM

Great real life story, Else.
Lots to think about here! Good luck quitting smoking K..have all the faith in the world in you!
Went to Dr today and found out I have bronchitis ..started meds and am happy I finally gave in and went..

Venecia 06-17-2014 05:16 PM

Hi, all --

Well, your old pal Venecia could use some counsel from her Board of Advisors (a.k.a., the SR Class of August 2013).

I work in a small department and we are all somewhat overworked. I tend to like my colleagues and my boss, though the latter can be a challenge. My boss has also been wonderful to me about doing what I need to do for self-care following Dad's death. I also had a *major* win for the organization this week and am somewhat of a golden girl at the moment.

We had a team meeting today and the boss said we could use some fun. True. So thoughts on a team outing? Right away, the popular choice (popular to all but one) was this gem of an idea: Go to one of the many craft beer places popping up around the Cities for a tour and a beer tasting.

I receded into a panicked, silent shell as the rest of the team was all on board and endorsing the idea with great enthusiasm. Going to a brewery was the consensus decision ... well, except for the mute sitting at the table (me) trying not to look horrified. I tried to send eye signals to the co-worker who knows I'm a recovering alcoholic -- something she knows but we've not discussed in a long time. (She's a lovely woman but she can also be a little slow on the uptake, to put it one way.)

I was mostly a wino but I also was a bit of a beero. I don't want to be outed; I don't even want suspicion raised, which I'm afraid some lame excuse would do. I'd rather throw myself under a bus than have my boss know. It's not their problem that I am a recovering alcoholic ... and a rather fragile one these days, though I'm proud to have hung onto my sobriety as I deal with Dad's death. And the truth is, my hard-working, nice colleagues deserve some fun.

Ideas? Suggestions? We don't have a date set yet. I've wracked my brain trying to think of something that would be greeted with the same enthusiasm as a beer tour but have come up empty. Right now, faking a sudden onset allergy to hops and barley is the only thing coming to mind.

Vexed Venecia

Elseware 06-17-2014 05:23 PM

Hi Venecia! That certainly is a difficult one. How many people are you talking about? Would somebody be out calling for you if you just didn't show?

Dee74 06-17-2014 05:30 PM

Hi Ven :)

I understand you don't want to reveal all.

I think the fact that your Dad recently passed is a perfectly reasonable and understandable excuse for not going on a brewery bacchanalia.

The simplest way tho is to make sure you have alternative plans for whenever the date is :)

D

jdooner 06-17-2014 05:46 PM

You could always use the "on antibiotics" excuse, which usually works. In th Northeast we usually use the Lyme Disease argument for the antibiotics and can't drink on antibiotics and this ia a serious disease - nothing to screw around with.

Ornithology 06-17-2014 06:45 PM

Venecia, I had a similar experience at my place of work. We had a team celebration at a nearby microbrewery. We rented the place, had a tour of the brewery, and an extended tasting that lasted a couple of hours.
I did not drink and no one noticed or cared.
This has happened several times now; I am the only person not drinking in a group at a brewery, Game One of the World Series at Fenway Park, a celebration, and no one notices or cares. I've learned to not care as well.
If asked, a simple "I'm not drinking tonight" is more than sufficient to redirect the conversation.
Congrats on being the "golden girl" at work.


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