Anvil,

Once again I have to thank you because your words always sink in with me.
Some of it I file---but I do it knowing I may desperately need it later .

I definetly dont regret calling 911 for BF; but it truly did scare me to think that someday I could allow myself to be put through so much because of BF drug addiction ... that I might reach a place within myself where I would question that decision. That is very heavy stuff.

And then just sensing the desperation felt when your in an OD situation; brought back feelings that I guess are more raw than I cared to admit.
Now that some time has passed; Im going to try to work on through these emotions.

I understand what you are saying about not being able to save those that dont want to be saved; that no matter what you do - if they are not ready and find it within themselves - it is basically hopeless.

I agree with that, but it is difficult to know; probably impossible to know exactly what it takes for an addict to reach the point where they say enough... Im done and I will do whatever it takes to never reach for it again.

I want to clarify that when I talk about consequences with my BF; the actions his dad took to help him, protect him ... they had no part in BF decision to quit. ... BF had not seen his dad in a year when he decided on HIS own that he was done. I also was not part of his life at that time; hadnt even met him yet. HE told me that HE decided to quit because he didnt want to die, and he thought that was going to happen soon.

BF had used coke a long time (sniffing it) and I think he managed it fairly well for a long time, but the last 3-4 months - he was shooting it. He said he became obsessed with it; with getting just the right dose while avoiding death.

I know he has a long way to go; if he hadnt had the relapse at xmas, then at the end of February it would have been a year clean. I know the relapse is a bad thing; but because of it he has started actual treatment; the 10 months was just cold turkey. I truly believe he wants this; and I do have faith in him.

But what I meant about his dad was that while his actions didnt stop BF from using; they did preserve parts of his life; left them untouched by this addiction so to speak. For example, BF had a house - you dont walk away from a house for over a year without paying your mortgage, and your taxes etc. His dad did that. Now BF still has a house... granted its in another state... but its still there.
BF got picked up for something with the drugs; but with his dads help; no charges were filed; so now he has no criminal record. Not to mention that with his profession he cant have any felonies; or he loses his license. So now he can still work. He worked for his dad; so he did get his salary cut off, but he still had health insurance... dont think he even knew that however. When BF ran out of cash, he used cash advances on his credit cards to get $, but who kept paying the credit card bills? Dad. I have to say he did this in part to try to locate his son, but that never actually worked out... but I honestly fear what BF might have done to get $ had he not had access.

So a lot of what his dad did was maybe indirectly affecting his consequences.
I dont know how to explain it; all I know is that without all that- BF would still have not have stopped until he was ready. And Im afraid for what would have happened to him without his dads help. There are just so many variables....

You are so strong Anvil and so smart (wise) ... I just really thank you for continuing to take the time to help me sort things out.

Ive never left the forum because I know I have to keep forcing my mind to accept the realities of addiction; and what could be headed my way if I continue down this road with him.

And it hits me so often.... Im the one who feels bad about taking 2 benadryl.

Hugs and thanks
Kel

Of course! :gaah
At least he wasn't able to sell it here anyway.
It made me furious, I guess using someone guilt or pain to make money.
Wish I could have sent him to JREF, to prove his snake oil (to win a million dollars) and let those brilliant people pull his pants down and spank him hard.
Till he ran away crying.
<snicker>

I was this person with my oldest daughter. I thought I needed to keep things safe for when she was ready to grow up...I didn't realize at the time that I was keeping her from growing up...the person "learning the lessons" was me, not her. When she finally had to face consequences, the discomfort drove her to figure out what she could do to change things. As she took responsibility for her choices and made her own decisions, her self confidence blossomed, she felt in control of her own destiny and today she is living an amazing life filled abundance, laughter and love. Great stuff to see and working my own side of things helps me to stay out of it and just feel the joy in seeing the beautiful young woman she is.

A member who used to post here once talked about the consequence of her paying her daughter's debts. It raised her addicted daughter's credit score so she became eligible for more and more credit cards and more and more cash advances to buy her drugs.

Hi English….

Your bf loves his intimate drug experience with all his heart. He has emergency props on hand so he can immerse himself in his drug and maybe not die. But he is willing to die for it.

That’s exactly why I said – who does that? A person isn’t rational or reasonable with a thought process like this; that’s why I get confused by the discussion on consequences.
I understand about the concept of making it easy for the addict to continue using by enabling; easing their consequences…. If they don’t suffer to some extent then why should they stop?

And your comments on this really hit home:

So when the drug starts abusing the addict, when the high is gone and the devil has taken over, that is when the addict tries to break up with the drug.

Because that is basically what my BF said made him quit. He realized the devil had taken over; and he was going to die. In the end; he was shooting the coke and odds were even the emergency props wouldn’t work to stop an OD because of how quickly it hit you. So when he realized he was addicted to not just the drugs, but the art of shooting the maximum amount while avoiding an OD; something clicked.

Regardless of what his dad did; I don’t think his pattern would have changed; until he heard that click.
But I still can’t say his dad was wrong in what he did to help him. I don’t think I’ve personally ever done anything to enable him; except for the night he OD’d – I did remove all the drugs before EMS came, because I had never called EMS before and I really didn’t know what they would do if they found drugs there; and yes I wanted to protect him . So clearly that is enabling.

What usually breaks up a love relationship is abuse. Painful, ongoing, shredding abuse.

I’m realizing this more and more as I stay on the forum and listen…….

Thank you for sharing your insight.
Kel

How long is too long for a parent to rescue an adult child? My AF and AM have been bailed out by their parents since they were teengagers. They are now both in their 60's. My AF will probably end up dying of some kind of end-stage alcoholism. My AM tried to kill herself via OD twice in the last year.

Bluebelle

I've thought a lot about your post; it touched me in many ways.

First I want to say I'm sorry my post on the OD triggered you to remember the event with your mom.

Regardless of addiction; mothers and daughters do share a special bond, and while I will never know what it's like to be in your shoes, I do know what it's like to watch your mom suffering. *My mom passed from cancer; after a long battle. *
However the courage my mom showed during her fight; it will always be an endless source of strength for me.

I thought about all the boundaries you listed; and I think I do understand what you mean about their being established for your sake; not hers.

They are based on your needs, to keep you strong and your head clear, to keep the chaos out if your life as much as possible... *To prevent my original concern.... Of getting to a place over time where I could stand and really believe in my mind - that BF and I would both be better off if he died of an OD.*

The posts that I've been reading they are really making me understand more fully the slow, silent descent our lives can take as codependents,

In response to your question how long should adults be bailed out? *I truly cannot answer this. *

I don't have experience with addiction; with dealing with people who are active in their addiction and who are acting irrationally, irresponsibly in such extreme ways. **

My parents have always helped me; even now my dad offers support in ways many would think unacceptable - but yet do I feel guilty? No. *Is it a sacrifice for him ? I'm sure at times helping me has been. *Do I appreciate it? *Yes. *Do I also do things in return to help him, or that helped my mom? Yes.*
Was it a sacrifice? *Sometimes. *
Do I have friends and co- workers that help their family members ? Yes. *

Is it different when you help an Addict? *I think one difference is that most time it won't be appreciated; or if it is ....it will be demonstrated much later....once they recover. *Do I think this effort without reward is harmful to the giver... It depends on their mentality. It's a personal decision; perhaps a gamble. **

Do I think this help hurts the addict? *Keeps them from reaching the bottom? *Sometimes yes, sometimes no. *Sometimes the help - is enough for them to see they are at the bottom. *

Mostly right now I just think it doesn't matter what a loved one does or doesn't do; every person has to set their own limits - so their life remains as normal and healthy as possible.*

And the addict; I think when they decide to stop; it could happen because of anything; or everything. It's just a click in their heads...and finding the courage within themselves to fight for their life

Thanks for responding. It sounds like you understand the sadness that I feel about my mom's situation.

I wish that my grandparents had stopped rescuing my mom 40 years ago. I wish that they had let her stay in jail after she was arrested for selling drugs when I was 14. They bailed her out, helped her get a lawyer, etc. She was immediately back to selling drugs out of her home. That was with me at home.

When she almost OD'd, she was in a nice home that they pay for. She drives a car that they pay for. She doesn't have a criminal record--not that it has mattered considering she does nothing with her life.

Don't get me wrong. I see nothing wrong with parents helping their adult children. My grandparents have helped me over the years. They have helped me with love, support, and yes, money.

Also, please realize that I love and respect my grandparents dearly. I don't want to give the impression that I blame them for my mother's illness.

I think of consequences as a natural result of actions. I don't think of them as a punishment by a parent or somebody else. It's just that if an addict makes a decision, then they suffer a consequence--just like anybody else would. I guess it's about not treating addicts differently. They are just as capable of suffering consequences, or at making the right decision.

BTW, if my RABF relapsed, I'm not sure how I would respond. I am trying to work on my own life and stay out of his recovery. However, I certainly don't know the right thing to do in all situations. I am just trying to share with you the story about my parents' addictions and what "helping" from their parents did not do for them. Take care.

Bluebelle,


I wish that my grandparents had stopped rescuing my mom 40 years ago. I wish that they had let her stay in jail after she was arrested for selling drugs when I was 14. They bailed her out, helped her get a lawyer, etc. She was immediately back to selling drugs out of her home. That was with me at home.*

I think anytime a child is involved the situation changes drastically.*
(I'm not being critical of your grandparents please don't get me wrong; I don't know the whole story).*
But I think in this situation, the Childs welfare should come first. Whatever that takes....and then concern for the addict.*

A person suffering from addiction; dealing drugs out of their home, this person is not able to be a responsible parent, provider, role model.

Sadly however I know this happens everyday. It seems from posts I have read; quite often even when family tries to notify children's services, the courts, probation officers....this may, or may not help. *The addict may be forced to comply to drug tests, or outpatient treatment, etc... But again unless the risk of losing their child is the thing that clicks' with them; they will only stop temporarily; and then start again. *Vicious cycle continues except maybe now the family that reported it is alienated by the addict & banned from seeing child.*

So many variables......

And your right Bluebelle; our boundaries change as needed; as situations change, as we change.

I really appreciate you sharing your personal story with me. *Your post again reminds me of really my biggest concern with staying with my BF; the decision to marry and have children with him.
I'm in no rush; but I well know that even after say 5 yrs of being clean, he could go back to it; then my situation would be extremely different. I honestly havent figured all that out yet

That's good that you have future children's interest in mind.

Yes, but I feel kinda guilty thinking that way ... It's like saying no matter how well BF does in recovery there will always be this seed of doubt. And how cruel is it for me to judge him like that .... Like saying he is permanently defective now and it's too risky for him to be a parent - Just in case of what "could " happen in the future . It's not like I truly believe that, but it's my darkest
thought.

Hate to tell you this Kelley, but as a recovering alcoholic with almost 31 continuous years, I still get 'doubts' about my own recovery, every time I hear of someone that I know/knew that went out after 25, 30, 35, 40, years etc you get the idea.

There are NO GUARANTEES for any of us.

I can tell you this ............................. knowing what I know and have learned over these last 30+ years, if I were still at an age to have children, a person in recovery from alcohol and/or drugs, would be my LAST choice as a father for my children, just because there ARE NO GUARANTEES.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

PS: yes I have called 911 when it looks like someone had OD'd or is about to strangle on their own vomit. Yes I call #384 (#DUI) when I am behind someone on the road that appears to be driving under the influence. Takes you direct to a 'special dispatch operator' much quicker than 911. Yes I have called CPS when I have seen children being abused. But is does not mean I have to take responsibility for those folks. I just have to do what I feel is my duty and then I let it go. Even if the person was someone I was I thought 'in love' with.

Or...you could be like me....

married the great guy with NO addiction history or issues. Fabulous husband for the first 20 years...then went to the doctor for shoulder pain...who prescribed Vicodin.

Shoulder pain went away after about a week...but 3 months later he got laid off and decided he liked the way Vicodin helped him deal with unemployment.

He is not in any physical pain. There is no medical need for him to take Vicodin. Yet the doctors keep prescribing it...and he keeps refilling it and taking it.....it's been 3 years now.

Just stating the obvious....you never know. You could do a great job of choosing...and the choice could change.

I thing the No Guarantee Policy on love and life is really why my thoughts don't drift into this questionable area very often.

Because we never know what we get in life. We can do all these things to make our lives just so; then something unexpected can happen to throw it all off.
We can pick a person in good health; they can get sick
We can pick a person free from drugs; then they can get hooked on pills after surgery.
We can pick the preachers son; because he looks good on paper but they are most always screwed up.
And on and on it goes.... There is no guarantee

(((Kelley))) - I totally agree with you. There ARE no guarantees in life. Yes, with an RA, there are still risks. I am one, almost 5 years clean, but got blindsided by the codie me the other night and I wanted to be NUMB!

Thank God, my first reaction when these thoughts occur (they have been rare, and usually related to major stuff going on in my life) was "just let me get to SR...I'll be okay.

I can't guarantee my recovery any more than I can guarantee I won't get lung cancer (I still smoke cigarettes). The best I can do is live every day to the fullest, and if things go south? I reach for help.

Hugs and prayers,

Amy

Best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.

Best is not an absolute. People can and do change. Most don't.

This is not about judging other people. It has all to do with our own boundaries. Milage varies.

((AMY))

I want to thank you for the heartfelt honesty that you always give to your posts; I know sometimes it must be difficult to be so open about your experiences. *But know that your thoughts and views have helped so many here on SR. *From the beginning of my time here; I've always respected and appreciated your words.*

Sometimes I think about things too much; but I'm always trying to think ahead....trying to sort it out before it happens

I don't look at my BF and see a recovering addict; I just see the whole of who he is .... Part of that includes the disease of addiction.*

In my mind however; we all have our issues. None of us are flawless, we are all impurrfect.*

But honestly lots of times the people who have at one point struggled the most; they are the ones that end up the strongest and most well rounded.

In regards to addiction; just think about what it takes to really persevere... Self control, tenacity, grit. *(By the way Amy; YOU have those) !!

So maybe those characteristics get passed on to their children. ?*

Did u ever hear of the marshmallow test?

You take a little kid put a single marshmallow on a plate - tell child he can eat this marshmallow or wait 15 minutes and have 2 marshmallows.*

They found the child that can wait; shows more self control, is better at disciplining himself, avoids addiction, does better in school etc.*

Hmmm... Maybe I'll try that test with BF ....I think he would have passed it at 5, curious at 32 if he could still pull it off? *Probably a marshmallow won't work either; but I think a Tootsie Roll might.*

Big Hug sent your way!
Stay in the Light
Kel

Ok so for anyone following my crazy antics.... Yes I know I'm like Lucy Ricardo.....And this is rather off topic now..... But I found it rather interesting so..... I have performed 'the marshmallow test ' on BF

Last night I was making cupcakes. So he was asking when they might actually be done and he might eat one, so I placed an unfrosted cupcake before him and said he could eat it, or wait 10 minutes and I'd have a frosted one for him.

So I go back 11 minutes later and the cupcake is still there. He waited.
And just to clarify while cupcake had no frosting it did have raspberry filling inside....so it was tempting.
But then upon arrival of the frosted cupcake he asks 'where are the sprinkles?'
This goes beyond the results of the original marshmallow test, so Ive no idea what this means - except possibly I spoil him.

I know .... Worthless info.... But at least he has some self restraint

Self restraint against food and self restraint against drugs are in two totally different ballparks in my opinion. The temptation of drugs will forever be stronger than the temptation of a raspberry-filled cupcake...

P.S. - Mind sending me one of those? :)