Alcoholism and Physical Revulsion in Marriage (mild adult content)
 

Hi,

I am an alcoholic, with 4 months of recovery in AA under my belt with a conviction to stay true to my new path, one day at a time.

After a 20 year marriage, my wife finally made the right decision to leave. It was the best decision for both of us, and what humbled me, and prompted the surrender I needed to seek help.

The last 4 months have been amazing, and my separated wife marvels at the change in me. I brought up the possibility of reconciliation, and her response was this:

"You are now the whole package, you check all of the boxes. If I met you on a dating site I would fall head over heels. But you have starved me of the emotional intimacy I craved for years, and I began feeling like your prostitute, rather than your wife. The thought of ever being physically intimate with you again makes me feel sick, I don't know if and when I might be able to feel differently. If and when that happens, I might consider reconciliation, but I don't know if that is months, years, or never."

Do any spouses on this forum have a similar experience with this feeling, and how did they deal with it? I do not want to pressure my wife in any way, but I would like to understand this as much as I can.

For myself, I am doing my best to focus on my own recovery, detach from the marriage as much as I can, and hope and allow her to find her own path to happiness, even if that is without me.

Thanks everyone,

M180

Yes, I understand what she is saying but I don't know if I can give you a path. My husband does not know how to have a relationship. He doesn't know how to show up as a friend. He doesn't know how to just be there because I need it.

He doesn't know how to support me. Just because it's my desire. He doesn't know how to sit on a couch together and just watch a movie. He doesn't know how to express enjoying just watching me laugh even if he doesn't get the punchline. He can't see me as needing what I need and being available for me. To offer time or an ear. Those things are need to develop trust, an emotional openness, before the adult things can happen.

I can't speak for your wife, but I feel the same way and I know it will never come back for me, even if my AH sought treatment. It's also about loss of respect

I'm glad she is being honest with you, and I hope things work out the best for you both. Congrats on your 4 months

Hi, 180Man.
Welcome to SR.
Sometimes there’s just too much damage done in a marriage by the alcohol addicted partner to overcome.
But...where there is life, there is hope.
Work your program, stay sober, and be open to what the future may bring.
Who knows?

The hope that I hold on to has to do with the fact that she sees positive change in all other aspects - I am attentive, emotionally present, taking over responsibilities for all chores, and am supportive. I am hoping that the rebuilding of trust that comes with consistently of action and sustained sobriety might help with this physical roadblock, but that is only something that time can answer. Any other insights would be appreciated!

Thanks,

M180

Although the individual nuances of every situation can vary, I can very much identify with your wife's words.

In my experience, my XAH had no ability to foster emotional intimacy, and that led to a very selfish physical intimacy, one in which my needs and desires were not respected or addressed. I felt like an object, a receptacle, and not much more than that.

I tolerated it because I didn't know any better and my self worth was in the gutter.

It would take a fundamental, monumental change for him to ever be what I need and deserve. Fortunately, he found a better enabler, so I am free to seek the life I now know I deserve. He has no desire to change.

Yes, I felt and feel this way. And it's a big part of why I said no to the possibility of reconciliation in my own marriage. In my case, it was also combined with considerable fear of my alcoholic spouse due to his behavior and verbal abuse while drinking.

I would take your estranged wife's statement to heart - she is expressing something that runs very deep here and there is no way of knowing if she'll ever feel differently - whether the two of you decide to wait and find out is of course up to you.

For me, I can't be with someone who has looked into my face with contempt ever again. That's a boundary I have set for myself and it precludes reconciliation with my alcoholic.

I have an insight, take it or leave it - you seem to be a little too focused on the hope that your relationship will heal. I have had better success hoping and working for change in myself and letting go of and accepting my ex for who he is and not holding onto any expectations or hopes where he is concerned.

4 months is great, but in terms of healing the damage done over 20 years? It's a minute. It's a commercial break.

I was with my alcoholic for over 8 years. He was an alcoholic the entire time but I was in denial for the first 6 years (and married him while in denial). The damage that he did and that I did to myself over that time is immeasurable. I've been entirely focused on healing myself for half a year (and left 2 months ago) and still feel like I have so far to go.

For me, I don't believe there will ever be space in my life for an addict again - not in a relationship of any significance. It's too big a risk.

I am in the midst of figuring things out with my AH and currently separated. But, I am beginning to understand that this is how I feel.

My AH is unable to put me first; really the bottle has always come first. And, if it isn't the bottle, then its people who support him so he can drink (parents and friends). Through the years, I've developed a lot of anger and resentment ... and understandably cannot afford to allow myself to be close to someone who I have learned the hard way is more than capable of throwing me under the bus and telling me its my fault.

My H is great with the kids (he's really just a big kid) and does household chores. What he doesn't seem to understand is that those things are not important to me. I don't need a babysitter and a housekeeper. I need a husband - which is someone I can trust, who puts me first, who puts our relationship first, who can be trusted to take care of himself. Someone who has shown, repeatedly, through his actions (not words) that he is what he says he is - and is able to respect me, my opinion, and my needs.

That isn't the case in my M ... and hasn't been for many, many, many years. Even if he stops drinking and even if he changes the behavior that encourages him to drink (this is what I do not think will happen) .... even if ... I am not sure I can ever really trust him again.

If I'm being honest ... I am not sure I should trust him. And, without trust, the rest of it will never be what it should be.

I am not sure this helps? But, this is where I am at.

Congrats on your recovery!

My ex expected sex. Wanted what he wanted when he wanted it, even if he couldn't actually perform the act. He would rage for hours if I turned him down.

I'm not trying to say that your behavior was anywhere near that extreme, but I still get the sense that you maybe kind of expect physical intimacy from her in return for all your growth.

Good work on your sobriety, but you were drinking for a lot longer than you've been sober at this point. Your wife suffered years of degradation. Give her space, don't bring up sex when you spend time with her. You've got her answer- for now. It may not be forever, but continuing the conversation at this point would probably do more harm than good. Even if you don't mean to pressure her, she might feel that way.

I wasn't married to an alcoholic, but I was raised by someone who physically abused me.

Although there were many moments of love in that relationship, they were interspersed with moments of rage in all flavors, calculated, uncontrolled, seething. You name it - she had it.

The moments of peace greatly outnumbered the moments of rage - but the anxiety and fear that underscored that peace was something I could not forget. I can most likely tolerate a friendly conversation with her, but the feeling of nausea and anxiety would make that conversation very short.

She was always confused by this - she thought that I could forgive her. I COULD, but she had to be no longer in my presence in order for this to happen. "Was it really that bad?" "I was worse to your sister." The more she asked these questions, the more my heart turned cold. I couldn't deal with her version of the Spanish Inquisition. I know she wanted very badly to heal our relationship (the cynical part of me also things that this was very much image management) but I wanted to save myself more.

If you love your wife, and I suspect that you very much do, I would let her go at this moment in time. The memories are just too fresh for her. It has been years, DECADES after my own abuse, but I still remember her rages as if it was yesterday. I also now remember her questions, and that has shut down my heart.

I often use this example and I'll use it today. If someone stabbed a doctor in a rage, only to ask that same doctor to treat him a moment later, that would be an utterly unrealistic expectation. If I was that doctor's supervisor I would emphatically insist that the patient be treated by someone else even if the doctor swore up down and sideways that he/she could handle it.

You want to turn to your wife in solace, and that's a perfectly normal expectation to have. Unfortunately, right now it's an unrealistic request.

I wish you strength in the times ahead.

Thanks to all for sharing your viewpoints, this is insightful. I've come to the conclusion over the past few days that my only path forward, regardless of the possibility of reconciliation, is to let her go and focus on myself. This was hard at first, but getting easier each day.

At this point I am just trying to find out all I can about the harm that I caused from the absence of emotional intimacy. I know I should put it to rest in my mind, but I can't help but wonder whether there is a hope for us in the future, whether near or far. Maybe that is something I need to let go of as well.

Thanks again all, any further thoughts are very much welcome.

M180

180Man......I am a bit confused....you say that your wife has left, after 20years...
I would take that to mean that she is out of the house....If so, how is it that you are taking responsibility for all the chores....(where?).....

The issue that you bring up has been discussed a lot, on this forum. It seems that a characteristic of a lot of alcoholics is that they desire immediate gratification...they want what they want...when they want it. And, many men seem to think that sex makes everything "better", again.....like sex is the "proof" that everything is o.k.
It doesn't seem to work that way, with most women....If things are not o.k....then, they are not o.k. To women...sex is not necessarily proof of love. Emotional intimacy, for most, preceeds desire for physical intimacy...To men...they often see sex as the intimacy, itself....

4months simply does not stack up against years and years of erosion of emotional connections. Erosion of trust is very detrimental to any relationship. Women do not enjoy sex with someone that they cannot trust.
Trust isn't just a decision...one cannot just flip a switch and suddenly--- "Now, I trust you". Trust has to be earned by doing trustworthy behavior...over a period of time...and, not just a short time, either....
There is no gurantee that trust ever returns to the original level of trust....that can be very scenario dependent....
Recovery entails a change in the alcoholic thinking...leading to a change in attitudes and, then, translated into changed behaviors. This is not done overnight...or 4 months, even.....it can take 1-2-3 years for such a pivotal change to show up....to a level where another person can trust it...

The one thing about recovery(for the alcoholic) is that it allows the person to be available to face life on life's terms...to face the realities of life.
Certainly, we cannot know the future of your marriage....there are so many factors...
Some marriages can be rebuilt...and, others, it seems--there has just been too much water under the bridge and too much damage done.....

One thing I can say for sure...that we cannot control another persons feelings....
We can only control our own....

I lost physical attraction to my beautiful(on the outside),blonde 'dream girl' of 10+years after I got sober. She literally became more repulsive with every drunken word(and I'm a drunk in recovery). She became just a 'nasty person' in all aspects of life to me. There's NO amount of recovery she could ever do to get me back to that place relationship wise. That's me..

180Man - my RAH of 18yrs is so much more attractive to me as a sober person than he was while using. Unfortunately, he’s only about 49 days sober and we have separated, long story. But as a woman we crave more than physical intimacy typically. Emotional intimacy like trust are important to us. Continue being kind to her, listen to her if she will engage. Eventually she will learn to trust you again. These things take time though, she’s been through a lot and is probably very afraid to revisit the life she remembered with you. Let her get to know the new you and don’t rush anything, you may be surprised. Best of luck and congrats on your sobriety! No easy feat ����

180, she has 20 years of anger and now the pressure's off it's going to surface. You're very new to your recovery journey (recovered A here) and she's not going to count on it sticking until you have much more time sober.

There's also the aspect that she had to leave before you got serious, when you had 20 years to make that decision and save your marriage.

Her words make me think there's no going back, but time is a healer. Concentrate on sobriety for your own sake, and enjoy the benefits it brings without false hopes about your marriage.

Yes, I agree with others that her words are indicating there is no going back.
You should continue on your journey and let her continue in hers.
My AH is sober 2 months and we have been married almost 19 years. Like your wife, I cannot imagine being physically intimate with him at this point or maybe even ever again.
The hurt runs very deep and I am working on myself and cannot imagine letting myself open up to emotional or physical intimacy with him ever again because for me trust is the foundation of a relationship (any relationship) and I simply have lost any trust I ever had for him and I truly do not believe I will ever trust him again.
I am very happy for him and his sobriety but at this point view it as his journey and I don’t want a whole lot to do with it.
I deserve better than what I have gotten these last 10 or so years and it shouldn’t be so much work or take me to ask him to respect me, as his wife, as a woman, or quite simply as a human being.
It may be too late (sorry to say) but please continue in your sober journey - congratulations.

I doubt you will be able to undo 20 years worth of whatever your alcoholism brought to your marriage. If my XAH turned up here sober, on a white horse, pulling a golden carriage with a billion dollars and the keys to a palace, I still wouldn't go back there.

From your first post, it sounds to me like your wife has told you a hard truth as gently as she could. Believe her until she shows you otherwise, and that will more than likely be never...

What your wife said reminded me of Pretty Woman. I will do everything but I will not kiss you on the mouth. A prostitute does not want to get close to her client. She wants to do her duty/act and make her money. She does not want to get too attached because she wants a roof over her head, she wants to have food, and she wants money to spend on shopping.

On a personal level with my own husband, it was not easy to French kiss my husband because his mouth tasted like alcohol. As he got deeper in the alcoholism, I just became invisible because one moment he was someone I could really love and the next moment he relapsed and it broke my heart.

It is like being in a relationship where both people have one foot in and one foot out.

Your wife is telling you that she felt invisible. She needs space. If you really love her, let her go and if it is really meant to be it will work out.

My husband has been sober for five years. We were not intimate for most of those years. He needed to work on his sobriety. He needed to gain back trust from all of us after his 2nd DUI. He needed to be able to keep a job.

We are also not the same couple we were when we were first dating. We are not going out to bars or Irish pubs. We are not going to a casino.

We watch Disney movies with our two young kids. We like to garden. We like smoothies. We have both changed.

Congratulations on your sobriety. Take one day at a time.

Wow this hits so close to home, I'm actually glad you posted this because I have been struggling with this so much. My H went to rehab 15 months ago after I finally gave him an ultimatum. After the big secret was out (his drinking problem) in the open I felt liée all of a sudden I could be honest with myself and I no longer wanted to be touched by him. And sadly after 15 months I still feel the same. I don't know that that will ever come back. We have been together for almost 16 years and our intimate relationship has not bren good for a long time in my opinion but just went along with it because that's what wives are supposed to do. Seeing what other have replied here actually helps me feel a little less like a jerk. My H is doing great and I should be grateful that he has been successful in his recovery and has changed a lot for the better I will admit. But between the huge lack of communication the last few years and just feeling emotionally distant and then finally completely detaching I can't help but feel the way I do. And I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one because I really felt like I was the only one that felt this way after their H was successful in his recovery. Like I'm the abnormal one now. We still sleep in the same bed but with a pillow between us. I cringe whenever he touches me even if it is in a totally non sexual way. It's been 1.5 years and he is hanging in there hoping things will change. I just don't feel very optimistic to be honest. He is not a bad guy, has never physically abused me and has changed but I agree with PP, it doesn't erase the past and there's no guarantee that i will recover from that despite his best intentions. Our marriage counselor ke ps saying how we are both new people and to look at this as an arranged marriage. Well that's all well and good but arranged marriages don't have the years of alcoholism behind them and they grew up that that's how they would get married. Plus one of my friends' husband has a lot of arranged marriages in the family and most of them are not happy at all so there is that.

M180, congrats on being 4 months sober and your resolve to stay clean. It's a great start but like PP said, it is only 4 months. You're gonna have to prove to your wife that this is the real thing and that is gonna take time no matter how much you tell her you're gonna stay sober this time, we e all heard it before and been disappointed, likely more than once. I understand it is probably a hard pill to swallow for you but 20 years of feeling being second to the bottle take a toll on people. I never really realized how much of a toll until after he went to rehab and I started working on myself. I never allowed myself to really feel. That goes further back than this marriage but it certainly made it much worse the last few years. And they always say, your feeling are your feeling and people can't get mad about how you feel. And that's true but it doesn't make it a lot easier with this specific struggle. I feel like I should get over myself especially since he has stuck around. That whole guilt thing. Then again it has only been a year..,.

Im not sure if I can help. I believe in marriage. I believe in fighting tooth and nail for it when two people love each other. My husband just quit drinking two weeks ago, and I am so proud of him. I'm still here, trying to figure things out. I applaud your wife for telling you exactly how she feels and why she feels that way. She is telling you there is a lot of hurt, resentment and anger built up over the years. That she has felt like just a body when it comes to that part of your relationship. I can see where shes coming from. True, you have to focus on your sobriety. But there is room for your wife too, and you are doing a good job of showing her you are serious. If you look at your sobriety and marriage like it has to be one or the other, that is all wrong. The best thing you can do is keep getting the help you need to be sober, show her you can do it, and you will do it, and you are succeeding. Dont give up on your sobriety or your marriage. And if I were you, I wouldn't mention the sexual part of your relationship to her again. That could just make her feel like you don't care about what she just told you (that's how I would take it anyway). Keep showing her that you love her, and maybe it will come back. Its worth the effort I'm sure.

"You are now the whole package, you check all of the boxes. If I met you on a dating site I would fall head over heels. But you have starved me of the emotional intimacy I craved for years, and I began feeling like your prostitute, rather than your wife. The thought of ever being physically intimate with you again makes me feel sick, I don't know if and when I might be able to feel differently. If and when that happens, I might consider reconciliation, but I don't know if that is months, years, or never."

That above is clear. She has told you in the nicest way she can she is done with your marriage. Whatever happened during the 20 years cannot be undone for her and it can't for most of us who have lived with active acoholics for years. It may seem unfair to you but your sobriety has come too late for your marriage. Time to move on and concentrate on being sober and living the best life you can and let her do the same. Hoping for anything else is denial of the situation. I say this from experience. My exah still harbours fantasies of us getting back together 3 years post divorce. It is never happening. Not ever. I would not put my hand in the fire twice and there is nothing left between us to save. He's not helping himself by refusing to move on and it's got annoying to me that the subject keeps getting raised when he remembers I exist. I could have said word for word what your wife said to you to my exah. We were married 20 years too. Focus on yourself and see what life brings next.

Remember too that it took them threatening to leave for you to take it seriously and seek help. When it was a problem for them for years and years, you wouldn't get help but as soon as the marriage might end and it is a negative thing for you all of the sudden, you are willing to do the work they asked you to do a long time ago. We alcoholics don't stop being selfish the second we seek help. Many times we even seek help for selfish reasons and this fact is often not lost on our spouses who are at their wit's end with us.

The ugly truth is that you didn't care about your spouse's needs until it started to impact your own. Until you are at a place to be able to understand this and be honest about it, you are not ready to be a good partner yet. And I am not lecturing here but speaking from experience. You are still thinking about this from the perspective of what you want and need. What she needs now is time apart and space to regain her sense of worth and self esteem. You can't violate someone's trust for years and years and expect them to open right back up when you decide it's time. That isn't how it works.

I hope this isn't coming off as harsh. It is a sad situation for both of you, but right now you are the one who needs to be patient and selfless. It was your turn for all of your drinking years. Now it's her turn to put herself first.

yes!
:thanks

I wrote a long, long post... and then SR "ate" it. I'll try to be short.

1) I agree with what a lot of people said here. Puzzheart, Glenl, Dandelion... .
2) My spouse and I were together for slightly over a decade. Over time his dishonesty, abuse, manipulation, and general slovenliness eroded the trust and emotional intimacy in our relationship.
3) I'll probably write a response in greater detail tomorrow. I'm tried. I just want to mention PAWS -- post acute withdrawal syndrome. This kicks in a few hours to a year after stopping drugs/drink. It has symptoms... among them are depression. The reason it happens is because drugs/drink messes with the dopamine in your brain. Your brain gets damaged by addiction. So after you stop, your brain still seeks a dopamine high. One of the ways dopamine if produced is by having sex. [Stop me if any of this is medically inaccurate... I did say I am writing this tired]. If you are struggling with your feelings, do not hesitate to see an addiction specialist doctor or psychiatrist because they can prescribe anti-depressants.
4) If my ex spouse showed up after 4 months sobriety (good work, by the way, keep going, I hope this is the start of a lifetime of health for you)... if he showed up after 4 months and wanted a relationship reboot plus sex, I would feel like he was trying to smoke/drink/snort/inject me. I'm the new drug. I'm the syringe. I'm the bong. I'm the bottle. I'm... you get it? I would feel like he was trying to use me all over again. I have already given him everything, despite him being abusive. I am emotionally, physically, financially depleted from the relationship. I have nothing else to give him, I don't even have enough for myself.
5) Now, I'm not saying that number 4 (above) necessarily applies to you. It might, it might not... but 4 months is short. Life is long. The damage to relationships after 10, 20 years of addiction does not get rectified in 4 months.
6) Put yourself in your spouse's shoes. Imagine someone else did all the things you did to her to you. Now imagine how you feel about them. If you don't remember all the things you did to her, have a read around the forum. Even if you think you remember it all, remember that your brain was affected and have a read around the forum anyway. The effect of addiction on family members is horrendous. Addictions destroys families. It's like an atom bomb. If an A bomb goes off, you don't walk back there and expect to go apple picking after 4 months. It takes time for the land to recover.
7) Trust has to be earned. If you are willing to do the work, I would start with offering friendship. But 4 months is nothing if not a start. So I would try to work on you first while she works on herself. Good luck!

Thanks for all of the replies, these perspectives are exactly what I was hoping for. Not that it makes a big difference to the situation, but I am the type of alcoholic who drank moderately (six pack of beer) every day (more on weekends), but withdrew from the family more and more over the years so I could enjoy my addiction alone. The harm I caused the family was directly related to the growing neglect, as well as the arguments arising around my denial and attempts to shift blame (protect my alcohol consumption at all costs).

I have tried to quit drinking several times in the past. I tried Naltrexone, and it worked a wonder, and cured me of my cravings to drink completely. It only took one night after about a year of sobriety for my cousin and close friend to pressure me in 'drinking for just one night' and anyone who knows an addict knows how that turns out. Given all of my attempts to quit drinking over the years, I can only assume that even with the new promising start I have my wife has every reason to be skeptical that it will stick. I also know that my issues with alcoholism extend far beyond the amount of alcohol I drank, but the way I think and view others around me (actively aware and working on this).

My wife also said this to me recently when I asked her for the sake of our marriage would she be willing to work on the physical intimacy challenges she is having. She responded:

"I need the time and space for the wounded girl inside of me to sit with these feelings. I need to show her respect, and not try to force or fix the issue. For me, this is more important right now than trying to fix our marriage."

Given all of the harm I am taking personal responsibility for, I have not questioned her on this. I recognize that I need to provide her with the space and time to wrestle with this in her own way, without any interference or pressure from me.

I also told her the other day, when I found out that she was reconnecting with an old flame, that I was giving up hope in any future for our marriage. Strangely, she responded:

"Maybe it is best for you to give up hope, you need to focus on your recovery, but I am not ruling out a relationship with you in the future, I am just not ready now or for the foreseeable future."

I almost wish she had told me there was no hope so that I could move on. Regardless, someone at Al-Alon gave me the best advice I have received so far:

"You caused years of pain and suffering. Your best course of action is to be willing to sit and remain in the discomfort you are feeling now, and not try to avoid it. This will help make you the strongest person you can be."

That advice is what I am focusing on most of all.

Thanks again everyone, and I look forward to any further thoughts and insights, and the longer post you might find time to write, Ophelia.

Thanks again,

M180

Both of you have just committed to each other for 20 years of your life. It is honest thing to say that it is not healthy for either of you to be in a rebound relationship with anyone. It is her life. She deserves the chance to date other people and see if she can be happier with someone else.

Her actions (finalizing the divorce, getting into another relationship) rather than her words are going to be a better indicator. It is like she has one foot out and one foot possibly maybe in for the future.

I am 46 years old. The dating world scares the living crap out of me. With an old flame, maybe both of them are at a better place in the their life to make a relationship work. But, if this relationship did not work out in the past with her old flame, it is hard to know if it would work out again in the future.

Take care of yourself and your sobriety.

Except for your wife it may not be a rebound relationship. You checked out of the relationship by being an alcoholic who knows how many years ago...Your wife may have checked out the last time she begged for you to stop and felt ignored.

In my case, my marriage was over for me three years before my XAH believed me. It took him three years to realize I was serious and to leave. We were married for 22 years before he actually left.

M180,

This is the healthiest approach to your recovery and to have a healthy relationship with your estranged wife. She herself is in recovery from you. Let her find herself and get healthy. It took her years (I am assuming) to gather the strength to leave you to start your recovery journey. Stay the course and put your sobriety first because without it there is no hope of a future with or without your wife.

Take this time to love M180, find out what M180 has become and wants to do. You might find out that your estranged wife isn't the woman best for you. Be the most supportive ex you can be. Be kind and respectful to her because she deserves it not because you want her back. (it will shorten your 4th and 9th step also). Let life happen and develop the way it does. What you've done in the past is done and sometimes the damage can't be repaired.

Good luck M180, your posts sound like you have gotten a good foundation to your sobriety. Keep building on it and life will work out the way it's supposed to happen. That usually is much different than we want it to happen.

OpheliaKatz, thank you so much for this. This helps me more than I can say.