Drunk ex sends kid texts about how awful I am
 

Hello,

I feel like I'm starting a lot of threads right now, and I appreciate the patience of everyone who reads them. If I'm over-starting threads, please someone let me know and I'll back off.

Last night I did something that I am not proud of. Kid went to bed but left her phone charging in the kitchen (Kid is 11, we have a no-phones-in-bedroom rule). For some reason, it didn't turn off so her text messages were displayed (I don't have her password). So of course I read the ones from her father.

Maybe that was a bad choice. In recent messages, her father refers to me as "your a---hole mom". He tells her to "work on me" to get me to let her spend more time with him (this is Drunk-Driving Dad), and that he's going to "fight" me and "fix" me if I don't agree to let him have more time (whatever that means). He encourages her to refuse to go to church events with me - "your mom says there's a church supper on Friday so you can't come to my place. What would you prefer to do? I bet I know - you'd rather hang with Dad, right? Tell [a---hole mom]". He refers to me by first name throughout, when he's not referring to me as a---hole.

He warns her not to tell me about his 20something meth-addict girlfriend (who deserves a thread of her own), because he had promised me that he wouldn't introduce Kid to Meth Barbie, a promise I have in writing. It's clear however that Kid has been hanging out with Meth Barbie (who has lost custody of her own children), buying her gifts, etc. , encouraged by father ("[Meth Barbie] thinks you're really pretty and intelligent. You like her too, right?"].

In the overshare department, he tells her all about his marriage breakdown from ex-wife #2, including his assessment that she has "narcissistic personality disorder" and that her marriage to her previous husband broke up because she was so abusive. He tells her that hooking up with Meth Barbie while married to ex2 wasn't really cheating because he and Meth Barbie really love each other. There is no reason my kid needs to know any of this. Did I mention that she's only 11?

This makes me feel pretty sick. I've gone out of my way not to bad-mouth her father - the worst I've said is that he's made some "bad decisions" and that because of his drinking he doesn't always make choices that will keep her safe. I have certainly never referred to him as "your a---hole father" or encouraged her to tell him she doesn't want to spend time with him. I have absolutely never told her to keep secrets from him. My life is pretty much an open book.

I know I should not read other people's text messages (or maybe I deserve what I get if I do). My only defence is that she's a minor child and I'm worried about her.

I'd appreciate any advice, especially from people who were in the position my kid is in right now - where she has one alcoholic parent trying to undermine the relationship with the other. How does that affect children? How do they manage these loyalties? I have counselling lined up for her and am taking her to Alateen. I feel kind of sick for myself, and really bad for Kid.

Sasha, this is so inappropriate I'm at a loss for words right now. Screen shot EVERYTHING and add it to your journal of his behaviors. There is NO ONE IN THIS WORLD that would find this appropriate, in any way. This is emotional abuse & manipulation & it helps me understand why she's been so determined to defend him. This secret-keeping is damaging in SO many ways. I would be talking with my attorney about this & using it to secure custody/restrict visitation to the best of my ability.

.... no such thing..... ! :hug:

IMO, I'd change this immediately. DD12 knows that her phone is subject to inspection at ANY point in time & I am to always have the current password. It's not her right to have a phone, it's a luxury & it's for MY benefit, so that *I* can reach her. I regularly review messages & internet usage along with apps downloaded, etc.

Nope, but this is the major exception to the rule.... yes you SHOULD be reading DD11's texts. Whenever you feel there is a need for it, which obviously there is right now. :grouphug:

Your kid is 12.

Let the chips fall where the will. He is writing his own sentence.

If you remain consistent, honest, reasonable, logical and caring.... your child will see the difference and learn from it.

Don't trash him, don't assail, be honest and remain strong. If she needs to talk with you about what he's saying, it'll come out. Support him as her father in her eyes (he loves yo7nand he's not bad, he just needs to take steps for his own wellness)....

You can't control him, or her, only you and your responses and actions.

This is a time for you to be a rock of strength and support and consistency for your child. She may get confused, frustrated, even angry at you.

Stay the course, be honest and remind her you love her and her Dad isn't going away, but understand the circumstances your job as her mother is to keep her safeet above all.

I can't even reply to FreeOwl without saying something I'll regret.

So sad for this little girl. 11 is not a grownup.

With all due respect, it can be MORE damaging for a child to hear that their parent "really loves them when they act badly like this & we need to keep that in mind"...... because the REALITY is that loving parents don't abuse their 11-yr old DD's like this. REALITY is that the only thing he loves right now is his addiction. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY ACOA CHILDREN GROW UP MESSED UP AND CANNOT BREAK THE CYCLE.

We keep labelling ABUSE as LOVE and it's WRONG. We keep telling our children that they are obligated to love someone that abuses them. NO!

The way to "be a rock" for her DD is to set boundaries DD is too young to maintain on her own. THAT'S LOVE.

Sasha....this is not the same world that it used to be....before the explosion of social media......it is essential that parents closely monitor kids......

OMG.

First of all, she is 11. It is your DUTY to read her text messages. She needs that oversight in her life, she is very young.

I would be taking all of this to my attorney PRONTO, to see what can be done.

I would also be speaking to her. He is obviously a horrible person. What awful things to say to your child. My XAH has done things, but never spoken to my child like this. He has also said very negative things about me, but again, not like this. I did explain to my children that their father was hurt and felt I should not have kicked him out, but they knew my decision was the right one. I said that sometimes people take out their frustration because they cannot see past their own bitterness.

I wish I had better advise, but truly, I would be speaking to your attorney and see what the counselor says ASAP. If I remember correctly, her counseling apt is not for a bit. I would call and see if counselor could get in an emergency session.

Hugs to you. Post away, that is what this forum is for!

My perspective comes from my own experiences and from those with my own children and from a counselor who specializes in childhood trauma.

Children recognize they ARE part their parent. When we trash their parent, we are trashing THEM as well.

I don't advocate not being honest, and even saying "what your father is doing is ABUSE, it is NOT what a loving father does"....

But there is a difference between being honest about the behavior and trashing the person.

When alcoholism and addiction is involved, it is even moreso the case. From what the OP shared, the daughter loves the father and wants him in her life (as is normal with children even when they're abused!).... and from what the OP shared, the father is being manipulative and awful.

All I'm saying is - call out the manipulative and the awful. Paint it for exactly what it is. Be brutally honest about the danger, the hurtfulness, the inappropriateness and the reasons why her father is not healthy to be around for unsupervised lengths of time.

But also be careful to separate that from the PERSON who likely exists beneath that behavior of addiction. Be mindful that person is still a human, still her father.... and perhaps one day will be a healthy and positive part of her life.

Keep the high road for your daughter... she will learn and benefit and grow from it.

To be clear, I do not EVER trash my XAH, even when he deserves it a million times over. I don't believe in doing that. However, I am way past trying to smooth over his horrid behavior.

Best thing I have done is get my kids in counseling so they understand addicted, personality disordered behavior....from anyone, and how they can handle it.

However, this goes past what you can sweep under the rug, and hopefully the attorney and counselor can assist.

Thank all of you SO MUCH for this. I am meeting a lawyer tomorrow morning about moving ahead rapidly for sole custody. I have screenshots of everything. Thank you for the validation that I am not being a sleazeball for reading her texts. Privacy is important but safety is more important, and that's what I'm following here.

I've got her password now. I also want to talk to her about triangulation - how alcoholics create "you and me against the enemy" configurations - and that she does not have to keep secrets in these triangles. I've already told her that there is nothing going on in my life that she has to keep secret from her dad - she can tell him anything. She doesn't have a counselling app't for a couple of weeks because the counsellor she "clicks" with only works for our benefits provider two days a week, and I don't want her to start with someone completely new. However, I'll keep taking her to Alateen and I'll see if the youth pastor at our church (the same one her father wants her to say she doesn't want to go to) would be available to take her out for an ice cream or a tea sometime this week (the youth pastor does this pretty often - touching base with kids in difficult circs).

Thanks again. I am completely at a loss with this stuff. Ex is an ACOA and he is doing EXACTLY what his mother did to him - poisoning him against the other parent, demeaning the other parent and demanding that the child be a puppet repeating what he wants to hear.

Again, I really, really appreciate your responses. They reassure me that THIS IS NOT NORMAL AND NOT OKAY! You have no idea how much you are helping me, and I only hope I can pay it forward.

I don't know if this is appropriate, but...

take her phone and block his number on it. Can you do that?

She could still call him... I don't know you may need to check the technology of it.

Or, if these texts are pouring in when she's sleeping, delete those texts.

I would not let that garbage get to your daughter if you can prevent it. Schedules are worked out directly with you, correct?

Free - not one person has suggested trashing the father (in this or ANY of Sasha's recent threads) so I'm not sure why you even focus on that as a point? It's irrelevant, it's not happening in this case.

I have a son about the same age as your daughter. His cell phone is not allowed upstairs and the charger is downstairs. We can view his messages at any time, and we often talk about them. We also have his password (although we haven't played that card yet.)

We make it very clear that for him, a phone is a privilege and not a right. On occasion, we threaten to switch him to (gasp!) my old bar phone when he's particularly snarky. There's even a phone called The Light Phone that doesn't text. I'm sure he would LOVE that one.

What I'm trying to say is that given the circumstances, you have every right to monitor the communication between your daughter and her father. He's obviously not in his right mind. She may be annoyed. She certainly doesn't want to get him in trouble. But it's obvious he doesn't respect the relationship that she has with her mother, and that in itself is detrimental.

Absolutely this is not normal behavior Sasha! I wish I could give you better advise, but so much depends on the judges, attorneys, and court employees in your jurisdiction. It's ridiculous that we cannot protect our own children more efficiently. However, that's an entirely different topic.

Hugs to you. You are a good momma, don't let him wear you down on this. Be strong, and stay in her business, it's your job!

What everyone else said.

If you can possibly afford it, buy kid a new phone and do NOT give him the new number. There should be a way to back up the phone and put the other info on her new one. Give this phone to your lawyer--maybe he will send more messages in the meantime, but at least kiddo will not see them.

This borders on child abuse, and your lawyer should seek an immediate order prohibiting him from direct contact with your daughter. If he wants to talk with her it has to be by speakerphone so you can listen in.

I was just clarifying my point in response to your comments. It seemed to me like you were suggesting that I was suggesting that we should classify abuse as love.... which wasn't at all my point.

My point was simply doing the right thing for the daughter and the OP - while at the same time balancing that with the relationship between the father and daughter.

There can be a tendency to retaliate or to forget the delineation between the disease and the person.

I perhaps misread your comments.... but was just trying to clarify.

I get it. I know somewhere in XAH there's a person who loves his daughter and wants to be a good parent. Unfortunately, that person has left the building for the time being and we have a manipulative alcoholic who is using "love" to get compliance and allies against The Enemy, just like his own mother did.

I also don't believe it's a coincidence that all the people ex has fixated on as The Enemy, during his extensive career as an alcoholic, have been women: his mother; me; ex-wife #2; a senior female co-worker; the director of Kid's after-school program; one of her teachers; one of his friends' wives; one of my best friends, etc. This is way of proportion to the actual representation of women among the horrible people of the world. (Yet XAH comes across to many people as Mr Sensitive New Age Feminist Guy. It's only once you start seeing the patterns in people he hates that his woman problem become apparent). Once Kid becomes a woman (and no longer a cute kid), I'm worried about what will happen in his relationship with her. So I am trying to raise the strongest young woman I can under very difficult circumstances.

Kids are pretty smart. They'll figure him out pretty quickly. He is doing a huge favor by trying to trash you. As long as you stay stable and consistent and doing the right things by not trying to get him back...........they will come around.

My XAGF's kids had her figured out long before I did. And they were 12.

i would absolutely prevent any further communication. kid can hate me from now til she's 90, but that type of garbage is supremely unacceptable - and what is further damaging is this crap is coming from her father.

i think too it is appropriate to explain that her "father" is not of sound mind, and as such cannot be trusted at this time. i would NOT make any claims about how much daddy LOVES her - but i would make it clear that due to his damaged mental state he is not adequately able to BE an involved parent. and that none of this is her fault. that as her guardian you simply must take every step to keep her safe and protected at all times.

This^^

And speaking as an ACOA I can tell you that is IS labelling abuse as love when we are not properly calling it out as abuse to begin with.

It took me until I was nearly 40 to start to really understand how this stuff had damaged me all the way to my core & had created awful foundations in many (all?) of my adult relationships, so that's where MY perspective comes from. I continually accepted abusive acts as misguided "love" & made excuses for it as the water heated up degree by degree.

I feel for you Sasha, a friend of mine is going through something similar with her 14-yr old. No matter how upsetting her EXAH's behavior gets, DD defends & deflects & digs her heels in deeper because she "knows he loves her". She's been going to alateen (even regional conferences & camps) for a while but will not be swayed from being his #1 Cheerleader..... and at the same time she levels every bit of her anger & frustration at her mother. It's a very difficult situation.

There's another extremely good reason to monitor her texts...she's very vulnerable right now to a predator. She's confused, her father is trying to co-opt her by alienating her from you, and she's already not being honest with you ("I didn't realize he was drunk.")

Counseling for her ASAP, if she isn't already going. She's going to hate losing her phone privacy and he's going to make you the enemy even more. You'll need to stay strong and you'll need help with your daughter.

Sending you a hug.

I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as a "right to privacy" regarding phones, social media, etc when it comes to kids. My kids know that I can and will look at their phones at any time for any reason. It's not that I don't trust them, it's that I know what's potentially out there, and it's my job as their mom to make sure they know how to use these things responsibly and intervene if they are not.

With that said, I'm so sorry this is happening. What he's saying is completely horrible and inappropriate. I agree with the suggestion to get her a new phone number if you possibly can, or at the very least block the communication between your DD and her father. Make sure you have EVERYTHING documented for your lawyer.

I defended my alcoholic dad for a long time, I used to get upset thinking that he was all alone with no one to take care of him when we were at our mom's house. He was very manipulative, just like your ex.

I think I was scared of upsetting him because on some level I knew that his love was conditional, based on me being a compliant, perfect child. It was "safer" to take things out on my mom because she was pretty much always there.

I'm glad your daughter has you in her corner to protect her, even if she doesn't appreciate it now, you are definitely doing the right things. Be patient with yourself and with her.

OK I'm gonna just say this about the whole right to privacy thing. When you're dealing with a manipulative ConMan the last thing you need is lack of proof of their actions. My ex went to GREAT lengths to hide what was going on. And when they think you are on to them they use the whole right to privacy thing.

Look, if you're in a relationship with someone that includes living or finances or kids or work etc together, I'm sorry but I think there is a certain RIGHT TO KNOW aspect to them. My partner has a RIGHT TO KNOW where I am if I'm not at home and its 2AM. Or if I say I am supposed to do something and come up with an excuse as to why it didn't happen. You have a RIGHT to know what and who your minor child is doing or seeing. A RESPONSIBILITY I'd argue.

I knew my ex was up to something. However if you do things their way, you'll stay a mushroom forever. A mushroom is live in the dark and eat CRAP to live.

Left up to them, we would be a mushroom forever. If they have lost your trust by you becoming suspicious, I'm sorry but they need to be transparent in their actions to you before you can gain trust back.

I'm not suggesting that we have a right to pry into matters that don't include us. But all of this B/S they put us through....IS INCLUDING US.

Once I knew something was up, I placed tracking devices on my vehicles that she used. I had a web monitor that I installed that tracked online traffic over the home WI-FI. I looked at calls she made on phones that were on MY account. I don't regret doing any one of them!

Once they gave me all I needed to know, I was absolutely CERTAIN that I was no longer just suspicious. I was now CERTAIN. Once certain it is much much easier to make an orderly plan on how to end things.

I'm sorry if some of ya'll don't agree. But lots of us here become mushrooms because we are so worried that we will pry and get yelled at.

Stop being mushrooms.

As soon as I asked my XAGF who she was texting at 11:30 at night and 5AM. And she became enraged I could be so disrespectful to check on her actions......and then she LIED as to who those text were to. And she got busted. But it was all about me violating HER privacy. Never minds she was having an affair. That isn't what I was supposed to focus on.

Within a day she went out and got a new phone claiming it to be a "WORK PHONE". Another lie.

You get to do things more your way when you KNOW the truth...........no matter how you came by it.

I'm gonna vehemently disagree when it comes to adult partners. There are stalking laws and others that criminalize that sort of conduct. And the last thing any partner needs is to hand someone a basis for a criminal charge or protective order against them.

I agree that kids have no RIGHT to privacy--at least not absolute privacy.

I really appreciate the perspectives from people who are ACOAs (since that what Kid is going to be, unfortunately, through no choice of her own). I am trying to think about the long game - what can I do that can help equip her for the years to come, even if it makes her mad at me right now?

Alateen: check. Counsellor: check. Not worrying any more about spying on Kid's communications: check. Going to get in touch with youth pastor from church to ask if she can take Kid out for ice cream or tea sometime soon (no big pressure to talk, just friendly adult).

Trying to figure out how to talk to Kid about her father's issues without sounding like I'm trashing him, knowing that if she gets angry, the anger is going to land on me (because I'm the stable one whose love and presence is unconditional, so it's safe to get mad at me. Also knowing that at the moment AXH is probably a lot more "fun" than I am - he's got the cute new puppy, promises of endless screen time, buying Kid anything she wants, etc, as distinct from Mom, who's tired [because I also have a full-time-plus job in addition to this crap, while Dad's got endless free time as he's on disability] and who says things like "pick up the clothes on the floor" and "you need to eat some of your vegetables" and "no, that show's NC-17 so you can't watch it on Netflix").

Sasha, I'm going to recommend a book for you, called "When Dad Hurts Mom." It's another book by Lundy Bancroft (author of "Why Does He DO That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men"). The book is specifically aimed at helping kids recover from the effects of witnessing violence in their home, but a lot of the stuff that abusers do, in terms of trying to undermine the other parent and to use the children as pawns to continue the abuse, would appear to be relevant to what's going on in your situation.

I have a ton of respect for Bancroft, and I think the book might help you with ways to talk about what's going on.

My best suggestion is just giving her honesty & being prepared for it to be many, MANY conversations.... not just one. I've always found that DD needed time to think & marinate on the things we talked about, and that it always left her with more questions later. It was important that she understood I truly meant it when I said that I had an open door policy for her to ask anything. Sometimes the only answer I had was, "I need some time to think about that really great question you just asked..." and then I made sure I DID get back to her, and not just brush it off.

I had to remind her that me being honest meant that sometimes that answer really WAS "I don't know". Not because I'm trying to avoid, but because I was navigating new waters too & didn't always know the way myself. I could promise to come back to her when I had it more figured out, lol. I also showed her that I didn't always have my crap together in all of this either -that it took me off guard at times & it was normal for her to feel that way too.

We talk about addiction as a whole, not just related to RAH & alcohol. We talk about drugs, gambling, sex, food - any kind of numbing behavior that can be used to hide or filter emotions.... how on some level, we are ALL broken.

We talk as openly about recovery as we do addiction.... & how so many people are affected more than we can see on the surface - I can't tell you how many times DD has been able to be there for other kids at school or in a club when crisis occurs in their worlds, just by listening & letting them know that they aren't alone.

We watched a few episodes of Intervention together, ones that I had previewed & felt she could relate to her own situation.

I had to own my side of the street in all of this and explain how my own codie behaviors were often as bad if not worse than his addicted behaviors. I explained how hard it was for me as an adult to be un-learning all of this & trying to put better behaviors into practice in my relationships. I call myself out when I fumble on it & explain what I did "wrong" & how I was correcting it.

One of my favorite tricks has always been turning her questions around on her - what was your first thought when you saw x, y, z? How did it make you FEEL? Did your stomach roll, etc?

At this age, I've also shared MANY pics of DUI accidents & the details of injury & death that result from it. I do NOT take drinking & driving lightly.... I don't EVER want her to accept the possibility of getting into a car as "it'll be alright this one time" instead of knowing that "No is a complete sentence & the only reason I need".

We've talked about things like date rape drugs & how college girls are showing scary trends of binge drinking. In middle school DD is running into real-life examples of early drug & alcohol use every single day. It blows my mind that the school flips out if a kid has aspirin in their bag for headaches, but they can smuggle vodka-laced gummy bears in without raising a single eyebrow.

Sorry, that's just semantics to me. I think there's a big difference between having the RIGHT to the things you talk about vs. it being respectful to do so...... like I don't have the RIGHT to know where my husband is at 2 am even if it's obviously disrespectful for him not to be home and/or accounted for. I do not OWN him.

OK, I'm a retired prosecutor who trains on this stuff and please let me assure you that the fact that it's your own car or your home network is not a defense to surreptitiously following someone. There might be other factors that would affect the success of a prosecution, but the fact that you own the car or the network is by no means dispositive.