I know that it's not healthy to monitor the drinking. Trust me, I'm A LOT better about this now-a-days. I learned to stop this behavior through Al-Anon and reading about co-dependency. Granted, I'm not perfect with it. I still fall off of my wagon and check the trash bin for empties here & there. If I feel myself tuning into his behavior, I try to regain the focus onto myself by doing something I like to do. I'm getting better at this as time goes by.

No, I'm not actively participating in Al-Anon. I went for about 3 months or so. It helped a lot at first. They never talked about the steps. The conversations ended up being about the same thing each week. It began to feel like a broken record; just stuck on the same song and never moving forward.

I suggest you look around into other meetings then. Every group is a bit different, and there are plenty of them out there that concentrate on the solution, rather than the problem.

Seconding Lexie's suggestion. I've only ever been to one meeting that was outright BAD, and it wasn't a meeting so much as a lone person who clearly had some mental/emotional issues who was pretending to be a meeting...but certainly I've been to meetings that I found more and less helpful.

Here's a paraphrased version of what I posted on this topic in a different thread:

Find a meeting or meetings that seem to be a good fit for you. Try a few to see. The one closest to you or at the most convenient time isn't necessarily the best one for you.

Then go regularly. Read Alanon literature--tons of Alanon books are available used on Amazon for very reasonable prices. This will help get you jump-started on how the program works.

Truthfully, there can be just as much help found in conversations with an individual or two after the meeting while putting away chairs or at a coffee shop before or after the meeting as you'd find in the meeting itself.

The catch to Alanon is this: I have to do the work. An Alanon saying is "It works if you work it", meaning that the program works as well as the amount of effort that I put into it. If I get out for a run once a week and eat healthy twice a week, how much can I really complain if I don't lose any weight or feel any better? Same with Alanon--popping in to a speaker meeting once in a while or sitting quietly in a group that I attend once a month isn't going to do a lot for me.

I will confess that I never did go the full route and get a sponsor, but I did attend the same particular meetings as regularly as I could, given that I had jobs/schedules that changed often during those years. I read Alanon literature. I signed up to chair a meeting once in a while (awkward, nervous, but not going to kill me, right?). I signed up to be the person who picked a topic and gave the lead-off share. I volunteered once a month at the Alanon office. I shared at meetings if I felt I had something worthwhile to say, and I did my best to be brief and clear in that share. Otherwise I passed. I listened carefully to what was said by others.

The very first night I was alone after XAH moved out, someone I'd never met emailed me and said she was looking for someone to go to a meeting the next day and take a walk afterwards. I accepted and was glad I did--it was just what I needed.

On two occasions, to my great alarm, newbies called ME off the phone list they'd received and asked if I'd meet them for coffee before the meetings. Holy carpfish! Well, the saying from AA is "suit up and show up", so that's what I did, and I'd like to think I was of some use to these folks...

So what I'm saying here, in my not-so-subtle way, is that you gotta get involved if you want to reap the benefits. Just sitting in a meeting won't put me into recovery any more than sitting in my garage will make me into a car. It's an active program, not a passive "fix-me" thing.

If you give it a try from that angle, you might find you feel very different about it.

I hope you do find a different Alanon group and that you get active in it. I am not one of those folks who makes Alanon the center of her life, but I do know that I need to work for my recovery; it won't happen by osmosis.

Are you sure that it was an official Al-Anon group? At every meeting, the steps are read aloud. Every meeting features a different lead-off speaker each week. Most meetings follow a topic schedule and discussing the steps is in the topic schedule. In every meeting, each participant is given time to share. All of this provides quite a bit of opportunity for variety. There isn't conversation as we normally engage in it, but individuals sharing what is on their mind that week. If you were going to a meeting in which there was a repetitive group conversation week after week, perhaps it was not an affiliated Al-Anon group.

And as honeypig said, it's often the case that you'll need to try a few different meetings before you find one (or a few) that feels right. A big part of what feels right, as Lexicat says, is that the participants focus on themselves and solutions, not on alcoholics and problems. This reminder is also part of every Al-Anon meeting at the beginning.

Nothing is part of "EVERY" Al-Anon meeting. As with AA, group conscience determines the format and content of the meetings.

The Twelve Traditions of Al-Anon state:So the "primary purpose" in Tradition 5 is really the only restriction, along with not acting in a way that interferes with Al-Anon as a whole. If the group wants to use non-conference approved literature, it can. If it wants to have cross-talk, prayers, no prayers, it can.

Pays to take some time to find a group that is a good fit.

A lawyer to me means that I'm leaving and I'm not ready for that.

I wasn't ready and by the time I was I'd wasted 20 years of my life. I stayed out of fear of change and being alone. I love being alone now but I look back and have no good memories of those years at all. I could kick myself for not getting out sooner. Am too old to start again relationship wise and too young to be by myself for the rest of my life. I fell between two stools. I hope you manage it. You only have one precious life.

Yes, it was an official Al-Anon meeting. They did read the steps at the beginning of each meeting but as far as I was aware, that's the only thing that they did with regards to the steps. They also had some closing statements that they read too.

I guess I made it sound easy, sorry. It's a conscious effort to STOP the counting you likely have been obsessively doing. It's simply looking away. Not being next to the alcoholic and having no clue what number he's on, when he started, and going to bed long before he thinks of stopping for the night. Over time, becoming oblivious to anything other than the fact that the other person is drunk.

[QUOTE=hopeful4;6513268] Yes, you are exactly right. I do feel robbed of my life. You hit the nail on the head with this response. Thank you. It helps so much to know I'm not alone.

Ah, I stand corrected. I'll say, then, that any meeting allowing cross-talk, repetitive discussion about the alcoholic's behavior and discussion of non-AlAnon resources is not one that's conducted in the spirit of most AlAnon meetings. I champion AlAnon because its a solution oriented program that puts self reflection and personal responsibility front and center. To me, a good meeting isn't where you come together to bitch about problems or to tolerate a bad situation, it's one in which you can stop, reflect and find your love of life again.

Yes, I think you summed it up, FA. If an Alanon group is indeed wallowing in the problem and not searching for solutions, that's not a healthy or useful group, and the newcomer would do well to move on.

I'm also surprised to hear that Alanon allows the use of non-conference approved literature. I don't think that choice is allowed in my area, as I know of one group that chose the AA Big Book as their book study. Because of this, the local Alanon office refused to list that meeting in their directory, and the only way you could find out about it was to talk to someone who attended. I know this b/c I had called down there for info, not seeing it in the directory, and was told rather snootily that there was no such meeting, and if it used the AA Big Book, it wasn't an "Alanon" meeting.

We called it the "Rebel Meeting." I attended several times and it sure seemed like a good enough meeting. One cool thing they did that I had not seen before was that one of the last things they did before closing the meeting was to go around the circle and allow anyone who wished to, to ask for prayers/thoughts/wishes for anyone they chose. Then there was a moment of silent prayer/meditation. No "Alanon cheer", no Lord's Prayer (which is the ending of virtually every meeting in my area).

However, there was a meeting closer to me and at the same time that was equally good, so if I went to a meeting on that day at that time, I usually went to the other one.

Sounds like that was purely local prejudice, then, about what constitutes a legit Alanon meeting, from what you're saying, Lexie.

It may have been less about the use of non-conference-approved literature, hp, than about "primary purpose"--AA's Big Book is the AA program of recovery. So use of that program's BB might have just seemed too much of a deviation from "primary purpose." The local "governing" bodies are but trusted servants, chosen by the groups in the area, and they are the ones who make the call on stuff like this.

My point really was that it's largely up to each group how they run their meetings. There's actually an awful lot of variations, sometimes from one part of the country to another.

New and scared
 

Hi all

I'm new on here...I never dreamed I would be writing in a forum like this.....

I met my af when I was 22,he is a few years older than me and so I naively thought it was a sign of sophistication to be drinking a bottle of wine a night. The newness of the relationship caused me not to question it I guess.

I fell pregnant with our little boy a couple of years in. He is an amazingly devoted dad despite his issue with alcohol and our little boy worships him.

When our son was born he didn't wake up one night to feed him as he had promised me. Unbeknown to me he had started drinking when I went to bed. It was a wake up call and he then became t-total for 6 years.

However last year he wanted to celebrate my birthday with me and decided he was going to have a drink. I begged him not to. Told him he would not be able to resist more if he started again but he was certain he was a changed person.

I sit here one year down the line. He now drinks about 2 bottles of wine a night. Last night it was a bottle of wine and a bottle of vodka. I woke up to a bathroom full of sick.

He has on many occasions said he will stop altogether, or only drink at the weekends but every time he goes back on this. I've now told him it's over and he does not seem bothered. He blames me for his drinking I make him miserable with my judgmental ways.

He has plunged us into loads of debt and I figure I need at least 6 months to get finances straight before I can actually get out of here....I just can't believe he chose the drink and not me. And he chose the drink and not our little family. My poor little boy. I'll never forgive him for this......

Hi, Commy,

Sorry you're having to deal with this. Just know that it isn't totally a matter of "choice" when it comes to alcoholism. I'm not justifying or excusing his irresponsible behavior, but when it comes to actual drinking, alcoholics lose the power to choose not to drink. And it generally takes some pretty big losses for them to accept that their messed-up lives are due to the alcohol--that their lives have become unmanageable--and that living sober is the only answer.

Have you consulted with a lawyer? Apparently you aren't married, but a family law attorney can advise you on how to get your financial lives separated. He will be responsible for paying child support no matter what. You will also want a custody/visitation order. Without that, depending on the law where you live, he will most likely have equal rights to custody and if he decided to simply take your son it might be a daunting process to get him back. Do you own or rent your home? In whose name(s) is the lease/deed?

Oh, and if you aren't already going to Al-Anon, I HIGHLY recommend it. It was a complete lifeline for me when I was in the process of leaving my second husband. Some groups have childcare and some would allow you to bring your son as long as he isn't disruptive (you could take him outside if he got restless).

Saturday was the "usual" when it comes to my AH. I had a good weekend though. It was nice & quiet; worked on some things around the house. I purged my closet of clothes. Have you ever came across something in your closet and said to yourself "What the hell was I thinking?!" LOL.

After dinner on Saturday, my AH wanted to go for some ice cream. Yum. I value my life, btw. However, he proceeded in thinking he was going to drive. Uh, NO. Hell NO. Again, I value my life as well as others. All I have to say is "What the Hell?!" He pouted for 10 minutes. I drove, we both got ice cream, and he stopped pouting once he got the ice cream.

Have you ever came across something in your closet and said to yourself "What the hell was I thinking?!" LOL.

we can take that approach with the PEOPLE in our lives as well!!!

Hi Flower! It sounds like our weekends were similar. Man, I dread Fridays anymore. It's sad that my closest friends now know when I say it's a "usual" weekend it means it involved my AH binge drinking all night Friday and all day Saturday. My AH also thinks he's ok to drive when he's been drinking and I have taken the keys and driven to avoid having him drive drunk. I've thought before though, is this enabling behavior? Or is it just keeping myself and others safe?

Hello all-I don't think I've been on here for a while now. I get email updates and sometimes check out threads through that, but I'm having a hard time. I've been thinking about the train that I'm on. You know, the Crazy Train. Things happen and I just think "WTF?! Am I in a real life right now? Is this truly happening?".

I'm just going to think out loud here-Just let my words fall out.

My AH is still at it, of course. I never really thought that he would improve. I just honestly think that I maybe slowed the situation down a bit. Can I call it a situation? What do you call it? A nightmare? The twilight zone? I'm a little sleep deprived from spending an evening at the hospital. This wasn't a result of his drinking but I do think that the other medical issues do stem from the alcohol. Things pop up all the time; there seems to be a constant stream of complaints about aches and pains. I'm to the point where I think mental illness is becoming more apparent. Is alcoholism a form of mental illness?

Does alcoholism cause other mental illnesses? Such as the need for perfectionism, or OCD, or hypochondriac? Depression? All of these enter my mind after seeing the things and hearing the things that I do.

My AH has also has ventured into the world of verbal abuse. He doesn't call me names or anything. I'm waiting for that to happen. I just remove myself from the situation. He'll apologize, even perhaps play the victim a bit. Then does it again. He apologizes. Repeat. The apologies really mean nothing to me at this point anymore. He seems to be losing his self-control (his filter?). I experienced this last night while we were at the urgent care (which turned into an ER trip). He accused me of not caring. He had a stone cold angry look on his face while I was sitting with him in the medical room. I got a glimpse of the angry man that I think he's become. The outbursts are becoming more frequent. The Crazy Train is going faster. Have I gotten a little immune of the "medical" situations and even a little numb to the irrational outbursts? Yes, I think so. I feel that he sometimes looks for attention and validation. He's the victim, it seems. I've learned to take the emotion out of it to try to protect myself a bit. I'm trying not to absorb this craziness and he can see that. But he doesn't understand it because it doesn't serve his purpose.

I hate that I'm angry. I still look at his alcohol level on the bottle. I try not to because I know that it serves no purpose. But it makes me angry that he's doing a good job of secret drinking. It's not really a secret because he can't hide the monster that he becomes. "Monster" might be too strong of a word. I just can tell. The vacant, unfocused look on his face says it all. I think he's drinking in the morning on the weekends now too. There are days, usually Sundays, that he's drunk but I never actually see the drink. I'm convinced that he's just chugging straight from the bottle when I'm out of the room or off doing something. Again, it makes no matter how so I just struggle with WHY I do that. It only makes me angry and disappointed. I always want to have hope though. I'm just hoping that he'll magically wake up one day and STOP. LOL. That's crazy talk because I know that'll never happen.

I have my own issues. My anger. My disappointment. I'm an emotional eater and need to lose weight (about 30 lbs). I can't really talk to him. I avoid talking to him and I don't share things with him intentionally. I've told white lies to avoid conflicts. I walk on eggshells with him. I don't think he copes well and he actually causes drama which makes things worse. I'm, however, conflict avoidant. This is gotten better over time.

He's needy and has become more clingy. I'm suffocating, yet I'm lonely. We have the same talks over and over again. Yet, nothing changes. We don't know how to change, or even where to begin. I told him a few weeks ago that I didn't think we could do well together if we're not individually well. I'm not sure that we'll make it.

Well, that was a long post. If you're still sticking with it-thanks for reading.

Hi Flower, it's good to hear from you although I hate to hear things seem to be escalating into an even worse situation.

You are right, your protecting yourself emotionally will only enrage him more. I hope he does not ever become physically violent and that you have a future plan for what you may do if he does.

You do know that emotional abuse is a form of abuse. I know for myself that entitled me to free counseling through a womens domestic support/shelter place. I simply had to call, tell them the situation and they set it all up. There was no pressure but it was a big help during a time I really needed it. Abuse comes in all forms, and physical is only one of them, emotional is just as bad.

Sending you lots of support. Please take good care of yourself!

Escalating into a worse situation-Yes. I think the situation has changed, even gradually. Many times, I just think "Just get it over with already. Let's speed the inevitable up. " What is that going to be exactly and how long will it take for me to reach my break point? I wish I knew.

Yes, I'm aware that he's moved into the verbal/emotional abuse. It's hard to figure out what's a normal part of marriage. I don't want to be a person that doesn't forgive. Someone that doesn't forgive is someone that has allowed anger to rule their world and will always be looking backwards instead of forwards. I want it to work. I want to have hope.

I think all of those things you are experiencing, feeling and doing are normal in the circumstance of living with untreated alcoholism. Looking at the alcohol level on the bottle serves no purpose except it gives you something to do because you don’t know what else to do.

Al-anon helped me learn what else to do. Have you given any thought to some kind of recovery program for yourself?

And yes I do think alcoholism is a mental illness as is OCD, hypochondriac and of course depression.

Alcoholism is a progressive disease and you are witnessing that progression.

I think it's absolutely OK to be getting help for yourself while a the same time hanging on to that hope. His mouth says he is sorry, but his actions through repeating the same behavior over and over don't really say that.

I also hesitate to say what I think about alcoholism and mental illness. I see many people get stuck in their own lives because they want to brand this behavior mental illness then feel like they have no right to move forward. Just look at the behavior itself and decide if that is what you want to deal with as this does and will progress.

I think the same about the addict themselves. They many times want to brand it a mental illness so they have an excuse to continue. I think it needs to be that this is the behavior and I need help to stop these behaviors, whatever that may look like. The branding does no good. Just my opinion of course.

When I was nearing the end of the rope with my XAH, I went to a doctor, psychiatrist, and a counselor. I went to the doctor who referred me to the psychiatrist because I was in a bad place and needed some medication. I went to the counselor to have therapy to help ME become ok with me. To help me be as strong as I could be and support myself because no matter what was going to happen, I knew I had to be that strong to handle it. It helped me immensely as a person and I am so glad I went. I shifted that focus from my XAH onto myself and what I needed to be a whole, happy person.

The fine folks here at SR, paired with Celebrate Recovery meetings were also sources of my support during that time. I don't know what I would have done without it. Keep reaching out, you are not alone!

Sending lots of support!

I went to Al-anon for about 3 months a few years ago. It helped me at first. It's where I first learned about Co-Dependency. It definitely helped me to learn more about it and know that I wasn't alone or crazy. After a while, I felt like it was just helping me actually focus on it. I was tired of thinking about it and got tired of talking about it too. There are a few trusted people in my life that are aware of the situation. I'm sure that most people that interact with him have figured it out or sense that something is off at least, but I don't usually talk about my marital problems with very many people. However, I'd say that we've become a little isolated. It's sad once I actually put this stuff in words.

Our conflicts are getting more frequent. I've become increasingly concerned about his behaviors and things he says. He's suicidal at times. We talk about it and I try not to judge, and to just listen. But I encourage him to get counseling EVERY SINGLE TIME and nothing ever becomes of it. The next day, it's like it never happened. So, is it the boy that cried wolf? I can't help but think that he's doing it for attention at times, so I think I'm becoming numb to it. He's so UP and DOWN. I rolled my eyes yesterday (he didn't see) when he said that he didn't want to live anymore. And, I think about that. What does that mean that someone makes a comment like that and my reaction is to roll my eyes?! Sometimes, I feel like I'm an awful person but yet I'm so tired of it.

Hi Flower, sorry to hear your ride on the Crazy Train is getting worse. Been on that ride, it was awful. It made me very sick.

I quoted the above so I could share with you my experience with my AXH. I went through the same thing. My AXH was depressed which he "medicated" with alcohol..which made him depressed so he drank some more... fun cycle that... every once in a while when he could sense I was gaining strength and he got worried I would leave or change his dynamic in any way, he'd throw down the old suicide card. It would send me for a loop... I didn't want to be the "reason" he killed himself... I was scared of all the fallout that would happen for me and our kids if he went through with it... I tied myself up in knots with the fear and anxiety of it all.

It was straight up manipulation on his part. He knew that if I was swirling in my own chaos I wasn't going to be able to be strong enough to leave him. He was right. That tactic worked on me for long time. He do these disappearing acts and I would wonder if he was dead or alive, work myself into a frenzy over it, he'd end up coming home drunk and I'd be so relieved he was alive I'd keep my mouth shut. Fun times. He even admitted it when I finally figured it out and called him on it as we were breaking up. He said he would do what ever he had to do to feed his demons. He even tried it again once I was living in my own place, he wanted to get out of paying me what he owed me in marital equity so he tried using the threat of suicide to get me to back down. I looked him in the eye and told him that kind of BS didn't work on me anymore...so he got up and walked out. He called hours later to apologize and we finished working out the details of the separation agreement.

I've heard through the grapevine he has now started the disappearing acts on the current woman in his life....Also the "woe is me and my depression" acts.... I guess he figured it worked for years on me, he will see what kind of mileage he can get out of it on her now. I don't like the woman, but I hope she doesn't put up with it for as long as I did.

My AXH, my brother and my eldest stepson have all used the threat of suicide (several times each) to manipulate the people around them. Not so coincidentally they all have mental health and substance abuse issues. They are also, all three of them, very much alive.

While I think threats of suicide should be taken seriously... I abhor when people use it as a means of manipulation. It is the most vile form of emotional abuse that I can think of. It drove me into a severe anxiety disorder.I suggest when your alcoholic says those kinds of things you call the authorities... if he is serious he gets help, and if he is "just" being a manipulative jerk, maybe he will cut it the heck out if he knows you will call 911 when he says that stuff.

I hate that he puts you through that. His life is not actually in your hands, he just wants you to think so. I hope you know that.

*hugs*

I also wanted to add, my ex started suicidal threats & manic episodes after 5 years of being together... things just became worse & worse. I think it was manipulation but honestly in my opinion, it’s 100% not my job to clinically evaluate her! For me, it was the absolute breaking point! She refused help as well so I packed a bag and left. Heartbreaking but the best decision I ever made. Much love...

I don't want to take suicide threats lightly - but when they're being made over and over, in contexts where the threats are clearly instrumental (i.e. to get someone to do something they might not otherwise do), I think it's legitimate to say "okay, kill yourself or don't, that will be your decision and nothing to do with me. You know where to find the crisis line number".

Hi flower. Well it certainly sounds like a crazy train and I'm sorry that continues for you. It's been two years since you last posted and it sounds like you are just watching the progression of the alcoholism.

It's not going to get better on its own. He isn't going to magically wake up some day and all will be well. He is obviously not interested in any recovery right now.

Unfortunately, you are enabling him to continue like this. Now, "enabling" is not the same as being responsible for, you are not responsible for his untreated alcoholism, that's his own thing.

By holding his hand, lifting him up, accepting his verbal abuse, ignoring the elephant in the room you are enabling him to carry on with the status quo with very little downside. He doesn't have to deal with much of anything I'm going to guess - including going to the clinic and then on to the ER. You are right there driving him around and holding his hand, just as you were there to drive him to get ice cream two years ago.

So what is the downside to his drinking for him? He still has you, a place to live, someone to look after him, someone who will take his verbal abuse (which will probably intensify). As his physical symptoms become more prominent, as he has to realize this is not such a fun situation anymore, you are going to be the recipient of that anger apparently, as he lashes out.

Is this the life you want? Caring for an alcoholic that has no intention of getting help?

It doesn't get better from here on out by the way.

There is no "we" in this change. The only person you can change is yourself, he is not interested in change. What are you doing for yourself?

You mean kind of like the alcoholic, talks about the drinking being a problem but then when too much focus is put on that issue it’s time to stop the talks and bury heads in the sand again.

I think for the many people who begin to attend al-anon with the expectation of helping the alcoholic to stop drinking, there comes great disappointment.

touching lightly on the "suicide threat" topic.....read any recent news story about someone who actually, tragically committed suicide and the common thing you hear from family and loved ones is - We Had No Idea. meaning the person didn't run around making threats of self harm every time the weather changed. those truly in danger of self harm are very quiet, very introspective - because the contemplation of actually ending ones' own life is VERY personal.

that being said, whenever someone makes a clear statement of pending self harm, we should always call 911.

i should think having the SAME conversation about the SAME thing on a repeat cycle has to be crazy making. what if you changed YOUR responses? he is not hearing you and the end result is always the same. by remaining engaged in the same endless loop, you both assure that nothing changes, and it's SSDD 365 days a year.