Are healthy, "normal" people already "detached"?
 

I had never heard of detachment until I got involved with an alcoholic. In fact, detachment doesn't seem to be talked about at all, outside of the context of alcoholism. Are most people just wired to detach when necessary? And what happens when you find "the one"? Why even have a romantic relationship if you're going to detach?

In my mind, detachment is like the antidote to unhealthy enmeshment.

I believe it's very possible to be in love and committed to another without becoming overly dependent on them, or them on you, without feeling the need to manage, explain, support or cure their ills. In a healthy attachment, each partner takes care of themselves first.

You don't need to detach in a healthy relationship.
It's a way of protecting yourself from someone else who is crashing and burning.

I think they are, yes. Because detachment is about not getting so wrapped up in another person that you lose yourself. Healthy relationships don't involve obsession, having your emotions massively affected by that of the other person (feeling down or happy because they do), trying to control each other or feeling responsible for each other's actions.

Detachment is only talked about among our circles because it is not our usual state of mind so it's something we have to identify and name in order to understand.

Therefore, it is perfectly possible to detach with love. I would say it's actually more loving to detach than otherwise. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would much prefer a man who knew who he was and what he was about than one who was obsessed with fixing me!

As far as C's observation and relationships -- Healthy folks tend to dump A's FAST.

None of this lingering "waiting to see a miracle," nonsense.

Which is probably why Rational Recovery works for the folks who follow that path. They announce -- "ANY of this Crap, and YOU are Gone!" So of course, the A pulls "this crap" (or that crap) and it is Done and Over.

Detachment with a Chainsaw.

Yes. I agree. My friends who are the most successful and balanced would never date or spend much time with an A. They see the signs/red flags and do not engage. They don't even see it as an option. A friend who saw issues with my exA was like well I guess you know now so its over. It wasn't. I needed a few more years of the chaos. Kind of like the new folks who post bad situations here or people that cannot seem to leave but their A is not in recovery and we say so when are you leaving? The healthier you are, the less tolerant of the chaos you are...IMO.

It seems to me that detachment is a codie's version of not taking a drink. I think codependency is an addiction to other people and/or their problems. Addiction = disease, so I guess healthy people are free of the enmeshment/over-attachment symptom in the first place. It's like they just live in a state of detachment. I don't know. I've never been "healthy." ... YET!

I think they are. I think they have healthy boundaries and know where they end and where the other person starts. I look at some of my friends who can say things like "My husband is in a foul mood today, stomping around and grumbling. So I decided to come have coffee with you so he could settle down." When I was a full-blown codie, I would never have done that because his anger would have been mine and I would have seen it as my job to make it go away.

Yes, this is exactly how I felt. Our moods had to be in perfect synch. I could not allow him to feel what he felt if it was different than where I was at, had to convince him that he was not really feeling what he was feeling or else, if I happened to accept that he was actually feeling whatever it was, I had to convince him that there was no reason for him to feel it and so he should change how he felt...

Good lord, it is so insane, looking back!

I realized my RAH was probably Codie last year during some reading. So now he keeps telling me, "I always let you do your own thing. You run, you take classes, you XYZ." And he says this in a tone that makes me think, "You wanted me to sit in the garage and watch you drink? I was detaching for some normality. What do you want now? For me to sit in the garage and watch you smoke? ". Yes I think he wants me at his beck and call.

But then I wonder, I really do just do my own thing. Maybe I take advantage of it? But then I think of all the Angry denial that none of his "allergy" impacted me or DS. I think of all the arguments with me pretty much begging for marriage counseling, admitting I am lonely in our marriage and no intimacy. Not even cuddled or held. So something is wrong with him. I have done all I can do. The next think I probably need to learn is how to let go. I keep working my steps and I can't pick all the blame up. I really can't apologize for kicking him out last year because I did it for my sanity - not his. He sees everything from his POV and it is muddled with beer and other emotions that are not for me to guess at.

So I lived with some detachment with an active A, but I am catching some heck for it in early recovery. What do I do? Book a trip in May without H!! :lmao

Honeypig, my therapist used the word "Atlas Complex" -- you are carrying the world on your shoulders and everything is your responsibility to set straight! No wonder we were exhausted, huh?

lillamy, this is making me laugh, b/c I always, always have major tension and knots (seriously, this is not a figure of speech--hard lumps that won't release!) in my shoulders when I go for a massage! I think I was literally "carrying the world on my shoulders" and apparently still am, to some extent...

Well, progress, not perfection, right? Thanks for the info and the amusement!

Laughing about this one driving today.

Some months back here was some woman that checked into the Friends and Family Addict Forum, just below.

She was NOT a Codie. Hubby had hid his addiction(s) before they were married, and of course, they did not stay hidden too long. She said This Crap was NOT what she signed up for.

She gave him a month to get things cleaned up.

She was done with him in a little over 3 weeks, as I recall.

Just Dumped Him.

I think her reasoning was that he would not clean up in 4 weeks what he had not cleaned up in 3 weeks.

We could learn something from that.

growing up....i knew i was not someones DOOR MAT!...i had self esteem for ME...i walked away from many so people...because they just where not rite for me...

Even healthy people put up with crap - everybody has crap in a relationship. Their way of dealing with it is different than us Codie's is all.

So how do you detach? I have read this several times about detachment but I don't know how to do it or even how to start. I need to detach from my husband he has made his choice to leave and I need to focus on me and my kids but at the minute all I think about is what I have done wrong! I need to detach and stop worrying about him and worry about myself and my kids

Try this Detaching - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

and this http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...etting-go.html

and this http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...rty-lines.html

from the stickied threads at the top of the page for a starting point, maybe?

Hope you find something useful there. I'm sure others will have more to add.

I am starting to realize that for me it is about not "picking up" what someone else has laid down.

Someone is grumpy....I am not, I don't have to pick their stuff up.

I picked everything up for so long. It is only the last six months or so that I am realizing that just because there is conflict....does not make it mine. About three weeks ago I had someone coming at me in anger (it was not my fault)....and I finally realized that she was 1. angry 2. Not at me, but just angry and 3. Finding a release valve to get it out.

My job was to take it or not. For the first time in 30+ years I did not take it. I did not mull over what I had done wrong. I got frustrated, stood up for myself (though was calm), and got to let it go later that day.

Don't get me wrong I have been in conflict before....but I ALWAYS thought it was my fault underneath. It was such a freeing experience when I did not pick it up this time.

In my opinion people with healthier dispositions don't pick it up to the same degree as I do.

I am here to say though that I am a teachable being, and I can learn.

See, that's where I disagree. That's what I told myself when I was married to an A. That everyone has issues in their relationships, alcoholism is just our issue.

I think everyone has problems now and again. But not necessarily in their relationships. I mean, right now, we've got financial problems because I'm still paying the flinging flanging divorce lawyer 1/4 of my paycheck every month. But that doesn't have to translate to crap in the relationship. I absolutely, unapologetically refuse to ever put up with crap in a relationship ever again. If there is crap in the relationship, either it goes or I go.

(Does that mean I'm getting healthy or intolerant? :lmao)

Not tolerating crap IS healthy.

Intolerant is probably a good trait for a Codie to strive for. Yet another trait we need in a positive way! Too funny Lillamy.

Terrific question.

I believed detachment was a form of not being 'all in' in any given relationship(personal, professional, etc).

Then I became a spouse of an alcoholic.

While I was 'all in' during the beginning, I realized(thanks mostly to this site) that to survive the emotional roller coaster that my life had become, I would need to look out for me and the kids first, and not totally emmerse my life/heart/self into my wife's decision to keep feeding her addiction.

It also allowed me to seperate my 'highs' and 'lows' from being attached to her daily highs and lows, largely attributed to her addiction.

Detachment also became implicit to the fact that I cannot control her, her addictions, moods, etc, and cannot be expected to.

It's a survival mechanism, and yes, I think we all have it. I think we end up finding it when we arrive/descend to certain thresholds, and when our personal levels of tolerances are reached or broken.

Then we make it a decision on whats best for us, not the other person.

Guess that depends on your definition of crap……..

The percentage of marriages or longterm relationships that don't endure some very, very stressful times are few and far between.

All beings are fallible not just Alkies and Codies. Certainly a healthy person may handle something differently - however, I have seen healthy people handle things poorly. Not in a codependent manner, there are other "bad" ways to handle things.

My MIL's brother lived with her at one point. He had been sober for years, and he and my widowed MIL got along great--sharing the care of their mother, etc.

So one day she realized he was drinking again, and possibly drugging. I thought I would help her out by suggesting she go to Al-Anon.

Before I could get the words out, she had kicked him out, and changed the locks on her door and her phone number.

I never forgot that. I was so impressed.

We select our mates during the dating process. Healthy folks do not fall in love with someone's potential and at the first or maybe second red flag during the courting stage, they will dump them like a hot potato. Also healthy people tend to avoid people with "baggage". Us codies tend to gravitate to them ready to put our little fixer/caretaker hat on since of course we can make things better and live happily ever after once the person is fixed and upgraded to our specifications
>rolling eyes<

As an aside, I have terrible problems with this too. And then last month my boss treated me to a kind of massage I hadn't had before - Ashiatsu, the kind where they literally walk on you using an inverted balance bar in the ceiling. OMG - it was the BEST massage I have ever had & she totally crunched all that tension in my shoulders & under the shoulder blades. I went in apprehensive & came out like jello, ready to book a 2nd appt. It was AMAZING.

So... I've been thinking about this all day, trying to come up with an example of a healthy relationship in my world so that I could ponder on the similarities/differences using an IRL example.

And... I can't think of a single, happy, healthy couple among any of our friends or families. That is SO sad. Between addictions, PTSD/anger issues, mental illness... I can't think of anyone married or in a committed relationship that isn't facing some kind of dysfunction. :frown:

I'm only chiming in because before I knew my husband was guzzling vodka we were seeing a marriage counselor who specialized in EFT and basically how attachment in a marriage is healthy. She sold me on it but it doesn't apply to people who have major individual issues to overcome first. (Everyone has problems. Hubs and I individually have big ones.)

“The overall conclusion: a sense of secure connection between romantic partners is key in positive loving relationships and a huge source of strength for the individuals in those relationships. Among the more significant findings:

• When we feel generally secure, that is, we are comfortable with closeness and confident about depending on loved ones, we are better at seeking support — and better at giving it. In a study by psychologist Jeff Simpson of the University of Minnesota, each of eighty-three dating couples filled out questionnaires about their relationship and then sat in a room. The female partner had been warned she would soon be participating in an activity that made most people very anxious (the activity wasn’t spelled out). The women who described themselves as feeling secure in love relationships on the questionnaires were able to share their unhappiness about the upcoming task openly and ask for support from their partners. Women who generally denied their attachment needs and avoided closeness withdrew more at these moments. Men responded to their partners in two ways: when they described themselves as secure with relationships, they became even more supportive than usual, touching and smiling at their partners and offering comfort; if they described themselves as uncomfortable with attachment needs, they became markedly less sympathetic “when their partners expressed their needs, downplaying their partners’ distress, showing less warmth, and touching less.

• When we feel safely linked to our partners, we more easily roll with the hurts they inevitably inflict, and we are less likely to be aggressively hostile when we get mad at them. Mario Mikulincer of Bar-Ilan University in Israel conducted a series of studies asking participants questions about how connected they felt in relationships and how they dealt with anger when conflicts arose. Their heart rates were monitored as they responded to scenarios of couples in conflict. Those who felt close to and could depend on partners reported feeling less angry with and attributing less malicious intent to their partners. They described themselves as expressing anger in a more controlled way, and expressed more positive goals, such as solving the problems and reconnecting with their partners.

• Secure connection to a loved one is empowering. In a group of studies Mikulincer showed that when we feel safely connected to others we understand ourselves better and like ourselves more. When given a list of adjectives to describe themselves, the more secure folks picked out positive traits. And when asked about their “weak points, they readily said they fell short of their own ideals but still felt good about themselves.
Mikulincer also found, as Bowlby predicted, that securely bonded adults were more curious and more open to new information. They were comfortable with ambiguity, saying they liked questions that could be answered in many different ways. In one task, a person’s behavior was described to them and they were asked to evaluate this person’s negative and positive traits. Connected participants more easily absorbed new information about the person and revised their assessments. Openness to new experience and flexibility of belief seems to be easier when we feel safe and connected to others. Curiosity comes out of a sense of safety; rigidity out of being vigilant to threats.

• The more we can reach out to our partners, the more separate and independent we can be. Although this flies in the face of our culture’s creed of self-sufficiency, psychologist Brooke Feeney of Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh found exactly that in observations of 280 couples. Those who felt that their needs were accepted by their partners were more confident about solving problems on their own and were “more likely to successfully achieve their own goals.”

Thank you Stung. That was excellent . Reading that I feel that no matter how much recovery I get, I am permanently dammaged :(

Permanently damaged? No way!! Wax on, wax off, Carlotta!

None of that applies to me now nor at any point in my past. But I'd like to have a mate that I know I can count on and that I feel secure with, but I can't have any of that with someone else until I have it with myself. Which is where I am now, trying to like myself a little more and feel more secure in my own abilities.

Just seems like we're all trying to detach because we did attachment wrong the first time. I don't think attachment is bad, I think codependency is bad. I think detach refers to not being codependent anymore. Codependency is always bad.