Not at all surprised to hear of this diagnosys, expected it TBH. I'd be more concerned about how much of him will rub off on your son than leaving with a clear conscious that you gave him more chances than he deserved.

In the new DSM (Diagnostic Statistical Manual) 5, the "psychological Bible", NPD is not a designated disorder anymore. I wonder how the narcissists feel about that? HA!

This is smoke and mirrors. He says he's working on it because saying he's working on it works on you. He knows that you'll gladly live on his crumbs.

NPD people are not capable of the introspection necessary to make deep personal changes in their lives. You're just his mirror -- and you're only useful to him as long as you're reflecting back nice things about him to him.

Newer fMRI scans are showing up that generally the Long Term "Personality" Disorders are sort of Hardware Brain Malfunctions.

So while it is not written in stone, as you say, it is a real physical condition to over come with major rework of emotional and relationship behaviors.

Nature, in this case, does not favor recovery.

So, it may not be written in stone, it is written on the brain.

thank you Hammer.

Beth

I'm pretty sure my (deceased) father had both NPD and substance abuse issues. I suppose it's no surprise I have a 'broken picker.'

My couples therapist told me my ex is a narc and said "There is no salvation and if you don't want a life of deep insanity, then run"

I didn't listen of course cause I knew he would change and we would be ok. Well a year into it, he cheated and then all the real juicy crazy came out of him. I left, never looked back
I can spot a narc from a mile now.

There is no cure because it's not a disease, it's a personality. It would be like trying to turn someone gay/straight, a dog into a cat, a flower into a tree......it just is

My take on the whole "acting nice" thing, narcissists will use it later on to manipulate. It's just another tool for their toolbox.

Well, the good news is that, while I am hopeful as I am an eternal optimist(very codie behavior, I know), I am finally becoming more of a realist. I know that he may never change, heck his own mother told me that he wasn't going to change because she felt that my AH was just like my father in law. She passed away a few days later unexpectedly and those words turned out to be some of her last to me.

But, I am comfortable where I am right now. I am comfortable taking this time to work on my steps with my sponsor, finding the time for meetings, doing summer school with my son, getting him to his out of state tournaments, organizing my son's summer tutoring schedule, etc. I guess I am OK with where we are at because I'm finding it easy to wait to see if AH will truly take the initiative to change his life. Because AH is on meds for his anxiety he no longer has angry aggressive outbursts and I believe his ADHD meds help him with his inattentiveness and he is now finishing more projects around the house instead of leaving them half done. Things are not perfect in our lives, I don't know if our marriage will survive, I know that we have a lot of work to do, but I also know we can't do that work until AH is in a place of healing for himself. I have a feeling that I will know it when the time comes. For now, waiting is OK, I have come to accept that it really is OK for me and for us.

Wow, Liz....you sure could have fooled me!!!!

sincerely, dandylion

Liz, we all walk different roads with different stop signs and you haven't come to your stop sign with the detour yet. A couple of years ago people here were pointing to my sign but at that time I couldn't see it, take your time, it's your time.

Liz, you do know that this is pretty much the same as saying:

This isn't a character defect. It is who he is. Through medication and hard work he may reach a place where he can do a pretty good job of faking empathy but he will never feel it. It's just not part of him.

Your friend,

So true! Their "generosity" comes with major strings attached!

My ex works as an apartment maintenance manager, so he was given a free apartment. We agreed that he would live somewhere else, and me and our son would live in the apartment. Well, I lived there less than a month when he came into the apartment at 4AM in the morning while he was *very* drunk. (He used his master key to get in.) I began looking for another apartment, and I moved as quickly as a could. But of course, my ex now pretends that incident never happened and he wrote in his court declaration that he provided a free apartment for me and our son, so of course he must be a fit parent.

He recently told me, "I don't know what world you live in, it must be a fairy tale world where everywhere is perfect." I guess for narcissists, knowing that other people have a conscience is actually like a "fairy tale."

I just wanted to say that this thread has been majorly therapeutic for me. A portion of my drinking was brought on by my NPD in-laws. I wanted to keep trying to help my SIL and her children - my niece and nephew - while my husband just wanted to STAY AWAY from his sister as well as his NPD father. It caused a lot of conflict for all parties. It was impossible and I just recently learned to keep them out of our lives and our childrens' lives.

My SIL is my FIL's "golden child" and if you do or say anything to suggest she is not the most terrific, sexy, talented, beautiful, generous, funny, and intelligent person in the world - you better watch out. There is nothing like narcissistic rage.

My husband and I are resolved to our decision - which unfortunately, includes excluding my innocent niece and nephew. Narcissists never change; they are absolutely broken. This thread has really helped my understand my own motives, and my desperate need for extended family since my own family lives 7 hours away.

Liz, what is it that you are worried about losing? Is it income? Being blamed for breaking up the family? I understand how narcissists deflect blame - their accusations can be devastating if you believe what they say.

Throughout the years I have seen my FIL and SIL cheat, lie, steal, manipulate, gaslight, viciously ostracize and physically harm people weaker than them. It took me 15 years to realize that my role as a "good wife" did not include associating with people who are verging on sociopathy.

I'm going to agree with fedup3 here. You haven't reached your detour sign yet, and that's okay. I took that time for myself and it was a great thing. Use it for you.

That said, with all of the talk you're doing of seeing whether or not your AH will change? I hope you're researching and reading about people with NPD and their partners. You will need this knowledge. It explains all of your frustrations with your AH. Every single one. To me, a dual diagnosis of NPD and alcoholism would be the final nail in the coffin. There is no change, there is no validation, there is no understanding, there never will be, not for you, not for any of his children, not in any of his future relationships. He's not capable of it. You're looking for warm fuzzies down a black hole.

With love, I've been there.

i keep wondering why you think your NOT WORTH it...?

(i remember my late husbands last words too about his alcoholic parents--and i remember it all the time...."their choatic lives are just not worth our insanity")

Only when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the fear of changing do we change. I made my changes only when the pain brought me to my knees. I wasn't sure if I would survive, but I did, and life is really, really good over here on the other side.

As much as I would like to prevent that pain for others by telling them my story, I know that each person has to live out their own story and feel their own pain. Liz, I can see that pain looming on the horizon for you, but until you see it--and feel it, there is nothing I can say to convince you of it's inevitable arrival. Just know that you will survive, and SR will be here for you when that day comes.

L

I will continue to be the "black sheep" here on this thread.

I keep thinking about this lifelong condemnation without chance for change, this one stroke of a pen, and this psychologist that has labeled Liz's husband as NPD, unrepairable--for life, to never understand nor feel true compassion, empathy, sympathy, and with that condemnation, basically unfit for relationships with other humans.
And I think to myself--No one single person on this planet has the right to be his higher power. No one psychologist on this planet, or even a group of psychologists, has the right to say that he will NEVER change, or, ANY of us will never change.
There are no nevers on this planet. Everyone is capable of change.
Why am I coming to his defense? I'm not really...I'm coming to the defense of mankind, and that includes me, you, and all those who don't read this. EVERYONE.

Psychology is an inexact science at best. Psychologists are other humans, not gods. Psychologists can do a lot of good, or a lot of harm. Psychologists/psychiatrists, have made errors, agreed? Revamped what is acceptable treatment, changed their methods over the centuries. They are mere humans too.
I will go so far as to say that I think it is arrogant to label someone as "unable to change for the rest of their life".
If nothing else, I would want several "experts" to come to the same conclusion, that he has NPD traits (which by the way we all do to some extent, there are extreme cases yes).
If it were me with such a diagnosis, I would fight it. I can't help but seeing myself in his shoes. Such a label! Such condemnation! We are merely humans, with very limited knowledge about the human brain, no matter what "expert" label one of us has been given in the psychology community, no matter what awards, PhD's, hang on the office wall.
Ok, rant over.
Now I hope in time Liz will update us on what he actually does after receiving this label.

Narcissists tend to not give a sh*t about labels.

And labels aren't condemnation. They are simply used as a classification system. It's us humans that give such labels good or bad associations to them.

Thing is - he either will live up to it or he won't. It really is that simple. To me, the issue isn't the label, its what the OP chooses to do with the information that matters. Is this a deal-breaker? Or a starting point to some kind of understanding and acceptance to his limitations?

It's not about lifelong condemnation without hope of change. It's about the same thing all of us have struggled with. It doesn't matter if someone is NPD, alcoholic, drug addict, or just plain jerk. That is who they are *right now.*

The choice we have is whether to live in the here and now, or in the possible, maybe, potential future. There is always the possibility of change. However, we have to choose if we want to live our lives waiting and hoping for that change, or make our decisions based on what is, rather than what could be. If you only love someone for who they could be, not who they are right now, is that really love?

L