Has anyone here ever been Step Nined?
 

I'm sure it's years away for me, if it ever happens at all, but I had the terrible thought that I won't ever see my ex again until he tries to apologize for ruining my life.

I've heard either cute anecdotes from people who were Step Nined by RAs who they only vaguely remembered from high school, or one terrible SR thread in which the poster was ambushed at the airport and hastily "amended at" and was left feeling even more violated than ever...

Does Step Nine ever end well for the people who have been truly hurt? I understand the need for the RA to clean their side of street, but does the recipient ever get solace too? Or is it just more torment? I'm pretty good at Google, but I've yet to find a single positive story... Does anyone here have one?

I must say, I'm interested in what folks have to say about this. I've always had mixed feelings about the 9th step myself, having been on both sides of the equation.

I do think that the proviso in the step ("except when to do so would injure them or others") is too often ignored.

I'm also interested. In my fantasy, it would only be a good thing. But of the 4 alkies in my life, I doubt I'll ever have anyone try to make amends except possibly my son. My father is dead. Two XAHs are not likely to ever stop drinking. But it would be sweet if my son wanted to make amends. I can't imagine how that would be worse.

I had the opposite thought about the proviso: that it's used too often as a cop out, as in, I'd apologize and make amends to my exwife, but it would injure her or me (because she'd unload all her anger on me and I'd be injured by it).

I haven't heard of any bad stories about step nine to the people getting the amends; I'm curious now and will have to do a search.

Great question cli. I haven't gotten amends, and it leaves a gaping hole in my heart. I wonder why it does that.

My sponsor has a great approach to making amends. One of the things it includes is asking the other person "What would it take to make things right by you?" I think that really can make a difference and especially in cases where there is a concern of causing further harm (the exception that onlythetruth brought up). I also agree with SadHeart that the exception is too often used as a cop out: in other words, the person "making amends" never really completed Step Eight (8) properly. In effect, the person doesn't become willing to, and chooses not to "make amends" at all to the other person.

The A who really affected my life didn't listen when he went to treatment and I said when you get to step 9 and wish to make an amends to me you can do it the form of a living amends by living a sober life and never ever treating a woman the way you treated me... And I made it clear I did it clear I did not want to ever hear from him nor have him contact me to make an amends. He didn't listen or I should say he did listen told his sponsor who said you decide if you mail the letter to her. He did I wrote return to sender with out opening it. He did later several months to a year talk to me on the phone. Did his amends made me feel even worse. Now if he were to make an amends to me today 5 1/2 years later I could hear what he had to say and offer forgiveness at the time he did his amends the wound was still to fresh. I sometimes think that they rush into the big big amends to fast. I think that an apology and working to live a sober honest respectful life at those times along with an apology is best... Then later when the wounds are not so fresh to offer a better apology if you will. I also sometimes think they are a little too forthcoming in dumping what they did and why not bc they are truly making an amends but bc they just want to clear their conscious. So from my experience it hasn't gone well but I think that is bc the wound was to fresh for me at the time. Maybe that is why you can't find many positive stories. I think the positives you might find are the amends done with those who may or may not have ever realized they were slighted or were not as close to the A. Just my thoughts.

I must say, I have had that thought myself. I do think the proviso can be a cop out, definitely. I sometimes even wonder if Bill put that proviso in the step to give him a reason not to apologize to Lois for his cheating ("it will hurt her").

No, none of the alcoholics or addicts that affected my life in horrible ways have ever even remotely made direct amends or even apologized. Though the last crack addict in my life has kept in touch and come over to help with some things around the house that I could not do by myself. But that is just the kind of person he is, and has nothing to do with purposely working Step 9. I am grateful.

My ex has not made amends even though he has been sober for awhile now. I'm not sure if he does AA/Step work or not? Our communication is very limited and that works for us. He was inpatient for a very long time (over a year) and then close follow along so if he were going to I imagine it would have happened already.

I could really care less. It is all in the past for me and if he makes amends or not doesn't matter to me at all. I want him to stay sober for his kids and leave me alone and that is enough.

I can sure see where amends might make the person receiving feel worse, especially if done to soon. I also think it is totally mean and selfish to make an amend and confess to hurtful behavior the other person didn't even know about.

It's an interesting dichotomy - and I have heard from many recovering A's both ways: make amends, or don't and simply live them. Seems, in my experience, the longer the person had been in AA, the more likely they felt making direct amends was important, and "living amends" was a cop out.

I got a minor attempt at amends...but it was all washed away by continuing to do the very things he was trying to apologize for. My kids got no amends, or not even an acknowledgement to any of us just how bad things were. I still think to this day my ex was trying to minimize in his head the damage that had been done.

My friend made amends to me - hers were very direct and to the point. I appreciated it very much, but 5 years had past between the event and the amends, so emotions were not high about it.

The point of amends anyway, is to reduce one's guilt over bad behavior, not necessarily to apologize to others and make them feel better. Amends are for us personally, to be able to be grown ups and acknowledge our wrongs and be wholly accountable for them. To learn to say, "I messed up, I did that wrong, and I am sorry" on a regular basis. To have some humility. To let go of the ego and false pride.

Many are simply unable to do that.

This post makes me think....I've been thinking about this subject alot lately. I know in working on myself and codie issues I have repeatedly apologized for specific codie actions, also point out current codie behaviors and adjust myself and I am mindful and try very hard to live my amends. That's with my current RABF.

I have been pondering the amends I've witnessed or received from the A's in my life. My BF kind of offers a blanket apology but never discusses specifics kind of still "sweeps it under the rug". But he is sober and working on being a better BF. My mother also kind of did a blanket apology and had a more or less "sweep it under the rug and soldier on" kind of attitude. And frankly this way of "dealing with it" reminds me very much of exactly what we did when they were drinking. Honestly I feel slighted. And I don't know if that's ok? I'm confused as to the "healthy" aproach to this subject. Should it be enough a blanket apology and a sober life of amends? or should they be told and forced to aknowledge the damage they've done?

Apology is good, but I want the money. I don't care if they live soberly and happily or not. I want the $90K my first XAH cost me and the $55K the second XAH cost me.

If my father was alive and wanted to make amends I can't imagine what he could do. How do you make amends for rejecting your child daily, for making her childhood a tense and sad thing, for not loving her. Even if after 40 years he suddenly decided he did love me, I wouldn't want it. I doubt it would hurt or help.

My son, if he made amends, I'd be so happy. Just go back to all the people he told lies about me and his brothers to, and tell the truth. To apologize to his brothers. To acknowledge the horrible things he did--and to live soberly, supporting himself and participating in family events. That would be wonderful.

Then they aren't amends, and no wonder they have the potential to hurt the people they've already hurt. According to this, the amends are all about the RA, not about the one they mistreated. Again. And again. It's always about the alkie, and the alkie is never held responsible.

Amends that are meant to make the RA feel better and not the victim of the RA's past actions, aren't amends, they are a form of masturbation.

It isn't to make the alcoholic feel better. It is a mechanism of taking personal responsibility for one's life and actions, past, present, and future. There's a big difference between the two.

My problem with Step 9 is I don't know if I could ever believe it was sincere.
That would be my problem, not his, though.

I have gotten apologies before, and they always sound like excuses "I'm sorry for (insert words) BUT...."
I'd rather have silence....

Al-Anon practices the same step, for the same reason.

Step Nine is an action step in which we become humble enough to verbalize our regrets, if appropriate, to the people we’ve harmed. Identifying the persons we have harmed in Step 8 took courage. Because of our thoroughness, we build character by calling upon our Higher Power for the courage to change the things we can. We cannot undo our past and we cannot expect those we approach to respond positively, but we can admit our part and do whatever is possible to mitigate the consequences of our past errors.

In making amends, we need to understand that we’re not necessarily making an apology. There are differences between amends and apologies. In making an apology, we usually say, “I’m sorry” expecting a response of acceptance, pardon or forgiveness. In making amends, we may state our errors, our role in the incident and that we will correct their behavior for the future. We may or may not ask for forgiveness, and we may or may not experience a positive response. In many cases our changed behavior indicated stronger amends than words can ever be. If we have any expectation of the response to amends, we’re setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I know I benefited greatly from my own Step 9 process.

Wait, I believe an apology is meant to reduce one's own guilt, while also vowing never to cause the same harm again. But making amends means to repair the damage one has already done to others. At least that's what the dictionary tells me. Is this why no one here has a positive Step Nine story to tell (as a recipient)...? :cries3:

Others may join the conversation with positive stories. I have my own, but they are related to how I felt when I made my own amends through my Step work. Not because I made them, but because acknowledging my limitations allowed me to work on those, and become a better person through it all.

I freely admit I placed high expectations on the concept I had at the time of what amends would look like. More than anything, I wanted to be respected instead of apologized to. Apologies, in my world, mean nothing if the behaviors one is apologizing for don't change. I could have forgiven and lived with the past if the present had changed, amends or not.

So for me, the process of making amends, or apologizing, however one wants to interpret the definitions, isn't sincere if there is no behavior change that follow it up. It is only words, no matter how nice they may be at the moment.

I was nine stepped and it meant a lot to me. It was a casual friend, someone who I had worked with, and was more of a friend to my husband, but he was part of "our" group of friends. He had forceably come onto me one day. I had let it go and thought that he would never even remember it. We still remained friends after that, I just made sure that I was never alone with him again.

He had been in and out of AA ,rehab, and SLE for years. He called me about 25 years after this happened to apologize to me. I accepted his apology, and we became better friends. We used to then talk on the phone for at least an hour a week, but only when he was sober. He never called me drunk, and never made any advances towards me.

While we were talking, he told me that he sent his ex-wife a 7 page apology for hurting her. He asked me how I would feel if I received one of those. He was upset because he was afraid that it might upset her more, and he didn't want to do that. But he never got an answer from her as to how she accepted it.

Trying to make a long story short here.

He died 2 years ago. He rented a cabin, got booze, and drank himself to death. Honestly do not believe it was suicide. He lived through 2 of his siblings committing suicide. He felt so much guilt and hurt over that.

Went to his wake. His ex-wife is the one who made all of the arrangements for the wake, even though they were then divorced for 15 years. His current girlfriend was also at the wake with her 23 year old son. They came in from Florida. Wake was in NJ. I was always friends with the ex-wife, but hadn't spoken to her since they divorced. She told me about the letter that he wrote to her. Said that she would treasure that forever, that that was the Jimmy that she knew, she said that she never hated Jimmy, that he always remained in her heart, she just couldn't live with him.

She also told me that she didn't believe it was suicide, and I agreed with her. In the letter Jimmy had also told her that "we" had gotten close and that he talked to me a lot, so I did tell her what he had said to me about his feelings about suicide. She was relieved.

She also had his current girlfriend and her son stay with her and her husband during the wake and the funeral.

Thank you for sharing Amy55.

I want the A's in my life to live a full life of recovery coupled with complete awareness of how their words and actions have affected and do affect the people in their lives.

My head says that "living amends" is enough, but really, I want a sincere apology and acknowledgement as well as actual amends.

Too often my feelings were minimized: "you're too soft", "you're making something out of nothing", "can't you take a joke", "I was drunk - I didn't know what I was saying", "Well, if you're going to make a big deal out of it"......... or silence.

And, "I don't remember" or "I was blacked out" isn't good enough - ask me. Unfortunately, I can't forget.

By whitewashing this step, I feel they are continuing to sweep the tough feelings it includes under the carpet and that is the first step to landing right back where they were. (Unless of course, to do so would really cause harm to others.)

Rereading this it sounds bitter, but I don't feel bitter. It just would be nice to have, finally, some true accountability on their part.

Just how I feel.

I have been - from my boss.

Even though she still drinks, and still kills me - daily, It makes me feel much better remembering her phone call that day.

She had written a letter that she read to me, detailing some of the hurt she had caused me. She genuinely apologized - something I had never received from her before. And she genuinely apologizes more often now. Rather than the half as$ (don't hate me) apologies she used to give.

It helped me know that she knows the hell she causes. Before that phone call, I really thought she was drunkenly oblivious to the mess she causes for everyone around her.

My first love was my high school and first 2yrs of college boyfriend. I knew he was an alcoholic but I really didn't understand the disease. I was very close to his family and in some ways remained close to them. When I ended the relationship, my ex vowed we would never be friends and he kept his word although we still had many mutual friends.

Many years later, after my mother died, he called me to offer his condolences. He had been married for several years and had 2 young children that he adored. IMO, calling me about my mother was sincere but also an excuse to admit he was an alcoholic and offer an apology for any hurt he caused me due to his drinking. His 9Th step.

We talked for over 2 hours and it was a great conversation. I had no hard feelings toward him - in which he was surprised. And for me, it was true - we never really get over our first love. I thought about him a lot for the next few days although I love my husband dearly. To my surprise, old memories triggered old feelings for a few days. I had practically grown up with him, lost my virginity to him, his family was like my second family. It was like a drug talking to him again after all these years and I wanted more. (not to be with him, but just more of a connection of sorts).

He was sober for one year and seemed very proud of it. Three months after that call, he hung himself. No one saw any signs!! It was a complete shock to everyone that was close to him. He left no note and everyone was left heart broken and confused.

The amends are for both people
 

This quote by Tuffgirl from Al-Anon's "Paths to Recovery" book, pages 90-91, hits most of the main points ... as long as one carefully reads it:

I think in your case him paying you back with out you directly would be a good amends. I like what someone said earlier I think it was titanic for the person making amends to ask the person how can I make this right for you... Then doing whatever it is to demonstrate show the other person you admit your wrong and are doing whatever necessary to make things right. For some people that might just be an I'm sorry, for others it might be paying back money, yet for others it might be that they always tell the truth. For each person it will be different. I do disagree with whoever said its for them to relieve themselves of guilt. I strongly disagree that would make it extremely selfish step nine is meant to show others you are sorry for what you have done and to make things right not relieve yourself of guilt. That does come with it but I really don't feel it's it true point. Just my 2 cents

Someone wants to make an amends to me they can come up with a plan all on their own. I dislike the part about asking me what I need. Each person is different I guess. I have read the step 9 stuff so I know that is not something you specifically made up and it looks good on paper but my reaction tells me it is no for me. ;)

I'm all out of answers. If they are asking me how they should fix it - they missed the wrong they did. I'm tired of it all. I'm all done giving and all done doing the work. Do not show up in my life and once again - need something from me. Is there EVER an end to what I am expected to give to an alcoholic relationship?

Hmm - I'm sounding kind of witchy. Maybe there is a reason no amends have come my way, lmao. I guess if I ever get an amends it should be offered, not requested, or it probably won't end well. :)

Relieving guilt and self-amends are just part of it, but hardly close to all of it
 

It helps to remember that amends is a two-step and two-person issue (especially for us Non-A's who have tended to merge or enmesh those persons). Also, remember that both recovery programs are trying to motivate people - often by pointing out how one's own self-interest would be served in doing the right things. From the book for the family member of the alcoholic, How Al-Anon Works, at pages 57-60 (2008):

"STEP EIGHT
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

... Step Eight provides an opportunity to learn the difference between what is and is not our responsibility and to take a more realistic look at the effects of our actions.

... Usually there is one person upon whom we have inflicted the greatest damage - ourselves. ... So before any other names are added to our Eighth Step list, most of us need to write our own name.

Once our list is made, we face the task of becoming willing to make amends. It is not enough to simply admit to ourselves that we have been at fault [that we already should've done in Step Five]. Taking responsibility for our actions means making amends for the harm we have done. We needn't concern ourselves with the form our amends will take at this point - that comes in Step Nine. For now our only concern is finding the willingness to do what is necessary to right past wrongs.

... In considering the Eighth Step, it is important to remember that, until we can take this Step in a spirit of self-love and healing, we may not be ready for it. Step Eight, like the other Steps, is a step toward healing. It is not about humiliating ourselves or making others feel better at our expense. It is about owning up to what we have done and becomeing willing to free ourselves from the guilt and shame our actions have caused us.

STEP NINE
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

... We can express our regrets and make a commitment to try not to repeat past mistakes, but what's done is done. By taking Step Nine, we rid ourselves of the guilt that has weighed us down for so long. By facing the harm we have done and finding the most suitable form of amends for the situation, we can clean up whatever mess we have created and leave the past in the past.

... We wouldn't want embarrassment or resentment to tempt us to avoid an apology that we need to make or the repayment of a debt we owe. Nobody is standing watch over us to make sure we take this Step with sincerity. We are the only ones who will ever truly know. If we wish to free from the terrible, suffocating weight of guilt, we must take whatever action is necessary to make amends for the harm we have caused. Only then will we find real relief.

With this Step, we have an opportunity to choose the kind of person we would like to become and the kinds of relationships in which we would like to be involved. By making amends, we admit that we are human like everyone else and cease to set ourselves apart from others. ... The purpose of Step Nine is to do what we can to heal ourselves and our relationships, and to set ourselves free."

Yes, by my sister.

My sister is a recovering alcoholic and cocaine addict. She became sober through AA and at one point came over to my house to talk to me one-on-one.

I read this as meaning clearly that whatever else the purpose is in regards to benefiting the RA, there is an obligation in completing this step to fix the problems their past behavior caused to those they've harmed.

Wow. I was hoping for more specifics, but this is perfectly beautiful. Thank you so much...

That's a very interesting point, and I understand it. It can come off as 'tell me what to do to relieve my guilt for what I did to you'. Which comes off as another chore for you.

OTOH, I'd like to be asked. I'd hate for an RA to show up on my doorstep with a new puppy because 15 years ago he ran over my puppy in a drunk driving accident. I might feel better if he spent X hours volunteering at the Humane Society or maybe if I just saw him cry and show empathy for the puppy and me. I wouldn't expect them to be mindreaders.

But I really understand the weariness of them showing up in you life and once again needing something from you. Spouses, parents, adult children, neighbors, and colleagues all over America can sympathize with the exasperated sigh, hands on hips, and the "NOW WHAT?????!!! (I thought I got rid of you a long time ago)" sentiment.

People really are different.