now, this may not be the right place to post this, if it isn't please move it. The guy that 9 stepped me was abused. His father raped him, repeatedly. The siblings that committed suicide one was because of the childhood abuse, the other was because he was gay.

This guy tried to talk to his brother (jimmy, my friend). Jimmy told him that he was a gay queer and that he hated him. Brother committed suicide. Jimmy could never live with himself after that. Also father raped all the boys in the family.

So when I got his apology or 9th step, I believed it, and so did his ex. Jimmy would never have a normal life, we accepted that.

So, not telling anyone what to do, just asking people to let go of expectations.
















t

Unfortunately my EXABF only used that step as an excuse to get back in the door! He always said he was calling to make amends. Sadly I don't truthfully think he ever has worked anything .

Unfortunately sometimes it's only used as manipulation. Unless the actions change along with the amends it means nothing.

Details would probably take up page upon page!

My sister is older than I. I always looked up to her as the smart, witty, funny big sister. I did, do, and always will love her very much. She, it seems, resented me because she always felt I was the favored child--which is funny because I felt the same about her, only I did not harbor the same resentment.

During her using career, my sister was mean, hateful, condescending and made it quite clear that she loathed my existence and wanted nothing to do with me.

There was really nothing she could do to make amends to me except to apologize and allow her continued sobriety to be a living amends. To quote Jane Austen "....she paid off every arrear of civility..." to me in her apology.

My sister is still sober (going on about 15 years now).

Hope this helps!

It should be noted that my amends are for me. If the other person benefits then that is a bonus but my amends are strictly about taking responsibility for my actions. The truth is, I do not have the power to ruin another person's life. A ruined life is a chosen state of mind for the person claiming to have their life be ruined. Especially with regards to living with an alcoholic; that generally is a choice (as opposed to say being made paraplegic from a drunk driving accident). Therefore, I'm not responsible for amending someone else's state of mind or their choices that led to that. My job is to admit where I was wrong and to insure that I no longer live my life that way.

I suspect that someone expecting an apology for attempts to ruin their life would never recognize real amends as they were being delivered.

There seems to be some misconception as to what amends are (in regards to AA/NA recovery).

Yes, an apology is part of the process, but only the beginning. After acknowledging one's part; taking responsibility; apologizing; then comes the true 'amends' part----asking the agrieved party what one can do to 'mend' (fix?) the problem.

(o:
NoelleR

Nonsense: alcoholics ruin the lives of people all the time. My neighbor's daughter and granddaughter was killed by an alcoholic driving drunk. Can't ruin a life much more than that.

Children of alcoholics have ruined lives and can take decades to fix what their parents selfishly destroyed. They have no choice about who they live with or for how long. And it's not just children of alcoholics who are completely defenseless against alkies: but siblings, family members, neighbors, colleagues and bosses.

Siblings and other family members, friends and acquaintances who steal our social security numbers, IDs, and financial data ruin our lives. If it's ever happened to you, you will really feel victimized and violated. It's a nightmare.

We can leave, but very often that doesn't put the hell behind us when vindictive alcoholics make divorces hell for the fun of it and use child custody and child support as tools to harass and control us. They often run tattling to our employers and try to get us fired or ruin our businesses or file false police and CPS reports--and they succeed. Get me arrested or my kids taken away or me fired for no reason but your nasty spite--yes, that's ruining my life.

Alcoholics stalk and beat, and that's another way to ruin lives; the effects of that can last long after the alcoholic is dead.

Alcoholics love to say they aren't hurting anyone but themselves. That's an alcoholic lie. They change of life of everyone who has to deal with them and sometimes even of people they've never even met.

To say that making amends is for the alcoholic, not for the victim (who is actually the real one responsible for whatever the alcoholic did to him) is not only more victimizing but is selfish. At some point alkies really do need to look to the bigger world and see that other human beings exist and it's NOT ALL ABOUT THEM. At some point for recovery to be effective, they need to learn empathy and responsibility, not just for themselves but for OTHERS.

With unrecovered alcoholics it's always, 'me, me, me' and the absolute refusal to see how much damage they cause other people.

False. Time to ReProgramm. Time for a deep and honest search of one's motives and actions. Less Alchemy II; more A.A. Program. It's not all about the A. It's also about the non-A.

From 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of A.A.:

"Steps Eight and Nine are concerned with personal relations. First, we take a look backward and try to discover where we have been at fault; next we make a vigorous attempt to repair the damage we have done; and third, having thus cleaned away the debris of the past, we consider how, with our newfound knowledge of ourselves, we may develop the best possible relations with every human being we know.

***

Let's remember that alcoholics are not the only ones bedeviled by sick emotions. Moreover, it is usually a fact that our behavior when drinking has aggravated the defects of others. We've repeatedly strained the patience of our best friends to a snapping point, and have brought out the very worst in those who didn't think much of us to begin with. In many instances we are really dealing with fellow sufferers, people whose woes we have increased. If we are now about to ask forgiveness for ourselves, why shouldn't we start out by forgiving them, one and all?

***

Some of us, though, tripped over a very different snag. We clung to the claim that when drinking we never hurt anybody but ourselves. Our families didn't suffer, because we always paid the bills and seldom drank at home. Our business associates didn't suffer, because we were usually on the job. Our reputations hadn't suffered, because we were certain few knew of our drinking. Those who did would sometimes assure us that, after all, a lively bender was only a good man's fault. What real harm, therefore, had we done? No more, surely, than we could easily mend with a few casual apologies.

This attitude, of course, is the end result of purposeful forgetting. It is an attitude which can only be changed by a deep and honest search of our motives and actions.

***

While the purpose of making restitution to others is paramount, it is equally necessary that we extricate from an examination of our personal relations every bit of information about ourselves and
our fundamental difficulties that we can.

***

We needn't wallow in excessive remorse before those we harmed, but amends at this level should be forthright and generous.

***

Above all, we should try to be absolutely sure that we are not delaying because we are afraid. For the readiness to take the full consequences of our past acts, and to take responsibility for the well-being of others at the same time, is the very spirit of Step Nine." (Emphasis added.)

:c029: Check out the Big Book, at pages 76-84 too. :c029:

The choices that the rest of us affected by alcoholism & addiction are left with are limited ones ... ones limited by the harms done by the As.

I have received amends and I given amends. I am in AA and NA.

The first amends I made was to my mom. I sat down with pages of things I needed to make amends for. I asked how I can make all the wrongs I did right with her. She was crying so hard she couldn't talk at first. We just cried and held each other. Finally she said all I had to do was live clean and sober, take care of my kids, and do the right things. I offered to pay her back the money I stole and the money she used to put me in rehab at the age of 14. She said the money for rehab was needed and I didn't owe her any money. It has been years and I still find ways to give her money. I will buy her something that she wants, but won't buy for herself.

As receiving amends. I got one by my brother. I had a hard time when he said how can I make it right. I wasn't sure how to answer. I just said stay clean and sober. That lasted 7 years. He is back to drinking and I am raising his girl.

I know some amends are hard to decide if they should be made or not. It says except when to do so would harm others. I had a hard time deciding if I should make amends to my ex boyfriend. I didn't want to bring him more harm by bringing up the past. I talked to my sponsor and was told you will know when the time is right. I got that chance. It went really well.

I know for me making the amends is so much easier than receiving the amends.

Strangely enough, I live and have lived with alcoholic family members and as a result of my journeys through the steps I've accepted that my outlook on my life is my responsibility and have ceased holding them responsible for it; all without having received formal amends from any of them.

Just because THEY didn't give you formal amends, doesn't mean that YOU are relieved from making amends to them.

From the 12 Steps & 12 Traditions of A.A. regarding what one must face in Step Eight:

"These obstacles, however, are very real. The first, and one of the most difficult, has to do with forgiveness. The moment we ponder a twisted or broken relationship with another person, our emotions go on the defensive. To escape looking at the wrongs we have done another, we resentfully focus on the wrong he has done us. This is especially true if he has, in fact, behaved badly at all. Triumphantly we seize upon his misbehavior as the perfect excuse for minimizing or forgetting our own."

That's what it sounds like to me. But you can always ask your sponsor, check with your HP or read up on it in some program literature.

I never stated that I was absolved from making amends. I am absolutely certain that making amends, directly and in living, is imperative to my sobriety both chemical and spiritual.

My contention is that my classification of the state of my life is entirely independent of other people's behavior and especially with regards to their making amends to me. That classification is based solely on my attitude and my ability to let go of my idea of how it should be, accept how it is and trust that it is according to the greater good for myself and those related to me.

Even if I were made paraplegic or if my child were killed by an alcoholic's actions it remains my choice and my responsibility for classifying my life as "ruined" or not. No one gets to do that for me unless I let them.

Same here. I know better than to expect or wait for anything from an addict.

But...the amends properly done would mean a lot just the same. Just because someone would like amends made does not mean they have turned over responsibility for themselves and their emotional, physical or financial well being to the alkie.

My alkies have a debt to me whether they want to ever own up to it or not. I'm not waiting on payment, but the debt still stands, it was not erased by their moral bankruptcy. No matter how you slice it, I'm taking responsibility for my portion AND their portion as well.

Ooooh, you've hit the nail on the head. And if it's too close to the time of the hurt, mere words won't do anything.
In my case, unless enough time had passed, I would have wanted him to change his behavior and start doing a living amends first - and the words could follow later, once I trusted them because they'd match the actions.
If enough time had passed, on the other hand, words would have been fine if they were not followed up by an attempt to stick his foot in the door and come barreling in again.

That said, I'll never get an amends, as he died from cancer not quite a year ago.
I still believe it was drinking related, simply because he was too busy drinking to take care of his health until it was too late. But it is what it is.

I just had a "friend" from Al-Anon attempt to tell me via voicemail that she was doing a 9th step to apologize for her behavior last week. The problem is that all of her "I'm sorry" statements were followed immediately by "BUT." In addition, she worked her way up to five voicemails a day, all of them approximately 3 minutes long, accelerating after I told her I needed space to think about things.

I told her I was highly triggered by the repeat phone calls, because of my experiences with XABF, and what does she do? She leaves me two more voicemails last night and keeps calling incessantly. I finally blocked her from calling, and still got 6 more phone calls, an email, and three text messages, all claiming that she respects me and values my friendship.

Words, just words. Her actions are the same ones XABF used to try and keep me in line. He's more polite about it, but just as manipulative. My favorite part was when she started going into how I apparently always act like I'm smarter than she is but she doesn't take offense because that's who I am. She also started going in about how she'll pray for me and she realizes now that it's my issue and has nothing to do with her (except that it does have a lot to do with her overbearing personality the last two months, and her refusal to believe "No is a complete sentence" unless she's the one who said the "No").
It reminds me of the time that XABF cornered me, blamed all the failures of the relationship on me, and then told me that he was willing to give me one last chance because he was such a nice guy. No thanks.
I was hoping we could patch things up, after taking some time to calm down and breathe, but she hasn't done that

For me, actions are important. If a trust is broken I'm only listening to words if there are actions prior to the words showing me that they are well-intentioned. I believe the words are critical at the right time, but if they're said before actions or time for healing then they hurt more than they help.

What purpose is served by holding onto the notion that a debt remains outstanding?

[QUOTE=Programmatic;3640145No one gets to do that for me unless I let them.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread again because it is becoming an argument, but I appreciate the statement above, thanks programmatic. It's exactly the point I was trying to make several pages prior.

I do believe we are responsible for our own lives, and it is truly our perspectives and how much we choose to own our own power that determines whether or not our lives are ruined by someone else's actions.

I was married to an alcoholic. It wasn't pleasant, nor was it anything resembling what I thought it was going to be. But it didn't ruin my life, unless I let it and think of it that way. That's where I have control over it all - and I refuse to view my life as having been ruined by someone else. Anyone else for that matter. No one has that kind of power over me.

Amends or not, I am grateful for the experiences I have had, because I learned a lot throughout that I may not have learned otherwise. Things like being an angry person isn't much fun. Hanging onto resentments gets me nowhere fast. That this life is precious - it is all I have, and I intend to make the most of it. And the understanding that these are people we are b*tching about , people who make their own mistakes and are often self-centered and more often, simply aren't in a place to be self-aware enough to see their actions hurt other people. They are sick people. The world is full of them. It is my choice to allow them influence over my life or not. I can have compassion without interference. I can love these people without entangling myself with their dysfunction.

Really, in the end, I didn't need amends. I needed him to be a kind of person that he wasn't. That was all that mattered. I know my truth. I don't need him to validate that for me. And sometimes, I think the 9th step becomes that for many people - being validated. But instead of looking for others for that - find it in yourself. It is much more meaningful that way, anyway.

TWWALTR,
~T

I was. It was gratifying and gave me back some self esteem but I was not able to step back from that and grow properly from it. It took many years to get it in perspective and to accept having to create personal boundaries and believe in them. I would never take an amends and run happily off with it. I think the benefit goes to the the person making amends and that they deserve to be whole every bit as much as the victim does.

I believe that the topic of receiving amends gets very close to some well concealed defects amongst those of us who have been affected by another person's drinking.

The idea that I am owed amends is counter intuitive to much of what my program teaches me. The idea that another person's amends will somehow give me relief predisposes of my responsibility for my own pain.

If I knowingly stand to gain from another's amends then I have chosen to put my fullest experience on hold subject to another person's ability to provide it for me. I have found that in the meantime I cultivate what amounts to a sense of superiority which is a false benefit in terms of my recovery.

This has been such a thought provoking thread.

If there is a debt there just is - that is a fact. There is no purpose served in letting it hold me back but just because I let go of any expectation that it will be repayed doesn't mean it isn't there.

It is easy when it is about money because we can actually repay money any time. The past can't be undone when it comes to other things. History can not be re-written so, for me, I need to let that go and I feel like I have.

I still don't want to be within a country mile of an amends made at me for personal benifit unless it is on the heels of an established new history. I don't see how anyone can make an amends in the first year unless it is something like re-paying money.

Me and my children were abandoned long before I divorced him. We were abandoned emotionally, financially, spiritually. The only way to make an amends for that is to quit abandoning us. He might be very sorry, very regertful, but until he starts writing a new history it isn't worth the breath used to say the words. I have let it go in order to find my own sense of peace and happiness but I'm no longer willing to stand still and absorb his feelings so that he is relieved of them. That is what I did best but I'm all done. That is how I am making sure he isn't ruining my life. ;)

I've had two previous, non-serious, relationships with addicts before I got married. I felt I was wronged in those relationships but I haven't seen or spoken to them in years and years. Haven't even thought of this until this thread. I'm trying to imagine if they called up and made an amends for what I feel was a wrong on their part in how I was treated. I think I'd be fine with it. There is no living history with those men. No 'today'. There will always be a 'today' with my ex because we share children. We create a history, one way or another, every day.