|
Originally Posted by passionfruit
(Post 2887375)
I told my AH: " I can see you now! I can really see you! No more magic tricks or secret cloaks to hide the real you!!" |
Chapter 4 The Nature of Abusive Thinking - The Types of Abusive Men I feel so bad for him; he's had a really hard life. I'm lucky to be with him; he could get any woman he wants. I'm really scared of what he might do to me some day. I shouldn't argue with him because I just come out feeling like an idiot. He's very sensitive. I shouldn't complain so much; he's doing the best he can. He says the reason he cheats on me so much is that he's a sex addict. The qualities that make up an abusive man are like the ingredients in a recipe: the basics are always present but the relative amounts very greatly. The sections below describe each style of man while he is being abusive. ..don't mean he is like that all the time. In fact many men in the categories below can turn kind and loving at any moment and stay in that mode for days, weeks or even months. The Demand Man The central attitudes driving the Demand Man are:
Mr Right The central attitudes driving Mr Right are:
The Water Torturer The central attitudes driving the Water Torturer are:
The Drill Sergeant The central attitudes driving the Drill Sergeant are:
Mr Sensitive The central attitudes driving Mr Sensitive are:
The Player The central attitudes driving The Player are:
Rambo The central attitudes driving Rambo are:
The Victim The central attitudes driving The Victim are:
The Terrorist The central attitudes driving The Terrorist are:
The mentally ill or addicted abuser This last category is not actually separate from the others... Even when mental illness or addiction is a factor, it is not the cause of a man's abuse of his partner but it can contribute to the severity of his problem and his resistance to change. ... likely follow the pattern of one of the nine styles described above. In addition, the following attitudes tend to be present:
Key points to remember:
|
I see aspects of XAH in almost all of these 9 categories. mainly though he shows as: a touch of The Demand Man, a little of Mr Right, a lot of The Water Torturer and Mr Sensitive and even more so The Victim. He is the eternal victim...all the more so because of his alcoholism. |
Sorry late to the game, thought it was still about chap one - lesson #1 checking into things. As I read ppl responses I cannot help but fully related to the experience of living with someone who has these behaviors. My AH used the excuse of being abused also. I know not all ppl abused become abusers so I knew there was more to this. But I think that in the beginning things are different - at least I was treated different. It was only through time and daily living under the same roof that it all fell apart. I too feel into many of the behaviors others report of themselves except for feeling that it had anything to do with me. I became aware quiet early that the problem was alcohol. I say this to make a point. With this difference in my thinking I still made many of the same errors and experienced many of the same behaviors from my AH. Even sober, AH made progress but many of the same thinking continued it just wasn't fueled by alcohol. I think that made all the difference for me. I thought if the alcohol wasn't there, he would process his problems and achieve some resolution and put it all behind him. What I saw is that he still couldn't do that - his faulty thinking prevented him from being able to see that it could be better and so he continued to choose alcohol and isolation as companions in life. This material only solidifies what I learned and confirms my choices. There are times I begin to feel sorry for his limited view of life and the choices that he made without really thinking any differently. I then have to pull myself back and let him go. I and everyone else had limitations and worked hard to overcome them - he has the same option and keeps making the same choices. I am making new ones. |
Wow...these last couple of chapters are SO tough...you girls are right. It's easy for me to get caught up in the "why was I so stupid?" loop...but isn't that just MORE abuse? Now I'm abusing myself?? No. This is where I draw the line. This is The Day where I begin to nurture and love myself...that scared child locked in a dark room, that young wife finding her husband's hands around her neck, the confused and lonely single mom searching for meaning, and the woman I am now who is finally ready to say: "ENOUGH!!!" I am good enough and I will not accept disrespect EVER again in my life. Finally. I am here. |
Ah, the types of abusive men. The previous chapters taught me that yes, I wasn't crazy, I really was being verbally abused. This one taught me that it wasn't just the alcohol, and not because of all the statements that alcohol doesn't cause it, but because I could identify "sober XABF" and "drunk XABF" in the different abusive categories. He was different when he was drinking, but the abusive behavior didn't stop when he stopped drinking, it just changed. The Demand Man I put stars around this section, because this one is very much XABF. I made my own notations here - a lot of them. If your needs ever conflict with his {or his wants}, he is furious. At these times he attacks you as self-centered or inflexible, turning reality on its head with statements such as "All you care about is yourself!" ... At the same time, the Demand Man is likely to be furious if anything is demanded of HIM. Not only are you not supposed to demand any favors, you aren't even supposed to ask him to take care of his own obligations. {Then he explains away why he can't/won't/didn't do it - "You know I have bad lungs, it could kill me!" Doing laundry never killed anyone.} ... He keeps twisting things around backward in these ways, so that any effort you make to discuss your needs or his responsibilities switches abruptly to being about HIS needs and YOUR responsibilities. ... {XABF did not allow me to have other friendships, and blamed me when I didn't have them, although he did claim to support me in furthering my career - but then sabotaged it by demanding I spend all my time working on his projects instead of my own work. He was also always telling me, "You know I can't take care of myself - I'm codependent!" as if it were a terminal disuease that could never be cured.} This was worse when he was drunk, but it was there when he was sober, too - just more subtle. Mr. Right XABF had a lot of this in him, as well, although I did not mark it up as much as the "Demand Man" one. He did brush aside my opinions on everything that affected the both of us. When it would make his life easier, though, he was always asking how I felt about things, and always telling me that I had a lot of insight into other people - "women's intuition" he called it - and insisted that I use it to help him. He did feel like I was his student and he was the teacher, then constantly complaining that he wanted to be my partner and not my father. I guess this was so I couldn't tell him that I felt like his mother, not his partner. We were always getting into money arguments, and he always complained that he wanted it so we had to do it. He'd "compromise" by taking something else expensive out of the budget, then use that "new found money" over and over and over again to justify things. "We canceled our $150 restaurant so we can afford to go to the diner tonight." "I can get this $90 shirt because we canceled the restaurant." "Yes, well, we can buy this $100 membership because we canceled the restaurant." "I used our restaurant money to buy us tickets to the theater this weekend." "It doesn't matter that we skipped our theater show, because we canceled the restaurant so we got that money back." Ad nauseum. He had a lot of favorite phrases, including "You're a lot smarter than me, you should have known!" Yet when I tried to tell him hours previous to the incident, he'd brush me off at not knowing anything, and tell me that his granddaughter was smarter than me, and what did I know. When I would protest all his yelling at me, he's informed me "I yelled at my daughter all the time, and look how she turned out! She's a successful lawyer! She makes more in a month than you do in a year!" Then my favorite, when he feels I'm not backing him up enough... "There are women whose husbands are in prison for murder but they stick by them and visit EVERY DAY. I'm just trying to help you, and you want to leave!" And of course, whenever I am asked a question by someone and he is around, he has to answer for me. "No, she doesn't want anything to drink." "Yes, she had a great time." This one was worse when he was sober than when he was drunk. The Water Torturer I do not think XABF did this one to me. Either that, or he was so forceful with the other abusive types, that this one was a relief when he used it. I don't know - I didn't identify with much of this section, although years down the line I might. The Drill Sergeant Another one with lots of stars. This one got worst when he moved himself in, although it was always there, just hidden since we lived more than an hour away from each other. He isolated me from my friends, insisted we had to be together 100% of the time, we had to go to bed at the same time, he picked out what clothing I should wear, what sorts of fantasies I should have, how much time at work I had to spend catering to his needs (when I couldn't even get paid for them!), he drove me to work and home again, any suggestion I made to the contrary was a cause for him to blow up at me. He wouldn't even let me go to Al-Anon! She feels like a little girl living with a tyrannical father, with no more freedom than an eight-year-old would have. Fortunately for me he did not turn violent when I hit my bottom, although he had starting throwing things, he hadn't come after me - with a few exceptions, which are minor compared to what would have happened. My biggest note in this chapter: ...I am very fortunate I acted when I did... This was again worse when he was drunk, although sober he was very controlling, and frequently used any efforts of mine to have a life as a reason to drink. Mr. Sensitive This one only popped up when he was sober. Mr. Sensitive appears to be the diametric opposite of the Drill Sergeant. He is soft-spoken, gentle, and supportive - when he isn't being abusive. I circled "Drill Sergeant" and wrote "How can he be both???" This section juxtaposed with the "Drill Sergeant" one are what started to convince me that alcohol was not the only problem. Often he has participated extensively in therapy or twelve-step programs, or reads all the big self-help books, so speaks the language of popular psychology and introspection. This is XABF again, perfectly. He used to go to ACOA meetings due to his father's drinking, he's read many of the books including "Codependent No More," he's got his copy of the Big Book and the Recovery Bible, and he is ready to bend them to his will. 1. You seem to be hurting his feelings constantly, though you aren't sure why, and he expects your attention to be focused endlessly on his emotional injuries. ... He'll go on and on about it, expecting you to grovel as if you had treated him with profound cruelty. (Notice the twist here: This is just what an abuser accuses his partner of doing to HIM, when all she is really looking for is a heartfelt "I'm sorry." 2. When YOUR feelings are hurt, on the other hand, he will insist on brushing over it quickly. He may give you a stream of popular psychology language... to substitute for genuine support for your feelings, especially if you are upset about something HE did. None of these philosophies applies when you upset him, however. 3. With the passing of time, he increasingly casts the blame on you for anything he is dissatisfied with in his own life; your burden of guilt keeps growing. 4. He starts to exhibit a mean side that no one else ever sees and may even become threatening or intimidating. His favorite phrases also included "Can't you see how much you hurt me?" and "It's all your fault!" He always blamed my co-dependence, my parents, anything related to me he could thing of blaming. The "gentle man" style of abuser tends to be highly self-centered and demanding of emotional catering. He may not be the man who has a fit because dinner is late but rather erupts because of some way his partner failed to sacrifice her own needs or interests to keep him content. He plays up how fragile he is [and uses his health, too!] to divert attention from the swath of destruction he leaves behind him. The Player This isn't really him. He does flirt with waitresses and cashiers, but he's always preaching about how "cheating is the unforgivable sin" (and includes himself in that opinion). I do see how he is incapable of taking women seriously as human beings, and I do see how he could have turned into this at some point if the drinking did not steal his good looks, but he never got the chance. (Am I a bad person for smiling when I wrote that last bit?) Rambo Not him, either. He is the "city neighborhood" definition of a tough guy - doesn't not intimidated easily, and not afraid to pick a fight, but much more emphasis on emotional mindgames than muscles. He was always talking about how his father was the golden gloves champion, so he had to learn to fight at an early age because his father frequently got physical in the middle of the night when he was tanked up, but he seemed to take great pride in not following in that path. The Victim Ah, Mister Poor Me, here's your chapter! He was like this, drunk or sober. In the beginning he applied it only to other people; later he added my "wrongs against him" to his list. He was always talking about how evil his ex-wife was, how she ruined his life because she wanted to go out clubbing all night, how many different men she slept with in front of "his" kids after they separated, how she changed the locks when he moved out for a week, etc, etc. I never really hated her, but I will confess I did believe his side of the story. I should have noticed when he started saying things like "But God got back at her - she used to be gorgeous, even prettier than my daughter, but now she's fat and ugly." Come to think of it, I should have noticed when he started talking about how his daughter's legs were the prettiest legs in the world - saying it once or twice might be considered a compliment, but constantly comparing my legs to hers is kinda sick, isn't it? But that's a different story. The Victim is highly self-centered in relationships. Everything seems to revolve around his wounds, and he keeps himself at the center of attention. ... He seems forever to be telling you: "You don't understand me, you don't appreciate me, you hold my mistakes over my head." Yet you sense that the dynamic is actually the other way around. ... This recurring inversion of reality is similar to what happens with Mr. Sensitive, but without the introspective psychology, gentle man, or recovering alcoholic routine. This was him while drunker. Everything is someone else's fault. He even blamed his divorce on the women's liberation movement. This I especially identified with: If you are involved with the Victim and want to escape his abuse, you may find that you feel guilty toward HIM, despite his treatment of you, and have difficulty ending the relationship as a result. You may feel that because his life has been so hard, you are reluctant to add to his pain by abandoning him. You may worry that he won't take care of himself if you leave, that he will wither away from depression, won't eat or sleep, or might even try to kill himself. The Victim knows how to present himself as helpless and pathetic so that you will find it harder to take your own life back. There is never a "good time" to leave, is there? But there is a "best time" - as soon as possible! Reading this book again makes me grateful I got out - and grateful he was in rehab, because I wouldn't have been "allowed" to read it otherwise. The Terrorist This one really wasn't him either, except for the "both highly controlling and extremely demanding" parts. He may have ended up here, eventually, especially as the alcohol progressed - I don't know. I do know that he wasn't here yet, and that I am grateful for that. The Mentally Ill or Addicted Abuser ...it can contribute to the severity of his problems and his resistance to change. I did underline a lot under the narcissistic section, about how he relates everything to himself even if it has nothing to do with him, being outraged with anyone criticizing especially regarding being generous, etc... But while he's drinking, who knows what's going on? Points to Remember I drew boxes and stars and tons of other stuff around the last paragraph. An abuser of any type can have days when he turns loving, attentive, and thoughtful. At these times, you may feel that his problem has finally gone away and that the relationship will return to its rosy beginning. However, abuse always comes back eventually unless the abuser has dealt with his abusiveness. This is the most important thing I had to remember, or I would have stayed perpetually, always expecting the "good old days". |
StarCat - I don't know how you survived this with your sanity intact as you have. (((Hugs))) |
Originally Posted by tjp613
(Post 2888122)
StarCat - I don't know how you survived this with your sanity intact as you have. (((Hugs))) To be honest, I am not sure, either. I will say, some of the weekends and giant trips were nice. We went all over, and I learned a ton about all sorts of things. But even that started to go south - our annual trip to New England this past summer, we skipped half of the planned events while I drove him to the next hotel so he could sleep on the floor there, too. He was drunk half the time. I will say I have learned a lot from this whole experience. The biggest thing I have learned is that I am a lot stronger than I thought I was, and much stronger than everyone always told me I was. Imagine that? |
Wow....I need to reread this about 10 times just to digest it. My XAH was very much like my Dad in the abuse department but he wasn't as bad so it looked better than my childhood--- for awhile. For me I think the abuse was progressive just like the substance abuse. This is some heavy stuff. |
Originally Posted by Carol Star
(Post 2888601)
For me I think the abuse was progressive just like the substance abuse. |
Originally Posted by Kassie2
(Post 2887908)
But I think that in the beginning things are different - at least I was treated different. It was only through time and daily living under the same roof that it all fell apart Turned out to be a scary hostage situation. Some days are hard but I am still grateful, deep down, I no longer sleep with someone like that. Because they don't change (at least not magically...). I torture myself with the thought that XABF "might have changed" and now is Prince Charming. But no. Its the same old, same old... one day this will really sink in. |
Chapter 5 The Abusive Man in Relationships - How Abuse Begins I don't understand what's gone wrong. We used to be so close. I don't know if there's something wrong with him or if it's me. He really cares for me. He wants to spend every second together. My friends complain that they never see me any more. I'm going to quote a number of relevant passages from this chapter (I'm worried that I'm quoting so much I may be in breech of copyright!): The idyllic opening is part of almost every abusive relationship. How else would an abuser have a partner? Women aren't stupid. ...There has to be a hook. Very few women hate themselves so thoroughly that they will get involved with a man who is rotten from the very start - although they may feel terrible about themselves later, once the abuser has had time to destroy their self image step by step. ...Does he have it all planned out? Is he deliberately hooking her emotionally so he can be cruel to her later? The answer is usually no. ...if he isn't laying plans to hurt her, what is going on in his mind? First, he is gazing longingly at the image he holds of the future, where the woman meets all of his needs, is beautiful and sexy at all times of the day and night, has no needs of her own and is in awe of his brilliance and charm. He desires a woman who will cater to him and ever complain about anything he does or darken his day with frustrations and happiness about her own life. The abusive man doesn't expose these self-focused fantasies to his new partner. In fact, he is largely unaware of them himself. So she has no way of knowing that he is looking more for a personal caretaker than for a partner. Abuse is not his goal but control is and he finds himself using abuse to gain the control he feels he has the right to. An abuser is neither a monster nor a victim. An abuser is a human being, not an evil monster, but he has a profoundly complex and destructive problem that should not be underestimated. The common view of abusive men as evil, calculating brutes can make it difficult for a woman to recognise her partner's problem. She doesn't realise he can have ... positive qualities and still have an abuse problem. At the other end of the spectrum we have an equally common - and equally misleading - view of abusers:the abuser as a man whose gentle humanity is just barely hidden under his abusive surface and who can be transformed by love, compassion and insight. The painful reality is that bringing about change in abusers is difficult. Yet women are often pressured...to 'give him a chance to change' and 'have a little faith in people'. An abuser's behaviour is primarily conscious - he acts deliberately rather than by accident or by losing control of himself - but the underlying thinking that drives his behaviour is largely not conscious. An abuser learns manipulative and controlling behaviour from several sources, including key role models, peers and pervasive cultural messages...By the time he reaches adulthood, he has integrated manipulative behaviour to such a deep level that he acts largely on automatic. He knows what he is doing but not necessarily why. Early warning signs
No single one of the warning signs above is a sure sign of an abusive man, with the exception of physical intimidation. Physical intimidation:
...be aware that when an abuser begins his slide into abuse, he believes you are the one who is changing. His perceptions work this way because he feels so justified in his actions that he can't imagine the problem might be with him. All he notices is that you don't seem to be living up to his image of the perfect, all-giving, deferential woman. When is it abuse? ...abuse can sneak up on a woman, beginning with subtle control or disrespect that gains intensity over time... The lines where subtler kinds of mistreatment end and abuse begins include the following actions:
What if he's sorry? The good news is that the remorse is often genuine, the bad news is that it rarely helps....The most regretful are sometimes the most self-centred, lamenting above all the injury they've done to their own self image. The feel ashamed of having behaved like cruel dictators and want to revert quickly to the role of benign dictators, as if that somehow makes them much better people. Key Points to remember:
|
I can't comment right now on how I lived. Just posting a summary of the main points in each chapter is really difficult and painful. I'll try sharing something later. I keep remembering things that had happened that I had forgotten about. How could I forget so much? This stuff is really hard. Thank you all for sharing - it is really helping me get through this. I really appreciate it! |
I think one has to get sucked in slowly - step by step. If at any one point in time I would have anticipated the next argument - the next demand- the next unreasonable request - the next expectations - the next lapse of judgement and so on... I would have ended this earlier. I feel like it was the chinese water torture trick where each time I thought he went as far as he could go. How he continued to come up new demands and expectations I can't even begin to imagine. Each one being greater than the last. It took time for me to realize that it would not stop - nothing was ever enough for him. I couldn't please him or give him anything that would have settled things once and for all. And so I was glad that I found a point where I said NO! I worried what the fallout would be but gave up caring. Sometimes I don't think he even knew what he was doing or why he was like that? But these were not questions he asked for very long or really wanted answered. I could have made this easy for him and at times we talked about it. Didn't stick. Just one more reason to be angry at me and rejecting. His therapist could have made this easy but he couldn't listen beyond the words which described what my problems were. All he heard was that his problems were my fault. If only I would just get my stuff together and stop getting in his way and causing him all these problems! Never mind that he had adequate reasons to feel the way he did from his past. But why take it out on someone who just wanted what was best for him? It was hard for me to not want to see him as either a monster or a victim because of how he talked to me and took advantage of me. The hard part was realizing in therapy that he really had these twisted beliefs that he thought made sense. I was actually being taught how to handle him so that he would not hear me rejecting or punishing him. Forget asking that things make normal sense. What hurt me the most was that I grew up in abuse, thought I would never allow another person to treat me this way. But I had to leave my first marriage because - yep I did it again. For sure I wouldn't have done a second marriage - but yep I did. It is hard to believe I made these choices. The warning signs can be more subtle that I thought and time is always on their side or so it seems. Everyone sees only their good side and I feel they shake heads at me - what is her problem. BW - this stuff used to get to me much more before i started my recovery work. I understand more now about I was affected by my family and while I made these choices - I have to give myself credit for finding clarity while in the situation and having courage to leave it. My hope as always is that I will not repeat this pattern again with my HP help. Thanks for reading. |
((((Kassie and Bookwyrm)))) This chapter is difficult, and contains some of the material I never thought I'd put on this forum. I will take a stab at it - tomorrow. It is late tonight, and I am still reeling from his unexpected visit yesterday. Writing about this chapter tomorrow will be therapeutic and painful all at once. |
My story When I first met XAH we were both so young. He was funny and interested in me, he had a whole vulnerable vibe going on that was irresistible. He needed me, I was the one he could trust and talk to. I was special. We had a lot of fun. He became my best friend and I was his. We shared secrets and promises. Things moved so very fast and we were living together after just 9 months of meeting. I've seen that smiling, shy, loving man on and off over the years but less and less as the years went by. I miss him. I wonder if he really existed sometimes or if I loved his potential. Looking back, I can see that he started with small steps. He would say what I wanted to hear but his actions never matched up. When money was tight and bills weren't paid, it became my fault although the overall finances weren't in my control. He started to chip away at my self confidence. He became ashamed to be seen with me in the street - because of my weight, although, at the time, I was the same weight as when I met him. I wasn't allowed to to be 'cheeky' because it hurt him. I couldn't make fun of him because he felt wounded. And I tried to change for him. The more I tried to twist into the shape he wanted, the less happy he seemed and the more I started to slip into depression. He used to wake me late at night because he wanted to talk - usually after a few beers. He would get angry because I would never want to talk when he was 'ready' to talk. Sleep deprivation didn't help my depression. I lost my sex drive - sex became a control thing with him. Pressuring me into sex, I just closed my eyes and pretended I was elsewhere. Some nights I would wake up to find him having sex... His drinking escalated and we had huge blow up fights about it. He finally started hitting me to 'get me to shut up', because I 'wasn't listening'. It was my fault, somehow - after all I pushed him back. After 5 years living together, we split. Did I dance with joy? Did I learn to live? Nope, I just walked around feeling numb. I missed him with a visceral ache. I never really broke free of him. I didn't get counselling. I didn't find Al Anon. I had no-one to talk to and no support, all the while struggling with my depression. I didn't go no contact. The internet was in its infancy at that point so no helpful forums for me! He wanted to be 'friends' and we tried that. It lasted a whole year until we started sleeping together. To me it felt inevitable. He was my soul-mate after all! He had 'changed'. His anger had gone. And it had. He had learned a whole new way of getting what he needed - control - in more subtle ways. We had fun again. He wasn't the shy, vulnerable boy I had first met though. He was more confident, self assured and more caring. He wanted to take care of me in a way he hadn't before. I was bowled over! He moved in with me pretty quickly. And that was us. His drinking quietly escalated. My weight ballooned and I struggled on and off with depression. He would manipulate me and play mind games with me - not that I saw it at the time. I thought I was losing my memory because of the depression - I really thought my short term memory was so bad that I worried about Alzheimers (a relative was diagnosed with this during this time). I 'forgot' things he had told me and 'misremembered' conversations that didn't happen. I took on more and more of the responsibilities of running a house that he passed on to me. I kept telling him I wasn't his mum but it was turning out like that!! He taught me that I was lazy. That I was a bad driver (at one point I was scared to drive until I decided to ignore what he was saying - he doesn't even have a driving license!). He would question even the simplest decision I made - even if it didn't affect him - just to make sure I was making the 'right one'. 11 years after we first met we got married. I didn't want to get married (I never have, even as a kid) but finally agreed to it to try and help him feel more secure. This was supposed to help him stop drinking. Not that it worked. After we got married be began to take me for granted. He started to sneer at me - I disgusted him. I was getting old. I wasn't funny any more, I wasn't fun. I was turning into his mum. When I was ill and couldn't move, he just looked at me with a flat and evil look. I realised I couldn't rely on him especially if I was seriously ill. He controlled so much in my life and I don't remember how or when he took over. When did it become OK for me to go upstairs and watch TV on a small TV in the bedroom when I wanted to see my programs? I still don't watch much TV! When did it become OK for me not to read when he was in the same room? When did I agree to spend all of my time away from work with him unless he was going out with his friends? When did I become the one to watch every penny while he bought what he pleased? Why did I get out of my bed on my days off to drive him to his work? When was it OK for me to just listen to his day and keep quiet about mine? When did my job not matter? It seemed that the more money I earned, the less I was 'allowed' to talk about it. I still can't put my finger on all the methods he used. The victim was one of his favourites - but when did his woes become so much more important than mine? He would deny that he was angry, when he obviously was, or that something was up. He would give insincere apologies and demand I accept them. He would just flat out deny things - and I would believe him over myself! It wasn't all miserable - we did have fun now and then but the fun slowly drained out of our life together. I finally got some counselling for my depression. I was miserably unhappy and had been for years. It was during these sessions that my counsellor asked me if I had ever thought of leaving him. You know, in all that time it had never crossed my mind? That after I took him back, that was it for me - we were soul mates after all! I am eternally grateful to my counsellor. She was amazing and gave me the ability to find my own strength and to start thinking again. I began to take control of things. And hell happened!!! But that was the end of my marriage and fuel for a later chapter I think. I feel that I spent a lot of my marriage sleepwalking - oblivious to things going on around me. I could go on but I think I will call it a night for now. I've vomited enough yuckkiness for one post! |
I feel strangley emotionless about the last post. I was wound up and upset writing about the chapter but writing about myself last night, I was distanced. I'm worried I'm still not in touch with my emotions. Its like, when they get too strong, I just cut out (and eat lots of chocolate). Its odd. I know I'm safe now to let things out, I just can't... |
(((BW))) I think when I first said things aloud I felt distant also. It is a step forward. Remember, we survived these situations by distancing from our emotions and reason at the time. It takes practice and safety and support to allow them to come forward. The emotions will come. If there is someone to tell these things in person it might help support you with the feelings. I found the emotions to come slowly some of the time and sometimes out of the blue so to speak. It also helps me to chat with others who have the same experience to validate the experience and emotions. You are a survivor and now courageous to speak out loud! Then take a break and do something for yourself. |
(((BW))) Bookwyrm, Thank you so much for posting your story. I do understand the feeling with the difficult/absent emotions - I have the same problem too often, I think it's because of the coping mechanisms I used to survive. I learned to shut out my feelings, because they got in the way. Reading your story, so much of it seems the same to me... I suppose I have delayed long enough, it is time to post mine. Thank you for being brave enough to go first. I met XABF at work... Actually, he was the person who hired me, as an intern. I ended up staying to get the assistance to pay for the rest of my degree, and about two and a half years later I was transferred to work directly with him. He was a really great mentor. I learned so much from him, and while I'm sure looking back that a lot of that had to do with me doing things he didn't want to do, or stroking his ego because I was his "really smart intern," I don't regret that time at all. We would work on giant projects together, and take extended lunches driving into the city (he usually insisted on buying), before coming back and working really late without noticing the time. We did things outside work, with a group we both belong to, and we ended up having dinner just the two of us three times during that period - once after a museum trip with the team (everyone else left after the museum), once after the zoo (the person we were going with decided not to go), and then once for my graduation (he planned this to be just the two of us). When I got my degree, I was transferred to a different job in the same department, no longer working in the same building as him. I hated my new job, it was boring and depressing and my lead man was the sort that will take all the credit for everything you do but not help you with any of it. XABF helped me a lot during that time period, and shortly after that we started going out on weekends. In my mind it started slow - we'd spend the day at the mall, or the zoo, once a weekend - but now that I'm looking back it wasn't so slow at all. I met members of his family very very early on in the relationship. Back then, he was always telling me I needed to take better care of my health (I only weighed 110 pounds, but apparently my legs weren't nice enough), I needed to wear makeup (he insisted I wear makeup, but never liked how I put it on, we'd go out for a whole day but he always wanted the really heavy fancy evening makeup), and I needed to learn how to not talk so much. He phrased it as helping me learn to be better at my job, and learn how to be an adult, and take care of myself, and all these other things that sounded good. He was drinking during the beginning of our relationship, but I didn't know it at the time. He'd just stop for a shot in the morning, maybe a shot around lunch time. He did have hangovers, because he used to insist that I massage the back of his neck - I didn't realize that's what that meant until he stopped drinking for awhile, and stopped wanting those massages. His requests came back once he started drinking heavily again. He was so controlling, and while I only saw the worst of it in the last six months (because he moved into my apartment - even though I only said he could stay there weekends), I am seeing hints of it from early on. After we were dating for a couple months he took his car to get inspection, and it needed a new battery. It was Sunday, we weren't going to see each other that day, and I went to church that morning. I came out and turned my cell phone on to ten angry voice mail messages about how I'm never there when he needs me and he needed me to pick him up and take him somewhere when they were changing his battery and how if he had a girlfriend who cared about him he wouldn't have had to be alone. Never mind that he was an hour away, and I didn't know how to get there, and my phone was only off for an hour - I wasn't there when he decided he wanted me, and that was that. I moved to an apartment, still about an hour from where he lived, and he decided to decorate it for me. I did put in my say about a lot of things, and most of it felt like I had input (I wanted a sofabed because it was a studio apartment, I wanted fiesta ware for the kitchen, we picked out everything else together) - except for the walls. He decided everything that would go on the walls, and I just backed off and stopped arguing. He'd insist I call him when I got home, and wouldn't go into his house until I did. I used to lie and say I was home when I really wasn't, so he'd stop asking, or I'd go home, then go out again to go shopping. Then he insisted we talk on the cell phones the whole drive home, and looking back I now realize that mornings driving into work were my favorite times because of the quiet. Weekends he decided I had to stay at his mother's the whole weekend. (He lived there too). Weekends we did all sorts of things, took roadtrips everywhere, ate at really expensive restaurants, stayed in hotels, we were busy from morning until night and then woke up the next day to do it again. I learned a lot, but when I was ready to slow down and start concentrating on saving money, he wasn't. I got myself rather deep into debt trying to bail him out of his own overextended planning - although my debt is nothing compared to his (most of which was there before I came along). Then I moved to this new apartment, six months ago, and this is when everything exploded. I wasn't allowed to drive my car, because he decided we didn't have enough money for gas, so he'd drive me everywhere. We had to do EVERYTHING together. I don't just mean "when he wasn't with his friends" - no, I had to go everywhere he went, hardware store, dinners with relatives, dinners with friends, grocery store, everything. I had to squeeze chores into the short periods of time when I was home. We'd have discussions on the chores, and I'd explain how if I could drive myself to work in the morning earlier than he went, I could leave before him, and do some things before he got home. This made sense, he got up at 4am and didn't leave until 7am, he made me get up the same time as he did and I was ready to go by 4:30. So he would agree, then insist that no, I couldn't go in early, I should do them in the morning while he's getting ready. But I had to get up same time as him, had to go to sleep same time as him, he'd take forever to take a shower so I couldn't do the wash, I had to sit in the bathroom while he took his shower because he didn't want to be alone without me, and if I was somewhere and he couldn't see me he's start shouting "Where are you!" I felt like I wasn't allowed to have a separate life from him. I didn't spend time with friends (didn't have any by then), didn't talk to my family, my whole life revolved around him, his family, and chores. He'd verbally abuse me to my face, he'd give me giant lists of things he wanted me to do for him and then complain when I didn't do them all the same day he asked (or forgot he asked me to do it), most of which involved me doing his job or making reservations for him while I was at work. I used up all my vacation days and sick days doing his jobs, and nursing him back to health, because I didn't have any way to get paid for a full 40 hour week otherwise. (Since he drove me in, I couldn't work any time more than what he worked, and he charged 8 hours for his 'work' even if it mainly consisted of sleeping in his office.) To his family, though, he was always bragging about how great I was, how he wouldn't be alive if it weren't for me, how much I love and care about him, etc. He was always writing me poetry, and the ones he liked best he printed and framed and hung up and showed to people to show what a great person he was. Every holiday he'd buy me flowers and chocolates and we'd get all dressed up and he'd get so drunk in the car on the way there that I had to drive there, and home again, and we'd only order one dinner because he wouldn't eat anything anyway. Then, on top of everything... I made it known very early on in the relationship that I wouldn't have sex with anyone until I got married, which I am very grateful for now... But he did decide that he was a man, and he had needs, so I had to satisfy them in other ways. I think that's the part that bothered me the worst... He was always accusing me of being a nun, and uptight, and even went so far as to say I must have been sexually abused as a child because I didn't talk to him like the women in those porn DVDs. He would make me pick out the DVDs, and tell him why I wanted them, and the only thing that REALLY brought out the verbal abuse in "public" was if I tried to tell him I didn't want to pick out a video. I remember the argument he started because he kept picking up the ones with gay men, and saying that I was weird for liking guys with muscles (I'm not talking about the ones on the body builder magazines, or even guys who lift furniture - I'm just talking about someone who maybe lifts weights once a month!) and so I must like gay men. That resulted in him storming out yelling and paying $200 for videos he never watched. (I got a great feeling about cutting them up with scissors while he was in rehab.) When he got extra drunk, he'd insist on all these crazy costumes, and how I had to do this or that, and he'd yell at me saying he'd yell until I got excited about it, and I had to tell him all these made up fantasies that he decided I should have, and then wondered why I was never excited. He'd also insist that tonight was the night, and he'd go out and buy condoms, only to insist later that no, we should get married first - let's go to Maryland tonight. I am so grateful I put my foot down, because I am just starting to imagine what would have happened if I had ever married him, or had sex with him, and how much more abuse would have been waiting for me once those floodgates opened. I am so fortunate in this respect. I had also managed to find Al-Anon, through someone at work who was a giant supporter of AA and very open about it. If he hadn't gone to talk to XABF about his "alcoholism," and XABF did not pass that on to me, I wouldn't have felt comfortable talking to him... But he helped me get the help that I needed, early on. Unfortunately I was only able to get to three meetings, while XABF was in the house, because he forbid me from attending ever again. ("Thank you so much for going to Al-Anon to find ways to help me, but I'll never drink again, so you'll never go again!") The never drinking didn't even last a week, but I still wasn't allowed to go. I am so grateful that he started throwing furniture that day I visited my parents. I left the apartment, because finally I woke up and realized that this isn't normal. I found this forum, and was recommended this book - more than anything, this book opened my eyes to the insanity I was living, and helped me realize that it wasn't just the alcohol. I was at the end of my rope. I kept imagining new ways to end it all - even tried putting a few into motion with anything I could get my hands on (the one that came the closest... thank goodness we were running out of Tylenol, looking at it later I think I was two short of the usually-lethal dose). This book helped me recognize that I wasn't crazy, that all these feelings I was having were normal for someone in my situation, and that my situation was not normal or acceptable. It helped me recognize some of the early signs he was showing before we got deep into the relationship, and it gave me the sanity I needed to do what needed to be done. I am also grateful he was in rehab, and still trying to control my life over the phone, because otherwise I probably would have ended up right back there with him. This post is long enough, I apologize for anyone who is trying to read it. I can't believe I put up with what I did, and for as long as I lived it! Thank you so much, everyone, for helping me find my head again. <3 |
Wow bookwyrm and Starcat....Your stories are so...unnerving and powerful. Thank you for sharing them. |
My convoluted story. I met XAH when I was 26, just out of theatre school, majorly depressed and involved with a swinger's group. I'd just broken up with my then-fiancé and was so distraught that I figured I was just a sl*t and didn't deserve to be loved. We met at a party thrown by my group. He came with his then-wife, Babymama #3. I was already paired off with someone and wanted nothing to do with him. Eventually though, because I was having trouble with sharing my "partner" with other members of the group, I called on XAH and his then-wife to ask them how they managed an open-relationship. That's how my contact with XAH increased. We started emailing and chatting. He and I went out for coffee and my "partner" took it as a good sign that I was showing interest in other men, so he could go "play" with other women. It was soooo unhealthy...I was ripe for the picking. XAH was unhappy with his then-wife and looking for someone to jump ship to. In a sense, in true codie fashion, we "rescued" each other, much to the dismay of my swinging group, who lost me as a plaything. Back then, XAH had shared custody of his second son, and he and Babymama #3 had a son too. It was seeing XAH parent his boys that made me fall for him. I wanted a family and I saw him in the potential for a life partner. We "fell madly in love with one another", or rather, we clung to each other like crazy while the sh*tstorm went on around us. Babymama#3 was furious at having her man stolen and my playgroup hounded us constantly, telling us we were doomed. That, coupled with my stubborness, is probably what got us through the first rough months. XAH told me he thought we'd known each other in another lifetime but couldn't be together then, and that THIS lifetime was our opportunity. He told me woeful stories about his childhood, where he was abused by his parents, his adulthood, where all his previous partners used and abused him, and about his time in jail, where he had to clean up blood and how he magically beat up 4 men all on his own. He told me that "the others" would kidnap him at night, which explained the bruises he often had...and that the apocalypse was coming soon, and that his role in life was to prepare his son for the role he was going to play in leading humanity into a new era. Then there were the stories about how he healed faster than normal and was a different kind of human, more advanced. I was mesmerized. This man was "different". He was strong and defended me and yet, he'd been abused. He needed my help! He just needed a chance... XAH played games with me even in the beginning. He'd invite me over to his apartment, but when I mentioned the torrential rain outside, he told me to just pay for a cab. When I waffled because I was broke, he'd say "Are you coming or not?!!!". I'd comply. I had always been a doormat to begin with. When I asked for his advice about something, he would give it but then got angry if I didn't listen. Then after a while when his babymama#3 started to freak out that we were still seeing one another, he'd tell me he and I had to stop seeing one another. But then he'd call me "secretely" and tell me he was thinking of me. Then his babymama would call me and threaten to beat me...then call me back and apologize while sobbing...then send me pictures of them having sex. It drove me mad. I had panic attacks. I lost weight. I couldn't sleep. I started cutting myself. I started showing up to teach classes on the verge of a breakdown. My business suffered. My roommate decided I was too crazy and moved out while I was away, taking all furniture except my bed. My cutting got so bad I ended up in a halfway house, supervised by social workers, because I was at risk for suicide. I flew to CA to join my parents on vacation and even then, after having told me that we were through, XAH called me saying he loved me. Not long after my return, he and his two sons moved in with me. That's when I started to notice the drinking. I'd noticed it before when he borrowed money from me for junk food and JD&Cokes, but I just chalked it up to normal behaviour. I didn't drink so I didn't know. When we lived together, his dysfunctions became apparent...He told me he couldn't work because he was a "type A depressive" and that if I agreed to him moving in, I couldn't demand that he work a normal job. He'd often have panic attacks that would cause vomitting,...which he left for me to clean up. He drank A LOT to do his photography, which he was actually good at. He smoked A LOT. He took a lot of sleeping pills. And from the time he moved in with me, I was expected to buy his kids furniture and food, which at first I did willingly, but then seeing the expense, I balked. I was berated and made to feel guilty for that. Our honeymoon period was frought with conflict. He YELLED a lot. He punched walls whenever he was "hurt", and then he would tell me it was my fault he was in such pain. At first, I was his saviour. I wasn't like the other women who had betrayed him. Soon enough, he found ways to take me off that pedestal...soon I was just like the others, a liar and a manipulator. To his credit, I lied a lot in his presence. I was so afraid he'd be mad at me. I lied about my past relationships...because he wanted to hear certain things. I lied to make him happy. I lied about where I'd been or who I'd been with, because I wasn't allowed to have male friends...because "considering your history of sleeping with your friends", I was most certainly going to be unfaithful. Before he had moved in, I'd started dancing because I was attracted to the idea of easy money and the nightlife. As soon as he moved in, I didn't have a choice but to continue because our expenses were high and he never brought in any money. Whatever photography contracts he got, I found for him, organized, styled, etc. I was running his business, trying to keep up with my acting career, and stripping at night. I was so exhausted. Sick all the time. But I kept going because I *loved* him...and his son. Before long, my acting career died, because he wouldn't let me take gigs taht involve having physical contact with men. If I had an audition where I had to kiss a stranger, I'd lie to him about it. He once showed up on a set for a shoot where I had to make out with someone and he managed to get me to drop everything by threatening to leave him. I was his little punching bag...I was often told that I was crazy, that I was a liar, and that if I'd just tell him EVERYTHING, he could "forgive me" and we'd start over...but he was smart. Or a coward. He never touched me. He did however YELL in my face, roaring like a madman, saying that I brought out the worst in him. He'd punch walls, break things, throw things around, cut up my clothing if he felt that I'd cheated on him, and he regularly threatened to tell people what I was if I left him. He also cut himself a great deal, everytime showing me the scabs and telling me I'd caused his pain. In a sense, I was frozen in place by guilt, by fear of giving up, or just plain fear. During our time together, XAH and I did drugs a few times, and twice, he "interrogated" me while I was high, thinking I would suddenly admit everything to him...He had me convinced that there were secrets hidden deep inside me that I hid from him. He also insisted on filming us or taking pictures while having sex. If I mentioned leaving, he threatened to use that material against me. Despite all this, I stayed. I never even thought about leaving because I thought that I would only marry once and that he was "the one". I married at City Hall, with strippers as my witnesses, and I paid for the entire thing. When an opportunity to return to the city where I was born came up, I jumped on it. XAH jumped on it too, at first, because it was an opportunity start over. Before long though, he informed me that I was expected to find him a job there because *I* was the one forcing him there, away from his friends (i.e. drinking buddies). Once we moved here, things came to a head...I received flowers from a friend of mine, who happened to be a dancer, and who he had a real hate-on for, because she told me in no uncertain terms that she hated him. We had a real fight, with me begging and sobbing, and him packing his stuff. He made me call my friend and tell her that I had lost respect for her and that I was choosing him over her. Then he made me throw out my BC pills to prove to him that I really loved him...because if I really loved him, I would get pregnant with his child. Then I'd truly be trapped. A month later, I was preggo. Then there was a honeymoon period. He was nicer to me than he'd ever been, protective even, but he still continued to isolate me from my family. I later learned he told my parents that if they didn't fall in line and shut up, that they'd never see their grandchild. Once my daughter was born, the honeymoon was over. The drinking escalated, and so did the late nights out. By then, I'd learned to avoid fights at all cost, to lie convincingly to his face, and to keep my head down whenever he threw things around. His son did the same. When I finally met the rest of his family, who lived in the States, I started to realize that everything he'd ever told me about his past was a lie. I wasn't his first wife, nor his second. I was his fourth. His family wasn't abusive or made up of rich doctors...they were dysfunctional, but not abusive, and not rich doctors. His mother and grandmother painted a very different picture of XAH... What got me to leave what his anger getting out of hand again, but this time, while I held my baby girl. I had previously walked out on him with baby in tow because I was starting to realize that he was abusive, but in the middle of winter with a 6 month old strapped to me, I had nowhere to go. He came home, as he knew I would. This last time though, I had a flash...to the future that could have been...I saw my daughter as a grown woman, standing frozen in place, eyes down to avoid angering, trembling in front of a man very much like her father. Suddenly, all I could think of was "no f*cking way, no f*cking way"...all the while putting baby in her stroller and walking out the door. That's how it started to end. I found SR and started to understand what I was involved in and how to extricate myself. The abuse and threats continued as we separated. He threatened to take my child. He threatened my family indirectly. He threatened to tell people I was a stripper and wh*re, and that I was into incest. He cut me off from my stepson. Honestly, I think it took me so long to get away from him because he truly was a special kind of crazy. He wasn't the typical abusive husband you see in the news...he was cunning, he was a skilled liar, and he entertained a bunch of delusions I didn't know what to make of. It took some counselling for me to understand that he was a problem of monumental proportions that I was lucky to be rid of. It took SR for me to understand that I had a lot to do with the way the relationship started and continued. And it took a little baby girl to get me to realize that the consequences of my choices could drastically affect those I loved. |
((((((((((noday)))))))))) ...thank you so much for sharing your very powerful story... I am amazed, reading all these stories, how the specific details change but the story does not. As different and unique as they are, they're still very much alike... |
Noday, honey, that was powerfully honest and I appreciate your sharing that with us. Wow, you have really been through the mill, haven't you? Your parents must have been beside themselves with worry and concern for you :( I'm so glad you are with them now...they must be loving having you and your daughter with them now. You have learned much, eh? |
I just want to say that I am humbled to be among such powerful, strong, courageous women. My hat's off to all of you, not only for surviving, but for bravely sharing your stories for everyone's benefit. L |
I finally ordered this, and two Beattie books that I don't already have, from Barnes and noble tonight. I've told a few stories on here already myself, and it's been calm around my house as of late so I don't want to refresh them in my memory right now, but I'm sure if you do a search of my name you can find them. |
I'm finding writing these chapters exhausting. But I am gaining so much from this that I want to keep on going! Thanks everyone who has posted, read and shared. You keep me going with your strength, courage and insight. |
I just got the book on Thurs. and have read one and half chapters. It's fascinating and now I know that I wasn't crazy in thinking that my AH intentionally exhibited bad behavior unfortunately to his benefit many times. Thanks for making me aware of this book...I'm loving reading it. |
Chapter 6 The Abusive Man in Relationships - The Abusive Man in Everyday Life I feel like I'm going crazy. Sometimes I can just tell it's one of those days; no matter what I do, I'm going to get it sooner or later. He's a teddy bear underneath. I never know what to expect; he can just turn on me out of the blue. I wouldn't call him an abuser. I mean, he can be really nice for weeks at a time. I really love him. To understand abuse, you can't look just at the explosions; you have to examine with equal care the spaces between the explosions. ...In this chapter we enter the mind of the abuser at various points in daily life to better understand what sparks his abusive reactions. The abusive man in arguments. The abuser's problem is not that he responds inappropriately to conflict. His abusiveness is operating prior to the conflict: it usually creates the conflict and it determines the shape the conflict takes. Conversational control tactics:
[The abuser] launches into attributing many of his own characteristics to [his partner]. This is not quite the same as projection - he perceives his partner to be yelling because one of his core values is that she's not supposed to get angry at him, no matter what he does. He thinks she doesn't care about him because in his mind she can't care about him unless she cares only about him and not at all about herself or other people...He thinks she holds grievances because she sometimes attempts to hold him accountable rather than letting him stick her with cleaning up his messes. [The abuser] also uses projection as a control tactic. "Oh, I knew what I was saying about her wasn't really true but it's a way to really get to her". Four Critical Characteristics of an Abusive Argument: 1. The abuser sees an argument as war. His goal in a verbal conflict is not to negotiate different desires, understand each others experience's or think of mutually beneficial solutions. He wants only to win. 2. She is always wrong in his eyes. 3. He has an array of control tactics in conflicts The most common being:
The abusive man wants particularly to discredit your perspective, especially your grievances. He may tell you...that the 'real' reasons why you complain about the way he treats you are: You don't want him to feel good about himself You can't handle it if he has an opinion that differs from yours, if he is angry or if he is right. You are too sensitive, you read too much into things or you take things the wrong way. You were abused as a child or by a former partner, so you think everything is abuse. The abusive man's goal in a heated argument...is to get you to stop thinking for yourself and to silence you. 4. He makes sure he gets his way - by one means or another. The abusive man's cycles. The tension building phase During this period your partner is collecting negative points about you and squirrelling them away for safekeeping...Abusers nurse their grievances... To defend against any complaints you attempt to express, the abuser stockpiles his collected grievances like weapons...And some of his negativity about you is just plain habit. An abuser falls into a routine of walking around dwelling on his partners purported faults. Since he considers you responsible for fixing everything for him, he logically chooses you as his dumping ground for all of life's normal frustrations and disappointments. The eruption Once he's ready to blow, the tiniest spark will ignite him... after he blows, the abuser absolves himself of guilt by thinking of himself as having 'lost control', the victim of his partner's provocations or his own intolerable pain. The "Hearts and Flowers" stage After the apologies are over, the abuser may enter a period of relative calm. He appears to have achieved a catharsis from...raining down abuse on his partner. A closer look at the good periods
Ten Reasons to Stay the Same Any incident of abusive behaviour brings the abuser benefits...over time, the man grows attached to his ballooning collection of comforts and privileges.
Is he going to get violent? Has he ever trapped you in a room and not let you out? Has he ever raised a fist as if he were going to hit you? Has he ever thrown an object that hit you or nearly did? Has he ever held you down or grabbed you to restrain you? Has he ever shoved, poked or grabbed you? Has he ever threatened to hurt you? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then we can stop wondering whether he'll ever be violent; he already has been. It is crucial to use common sense - and legal - definitions of what constitute violence, not the abusers definition. And abuser minimises his behaviour by comparing himself to men who are worse than he his, whom he thinks of as 'real' abusers. Will his verbal abuse turn to violence? Some indicators:
Racial and Cultural Differences in Abuse ...the fundamental thinking and behaviour of abusive men cut across racial and ethnic lines. The underlying goal of these abusers, whether conscious or not, is to control their female partners. At the same time, the particular shape that abusiveness takes can vary considerably among races and cultures. Is abuse of women acceptable in some cultures? ...cultural approval for partner abuse is disturbingly high in our society, even among the privileged and educated... In reality, abuse of women - and societal approval of it - is a widespread problem in the great majority of modern cultures. The only places where it has been found not to exist are among some tribal peoples who are highly disapproving of all forms of aggression and who give women and men equal, or nearly equal, power. Key points to remember:
|
The argument outlined in this chapter was eerily close to home for me. XAH would tell me nothing was wrong, when something clearly was. He would sulk. Passive-aggressiveness was his favourite tactic and he would go to extreme lengths to make himself the victim. Actually identifying these tactics helps me to reclaim my sanity. |
Originally Posted by boomerlady
(Post 2896727)
I just got the book on Thurs. and have read one and half chapters. It's fascinating and now I know that I wasn't crazy in thinking that my AH intentionally exhibited bad behavior unfortunately to his benefit many times. Thanks for making me aware of this book...I'm loving reading it. |
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:41 PM. |