I think you feelings of shame are very important.
I've been thinking about shame lately, too.
Shame is a destructive emotion that links to the past.
Do you have a therapist?

BTW my therapist also offers services via chat and email with a special rate... so there are options in case you can't move very easily.

When they want acceptance what they really mean is they want you to accept them crapping all over you forever. When you choose not to let them do that anymore, they get angry.

I spent so many years giving my power away to others. My AH being the one I gave most of it to. Nearly twenty years of my life wishing, hoping, thinking that if only he would do the right things I would be happy. All that time, I had the power to be happy and didn't even know it. Sometimes I wish I learned quicker......:)

L

Isn't this the catch, though? I had the power to be happy all along. I could have chosen to be happy living with him (and I really tried hard to do that). But once I started to detach and connected with myself and my integrity again, I was not able to stand by and allow myself to be trampled and run over by someone who didn't give a flip about me or my feelings. So at some point, I didn't have a choice but to leave - it was either that or give in to the riptide and accept AH's version of reality.

Do you think you had the power to STAY and be happy?

No, I don't. But for years I convinced myself that I couldn't be happy without him. So, I stayed and kept on trying to get him to change. It's actually quite bizarre to think about now. I was sure I could only be happy with him. And, I wanted him to be someone else! How crazy is that?

L

Iwant control, remember this - He who harms you cannot heal you. I totally identify with your feelings though and am SO grateful you wrote them down for me to read. How you feel is how I felt during the last months/weeks/days of my relationship. I walked from it, or should I say limped from it, 17 months ago now and he is still drinking, still hanging round with his drinking and drugging so called 'friends'. My exabf simply did not want to stop, he could not envisage a life without mind-altering substances and alcohol. He has another enabler now too. I have had months of therapy and attended Al-Anon and although I thought the pain of letting go would never end, it started improving slowly and I am in a much better place today than I was then. I look back now and think how insane I was to tolerate so much abuse and believe that he loved me!!! That is madness - love should not equal pain on such a huge scale. You are putting up with the crumbs thrown at you girl, go and get yourself a whole loaf!!! You are worth it. Hugs to you.

thanks again everyone, i am doing a lot of thinking. It's weird because sometimes I can see how much he loves me, and other times I'm left wondering if he is capable of feeling love at all. When its good I don't doubt it, but I'm always thinking how could you be nasty and rude to someone you love for no real reason? He's not incredibly abusive or anything but he'll tell me i'm moody and i make him angry, and that he doesn't want to see me becasue I think i'm better than everyone else and i need to sort myself out etc etc. It is still hurtful and i guess it doesn't matter what he says - if i tell him something hurts my feelings he should stop it regardless. You don't wat to hurt someone you love. I know that. I'm very confused at the moment. I realy appreciate you all replying and it has helped.

iwc,
I feel like a broken record, but I will say it one more time:

Whether he loves you is evidenced in HOW HE TREATS YOU.
not in how he says he feels.

Love is a verb, an action word. It's not an idea - it is a course of conduct.

What you two feel for each other is not love (in my opinion).

If you were acting LOVING to him, you wouldn't hound him about his drinking and treatment. If he were acting loving to you, he would not lie, would not entertain this lady-friend knowing that you feel threatened, would not tell you he doesn't wish to be around you.

I can hardly stand to hear "but I love him" again. Not just from you - from anyone. To me, it is a nonsensical statement where the parties are always fighting and at odds and trying to change each other.:lala

For most of my life, I held this thought:

If he loves me, then I should stay.

Nothing in all of the romantic movies, and magazine articles, and novels, and TV shows EVER prepared me for this simple reality:

Sometimes it's not enough for someone to love you. Sometimes they are still not good for you, and you need to find a better fit or else, as Joni Mitchell puts it, be prepared to bleed.

You are of course aware that there are an infinite number of men out there who could love you, iwantcontrol? Why choose this one, with all of the chaos he brings--chaos you cannot change and can never fix? Is this why you are drawn to him? Because he is an endless puzzle you can keep trying to solve forever? I am not criticizing you one whit if that is so - just know that you are doing it, and know what you are paying for the privilege.

The way I see you, you are a commodity on the love market. You are in demand: a smart, strong, loyal woman who knows how to take care of herself -- an incredibly valuable partner for someone who is of the same mettle.

As you become more and more ready, please consider the possibility that you might be wasting your life-energy on this particular relationship, and should instead be keeping your eyes peeled for another in which your feelings are reciprocated 100%, and in which you are an equal partner, not a saviour for a grown man.

You cannot save him. You can only save yourself.

With love and regard,
GL

Just when I thought I'd read it all on here and couldn't use any more help lol...This was a great thread for me. I'm so glad I stopped by today and read all of this one.

I know I fell in love with the psychological puzzle. It challenged me, always. Being the ambitious gal I am. I would stop at nothing to solve this one. Part of me still hasn't. But there's a really powerful woman inside of me that has realized that that thrill of figuring him out, and trying over and over again is not worth everything else that I loose. The little girl in me thinks that I will never love again, and that I need to keep loving him to power my generator. It took being attacked by his dog while he was passed out for me to see just how powerless I was over the whole situation. It took letting go of him to realize how empty I am after giving everything I had to this one broken person.

Its not your job to piece together Humpty's shell, but if you want to give it a go....I did. I went in KNOWINGLY. I am a caring, sensitive person..There are people who WANT help. I can volunteer. But I know, you love this person. I love my ex too. The pain runs deep. I think about him still. I get angry. I cry. I feel angry with myself. Its so incredibly hard. But you know what? I grew inside of the shell. It wasn't easy being squashed up into the tiniest ball. Compressed into an impossible situation. Now,
I'm learning to fly all by myself. While he's cracked on the floor, trying to function. Are you going to stay grounded, trying to piece him together? Or are you going to fly? (If he makes it, he makes it. It's hard leaving our brothers behind, but he won't grow strong wings unless he does it himself)

Ahh and seriously Anvil I want to squeeze you today. I ran into XABF today. again. It happens every week. The sick part of me likes it. I read your generator post and it seriously changed my whole world today. I'm turning my own power on. It's hard, but I'm learning how right this very moment and you just summed up exactly how it feels.

You'd miss him IWant, but you have a chance to get yourself back! It takes a long time to get where you are and its going to take a long time to get yourself out. Who do you choose? You or him? That's really all it boils down to. I choose me because in the end, I'm all I've got. I know it hurts. I know how gut wrenching those cries are. And Anvil, you better believe this weekend my own dad said to me during which I was bawling my eyes out "will you please get a new kleenex? You've been holding that one and its all balled up and gross. We have plenty of kleenex....Grab a new one."



Grab a new one. I like that. A whole fresh start. Scary....But worth it.

My suggestion if you truly want or think you can change him, go to Al Anon. It's very common for the addict to follow the person they love into recovery.

In my home group, there are 5 people who were like you. The end of their rope. They started Al Anon and their husbands got sober once they started to change and not be a doormat.

Your ABF knows you won't leave. They sense it like wild animals.

I know it's tough to get to meetings. I have the BUSIEST life and always found reasons not to go, but then I thought, hmmm, if I can give my work 10 hrs of my day, I can certainly give myself 1 hr 2 x a week.

Your pain is my pain. My ABF is in recovery and it's a long road

I only read your post in the beginning but I'm sure you got some excellent advice from this board. I just wanted to let you know that you wrote down my life! Every last detail of what I've been through.The ex, the phone change, the friends, the drinking, the non drinking, him coming over TO drink (bet his mother still doesn't think that and blames me anyway). All I can say is as soon as he was out of my house, my stress level went to near 0! (And I have health problems to worry about) My kids are better behaved, we have a better relationship with each other and I have met some wonderful friends that I didn't meet through him! Keep your chin up, own your boundaries and do what is always best for YOU in the long run. If you ever start saying "well, he makes me happy and IS good for me" STOP immediately. You are in an abusive cycle and until you make the decision to change, nothing will change. He will get help when he wants it with or without you. My favorite question in the world that helped me was something my sister said...... "What does he have to offer me"? Emotionally, spiritually, Physically (not sex, presence), and financially. (do you share finances?) And then flip it, what do you offer him? My guess is ALOT more. Relationships are about balance. It's never even steven and that's ok. But there should be some balance. Good luck to you! You can PM me anytime.

Lady

i don't think it sounds selfish, i think it sounds desperate.

from what i know of depression, you can't take care of it, even with psych drugs and therapy, if you are still drinking/drugging. the drug takes a front seat and alters brain chemistry, and personality.

of course he may love you. but while he is in active addiction, that love will always be masked by the other, ugly emotions you see. you can't get to it, he can't get to it. he can't let anyone in, and he can't get out. that's just a fact.

unless he truly surrenders, he will continue to repeat this cycle. unless you truly surrender to your issues, you will to.

kind words?
you are not selfish to want love, you are not stupid to be kind and forgiving, and wish the best for this man.
you are walking the exact path that you need to. you get to decide how long to stay stuck, however. i urge you to accept that your relationship with him will continue to be more of the same, because he has made it clear what his choice is. now....what is yours, right now, today? it doesn't have to be for forever.

today i read all your posts and they make me feel stronger. I know something needs to happen for me to be able to stay in this relationship long term. He needs to seek recovery properly. If he doesn’t I am not going to waste my whole life on him – that has never been my intention. It’s just knowing when to finally give up.

He has been saying to me today that he’s starting to think he’s not good enough for me. He wants to be with me and have the life we talk about but he doesn’t think he’s good enough. He is very depressed and low right now but even though he is talking about contacting the hospital (mental health) and hopefully going in for a few nights, he hasn’t actually done it yet. I think he spoke to them yesterday but he could probably stay there if he rang today. Yet I know he won’t choose that path – he will drink today. It’s what he does when he gets like this. I feel horrible thinking about leaving him when he’s in this state but as you said, I don’t need to make any lifelong decisions today.

For today and the near future, maybe I should just pull back from him and the relationship (although I have been doing this anyway to some degree for a little while). I also need for my own sake, to make this less about me and us and more about him. When he starts drinking every day again I tend to take it personally because I see it as him risking our relationship. I know I make comments and ask questions about whether he wants to be with me and whether I can stay with him if he is drinking. It just gets so boring – I don’t want to talk about the drinking, neither does he. I’m fed up talking about it. I’m fed up with him telling me he is trying and doing the best he can.

He tells me that, then when he’s been drinking he says he can’t give up alone and its bigger than him and that he can’t stop just like that because he’s dependent on it. Then as soon as he’s sober again he continues with the whole ‘i’m really trying’ and still doesn’t seek the help. I can’t see that cycle ever ending.

I never did have the chat with him where I told him that he needs to seek proper help again or we will be over. I don’t want to make it sound like an ultimatum but I do want to tell him he must reach the decision either to carry on like this or to seek recovery. If he decides to seek recovery I will stand by him and help if he needs me, but if he chooses to carry on like this then I won’t support his decision and the relationship will not be able to work. I know a lot of you think it is pointless having this conversation but I’m getting to the point where I need him to choose recovery or not. Anyone think that is a good idea or a mistake?

1. Yes, he does.

2. And that's why in AA, they say that they need each other. "One drunk helping another" is the theme. (hint: you're not the other drunk)

3. I don't think it's pointless, if you feel you need to put it out there. It helps give closure, and it help to commit us to actually ending the relationship. That grey area we can live in isn't right for either one of us.

I gave many ultimatums in my marriage. Sometimes, they actually worked--for a short time. Most of the time I got the same lip service you are getting about "I'm trying!" The unfortunate reality is he will not get sober until he is ready. Nothing you say or do, including leaving him or staying with him, can make him ready. It really has NOTHING to do with you. Really.

L

I attended a few speaker meetings where there were people who shared stories about their recovery. Some of the women did give ultimatums and actual left and or kicked their A's out. They were firm, none of this codie nonsense.
Both men went to AA, and only once they had a few months of recovery, did these women take them back. One women went to Al Anon, another no Al Anon and just therapy.

There is no sure fire why to instill or create growth, but there is one common theme in ALL recovery, once you mean business, then growth occurs.

And you say "he needs to seek recovery properly", you also need to seek recovery properly. You're as sick as your partner, so they tell me

In yourself.

It's a very slippery slope to suggest that a codependent seeking recovery will cause an A to seek recovery.

I ended up seeking help because I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. At that point, it really didn't matter what my AH did or didn't do. I HAD to save myself. That is the only common theme I see in people who are recovering. Codependents or A's.

I spent a fair amount of time reading the Alcoholics forum when I first got here, and I was struck by how little mention there is over there about spouses and SO's. It's about alcoholics recovering for themselves. Because they reached a point in their lives where they wanted it badly enough.

Sure, it happens sometimes that the loss of a relationship is a bottom. But all the available statistics suggest that only about 10-15% of all A's ever recover. And only a tiny percentage of them do it because they lost a marriage or relationship. If that is the motivation for seeking recovery from codependence, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

L