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Originally Posted by bookwyrm
(Post 2417278)
Ago, I read your post this morning and it has bothered me all day. Usually you write very insightful stuff but this just seemed mean and low. I'm not as articulate as you so please bear with me. I can only speak from my experience. When STBXAH lived with me he passed the blame/responsibility onto me for almost everything wrong in our lives. And, somehow, I took it on board and tried to shoulder it. STBXAH was very controlling and I became very isolated. This impacted on my mental health - I suffered from depression for years. My self confidence and self esteem became eroded over the years. I didn't trust myself and STBXAH eroded any self belief I had. I trusted his opinion more than my own. Yes, I know, a consequence of my choice to stay with him - strongly influenced by him and my daily situation. Then I was referred to a counsellor for depression - this started my personal growth and all hell broke loose at home. When I found this site I knew nothing about alcoholism and even less about co dependancy. Knowledge is power and it helped set me free. Questions like 'do alcoholics feel remorse?' were asked by me from a place of pain and disbelief. As a codie I have been 'trained' to be over responsible for everything and to believe the best of my STBXAH. His escalating alcoholism and subsequent behaviour were so out of the blue, so painful, that I couldn't understand how a thinking, feeling human being could do that to another that they professed to love. I still don't get the why of it but I have learned to let it go. Personally, when I was just starting to learn about all this stuff, I still took the blame and responsibility for everything. Instead of blaming myself, I needed to look at things differently. Part of that process was blaming the alcoholic in my life - something I had never considered doing before. If I had come to this site and been confronted with even more finger pointing and blame, I would have crumbled under the weight of it all. Reading all the other stories here made me realise that, actually, I'm NOT the reason STBXAH drinks, I'm not alone in what I experienced and I don't deserve it! What may seem obvious to you didn't to me. What I'm trying to say is that, as a codie, I was blamed for so much, I had the weight of the world on my shoulders. I needed to learn how to be responsible for only the things I am responsible for! Which is why I love the fact that this forum says things like 'that's what alcoholics do' etc. It helped me work out what was my 'stuff' and what I could leave well enough alone. I needed to learn to be kind to myself and put me first. I'm a codie, not an alcoholic. This forum was my safe place when living with an active alcoholic. I wouldn't want to see that change. Just because something is the truth and has a "bite" doesn't necessarily make it "mean and low", I asked those same questions as you did when I was new, and when I was new they were relevant, after six months however my support group would repeatedly bring the focus back on me, because that is where the answer ie recovery was to be found. I hear what you are saying, and by no means did I mean to be hurtful but I guess, I can be painfully blunt and honest on occasion, and that hits some people wrong, I get that, for me it comes down to do I want somebody to co-sign my BS or do I want solution and answers, I guess I am looking for different things from my recovery from codependency then others here. Laurie and LaTeeDa seem to have the knack of being as blunt as me without causing the resentment, good trick to learn I guess. I am sorry that my post bothered you. |
Originally Posted by Ago
(Post 2417338)
... I guess I am looking for different things from my recovery from codependency then others here..... http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ease-read.html Mike Moderator, SoberRecovery |
Laurie, I loved your post. I'm 3 weeks new, and yes it was blunt, but personally I didn't find it harsh. Post on my posts anytime! You post with truth and insight. Thank you! I also appreciate LaTeeDa's posts. |
I agree with you that he DOES have a choice. He CHOOSES to go to the store and buy it. He CHOOSES to open the can and drink it. It's not like he's being held down and it's poured down his throat. I do, however, believe it is a disease and it's the disease that convinces him he must have this drink. I see it like when your stomach growls, whether you want to eat or not you know you HAVE to in order to feel better. So you're left with two choices--eat or don't eat. I believe that he thinks it's the only way to feel better. But I know he knows there are other options out there to deal with the things that lead him to drinking. But ultimately he chooses to drink instead of counseling or working harder or anti-depressants or so on and so forth. |
Doesn't having guilt mean that they would admit to what they've done wrong and say SORRY - "I'm sorry I made you feel that way" "I'm sorry I lied, but I couldn't help it" "I am sorry and I feel guilt about it" I have never once heard this from my AH in four and half years. He believes he does nothing wrong ever. |
I don't know, normaeinstein. I heard xabf say how sorry he was for so many things all through our relationship. He always SAID he was sorry but I don't think he really WAS sorry. It was quacking....tell me what I want to hear to make it all okay. I know my xabf could be sorry but I don't think he ever really felt remorse. |
I see plenty of recovery on this forum. We each come to things at a different pace and in our own way. |
In answer to the original question: 1) There is no way to know what another person feels. 2) It doesn't matter anyway. He can say he's sorry and not mean it. He can say nothing and feel an enormous amount of self-loathing. Or anything in between. There is really no way to know. I have a hard enough time trying to figure out my own feelings most of the time, let alone somebody elses. It doesn't matter because whether or not he feels guilty, it's his stuff. Whether or not he has a choice, it's his stuff. You do not have the tiniest bit of control over his stuff. Only he does. Trying to figure out his stuff was a convenient distraction to avoid figuring out my own stuff. I was indignant when my therapist told me that. It took months before I finally realized how right on she was. I spent years trying to figure out why my husband did the things he did. I guess somewhere in my subconscious, figuring him out was the key to controlling him. The key to getting him back on board with my plans for our life together. At the time, I didn't really realize that was what I was doing. In hindsight, it's very clear. Facing my own stuff was difficult. At times, it was painful. But, the short-term pain that I went through in dealing with my family of origin issues, my codependency issues, my self-worth issues, was still not as painful as living in an unhappy marriage with an alcoholic. I didn't like any of the choices I had at the time, so I told myself I didn't have any. I'm am eternally grateful that I (finally) made the choice to go through the difficulty instead of continuing to try to avoid it. L |
TC actually asked that question in the alcoholism forum in this thread http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...y-remorse.html |
Here is a view of my life. This morning I told my AH that I was asking people if alcoholics felt guilt. He said, "What did they say?" I told him some said yes and some said no. I said, "What do you think?" His response was: "Well, I think I need to get my hair cut still. Should I use the ATM or the Credit Card and are you going to drive me or do I have to drive my bike?" That was it. This was at 10:00 a.m. so he couldn't have been drunk enough not to care. That was the extent of our discussion. So I ask these questions to get a glimpse in his head. But I see where that doesn't help, but somehow it does kinda help me. I like hearing from alcoholics because, well, it reminds me or shows me what's going on. I like the pro and con idea. I did that a while back. The problem is although my pros are much smaller than the con, they are "biggies" for me to give up. I'm working on it, just not as fast as I probably should. I need to accept that they are just dreams and we probably won't be a happy family ever. I do dream of a better life, but dreaming doesn't make it happen. I know that. I liked the BAC comment too. That amazingly helped me. My AH's was .29 and .31 for his 2nd DUI. I don't know what it is now or how much he drinks, he just sleeps a lot and generally just lives here not really participating...and a lot of anger now from him which I didn't notice before. Thanks everyone. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. |
Originally Posted by whyamistaying
(Post 2418143)
I need to accept that they are just dreams and we probably won't be a happy family ever. L |
Originally Posted by whyamistaying
(Post 2418143)
I need to accept that they are just dreams and we probably won't be a happy family ever. I do dream of a better life, but dreaming doesn't make it happen. I know that... My AH's was .29 and .31 for his 2nd DUI... Thanks everyone. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. You should feel no guilt in just leaving him and letting him continue on his path to destruction. If that's the case, may you do so without guilt or judgement. If he does not see that he's killing himself and harming all in his path, you obviously cannot provide that for him. Now I'm going to go back to my own successful experience in Alcoholics Anonymous from the alcoholic's standpoint; this is a classical example of the alky who has more hope than the lower stage alcoholic... if they could just get a head of steam going and a desire to quit drinking for good and all. It's described in the chapter To Wives (on about page 122 of the 1st Edition)when they describe the four levels of alcoholics. If I could offer any hope, it would be to you... to find a way to be ok regardless of what he does or whether he finds sobriety or not. I believe in a program that turns families and lives around. But there are no guarantees that he will ever get and stay sober. There again, this is a sad deal and all I can really offer is a prayer for you and your family. |
"His response was: "Well, I think I need to get my hair cut still. Should I use the ATM or the Credit Card and are you going to drive me or do I have to drive my bike?" This exactly the response I would get if I asked this....or I would just get staring and saying nothing. Apparently if he changes the subject and pretends everything is great then I will forget everything........not |
McGowdog - what book is that from? |
Originally Posted by tigger11
(Post 2418296)
McGowdog - what book is that from? Mike :) |
Originally Posted by tigger11
(Post 2418296)
McGowdog - what book is that from? |
Thank you Mike and Ago (Rawr)! |
Pages 108 to 110 on the edition Ago gave. |
Sorry to butt in on your post Why! Currently reading the online BB voraciously. |
Of course alcoholics feel guilt! It's ranked as one of the main reasons they continue to drink. Guilt is one aspect of the psychological condition of addiction. |
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