Hope and Prayer and others...

One of the the things that I have trouble with is that in a loving and respectful relationship, actions that you might do are ok, while in a co dependent relationship they're not.

In a loving relationship, sometimes you could do household chores for your SO. In a co-dependent relationship, you have to do them or they don't get done.

My AW manipulates me by guilt and bullying. If you loved me, you do this. You need to excuse my behavior if you love me. You should feel this way or that way. If you suspect me of this, I'll give you reason to suspect.

I don't think my situation is co-dependent, I think its emotional blackmail.

Redd

Redd
 

The behavior of your AW is an acoholic manipulation. My addicts (XAH and RAS) used it to get what they wanted.

My co-dependency caused me to put up with it without setting boundaries. I allowed them to manipulate. I used my co-dependency, to control them in hopes that they would change when it was me that needed to change my behavior so I didn't allow their manipulation to control me.

As far as chores around the house, IMHO the difference between healthy and "sick" relationships is that in a healthy one both parties work together to get the chores done and in a "sick" one only the codie feels the need to do them because the addict doesn't care. IMHO, it is our way of saying " See me, Look what I am doing for you".

Being out of both of my marriages, it has shown me that I don't have to have an immaculately clean house, I don't need to vacuum everyday, I don't need to things done perfectly for ME to be happy. I just need to live one day at a time and work on me. No one else, just me.

I am finding what I need to survive and be healthy, what I need to live according to my HP's plan. I can let go of the manipulation and see it for what it was, Quacking.

In a healthy relationship , IMHO, there shouldn't be quilt trips, abuse (verbal or physical), or resentment.

:ghug
Barb

I believe the element of emotional blackmail can be present in a codependent relationship. Guilt-tripping, bullying, telling someone else how they "should" feel, are means of trying to control anothers person's actions and/or reactions.

Redd, why don't you consider giving Al-Anon a try? If for no other reason, you could hear people share stories similar to your's. The only request at a meeting is you try going six times. If it's not for you, fine. I've attended Al-Anon and found a few fantastic meetings. I have heard men and women speak of situations very similar to mine and your's. I have also heard people talk about their lives with addicts with complete serenity and peace. Lots of people in the meets who could answer your questions and I have found lots of the Al-Anon literature to be quite good. Just a thought.

I have tried Al-Anon, and I did like it. My biggest issue with Alanon is the abstractness of its concepts. I like SR because you guys tell me specifically what you have done in similar circumstances. When I'm out, I'll I be going quite a bit.... right now I have trouble making time to do it, and I'm getting a lot of the precepts from you guys right here..

Redd

Anytime I am putting "expectations" on my gestures, helping someone, etc, I AM BEING CO-DEPENDENT.

When I do something for another, WITHOUT MOTIVES, just because I want to, then my 'codie side' is in remission. Unfortunately, none of use, especially me, lol is perfect. But that is the "ideal."

If I am in a relationship, and I do something for the other person, expecting anything and I do mean anything in return then I am manipulating. This is how I have to look at it.

I had to learn this in my recovery from addiction. Early on, I was given an ongoing task to do by my sponsor. Do something nice for someone, anyone, every day, AND DON'T SAY A WORD ABOUT IT TO ANYONE. WOW was that hard at first, and in the beginning I really could not do it every day, but with practice, and more practice, and even more practice, it has become a part of my daily life. Changes ones whole perspective on EVERYTHING.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

I'm inclined to think that people who don't suffer from some degree of co-dependency would resolutely refuse to tolerate such emotional blackmail.

-TC

Emotional blackmail is essence of codependency. One person uses a means of control to get what they want from the dependent person. In the codependent relationship those payoffs go both ways. I get what I want, and the other person gets what they want- hence the 'co' part of the word. The problem is that personal dignity and mutual respect go flying out the window in this scenario. That's how the dysfunction works and how many people choose to live, sometimes their entire lives.

As I define co-dependency, it's all bad. I think of it basically as lots of potentially good things -- like loving, caring, nurturing, helping, supporting, etc.... -- taken to such an over-the-edge, unhealthy and dangerous to self-and-others extreme that their affect actually ends up being the exact opposite of what it would be in a healthy situation.....and, in many cases also the same behaviors that are indicative of loving, caring, nurturing, helping, supporting, etc... being engaged in, not for motives that have anything to do with real love and respect, but for motives (often sub-conscious) that have to do with fear, and control, and manipulation, and the desire to somehow compensate for lack of healthy, strong, separate self and sense-of-self.

Ideally, I think healthy adult relationships should be interdependent, and, in such relationships, obviously one is going to be doing some of the same things one does in a co-dependent relationship......but to a hugely different extent and for very, very different reasons.

freya

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

If no one's holding a gun at your head, you have a choice!

(Actually, you have a choice even if someone is holding a gun to your (or their own) head! -- but we'll save that discussion for Advanced Recovery 202.)

freya

Ooh, I like that! Thinking about it, I find it quite easy to behave like that with my children. I found it much, much harder to sustain it with my XAGF. On the other hand, I'm a lot more aware of this kind of thing now...

Mr B.

When it first dawned upon me what codependency was, how much of a codependent I am - I was reading Melodie Beattie's Codependent no more.

Every trait listed I saw in myself and immediately felt sick and overwhelmed. Feeling guilty for having allowed myself to become this way, I vowed to wipe those things from myself as though they were dirty shameful and disgusting attributes of me.

My therapist has this great analogy for doing for others or for ourselves. It's like a pendulum. It's nice to be in the middle. Codependents swing towards others, and when I discovered my dirty little secret - my pendulum was all the way on the other side. MY goal was for middle ground.

I became selfish for the first time in my life. I needed to be there I wanted to take care of myself. I didn't help plan parties, I didn't offer to do late shifts, I didn't help anyone if I felt I would rather be home sitting in front of the TV.

I then realized that it wasn't the act of helping, or doing something for someone else that made me a nasty codependent...it was why I did it. Could I still be a good person if I didn't sacrifice for someone else? Could I tell someone I was not happy with something they did, instead of going out of my way doing something for them so they'd like me and stick around?

So many others here have said it - motives - why you do it. I believe that's what made me a codependent, not the act of doing.

To quote a song "When I tried to make it more, it was always less. There's a thin line between pleasing yourself and pleasing somebody else."

Yeah... I've started to become more selfish also. Also, when I do things, if I do something nice or something that requires me to go out of my way, I think of it as a give and take situation. I think healthy relationships require give and take, with the giving and taking going both ways.

In the relationship I'm in, I do all of the giving. That does rub me the wrong way, and causes resentment. If I quit doing those things, then I get hammered by anger, which causes more resentment.

I'm in a bit of a mental maze here, in thinking about this. I'm not sure if it's codependency, or if its emotional terrorism. The issue is that its been subtle at first, and then gets ratcheted up. I think ToughChoices had it right that some elements of co-dependency cause you to tolerate emotional blackmail. In my case, its a learned response from my AW. She plays the push me pull you game to perfection. Emotional Blackmail, with a reward and punishment system. The important thing for me is to be aware of what's going on, and to be able to feel my emotions without losing control to them. That's how it works. She plays the situation to give me an emotional whack, I react emotionally, she escalates, then dangles a reward. Then, afterwards, she's nice for a while (for the reward). The effective result is that she's played me like a fish on a line, got what she wanted, and maintained control.

Another AHA moment.

Redd

Whatever label you put on it, it takes two. My friend Minnie once said "the horns on his head fit perfectly the holes in mine." Hard as it was for me to admit, I was in a dysfunctional relationship, which doesn't happen unless both people are dysfunctional.

L

Redd,

I keep seeing this question as I scroll down. It boggles me that you seem so absolutely distraught in your current situation, and then ponder if co-dependency is so bad. Your situation sounds pretty bad.

Your question seems comparable to a diabetic asking if eating too much chocolate is really all that bad. Well, yeah, it kinda is.

Depending on the approval of someone else, particularly someone whose life is completely out of control and unmanageable, for your happiness and sense of well-being seems like it would always be a bad idea.

Impurrfect, I really like what you are saying, I totally relate....I'm just new.

Ok, I have read all the above posts regarding 'co-dependency' and I need help to see where it is I fall. Some part of me thinks I do have co-dependency but I am not sure. I need help in understanding this and my feelings. My ex is a coke\alcoholic.

I know I took my ex back a few months ago because he succeeded in manipulating me again and I believed he was sincere about his 'sobriety' I mean just the way he was going to meetings and the way he talked it sounded genuine and he " really wanted to be back with me"....."missed you so much"... blah blah blah. He's such a convincer. Since I really really loved this guy and believed it would work this time I let him come back. ( Probably co-dependent behavior on my part?) I know I should have not let this happen and let him have more time with sobriety before continuing a relationship with him. I think I was eager to experience this 'new' him and watching him 'grow' with his sobriety and also because I loved him so much and missed him.

I told him he could come back "IF he stayed clean" I would be willing to work on it.
Well, that didn't last long and he relapsed within weeks. He tried to hide it but I saw the evidence. I immediately told him I was through with the relationship and he needed to find somewhere else to live ( since I owned my home). He accused me of being a mean and evil person and I had 'problems' and I was being abusive! ( Ha! look at who's being abusive! ) I think I have improved my behavior towards him and us. I have learned to reconize his bad manipulative behaviors and now I think more about my life and what I want more than him. I am slowly letting go even though it has been really tough. I have to say it has been alot more peaceful here lately. No more worrying, no more manipulation, no more lies, no more detective work. Its Done! I think he has finally had it with me because I am not a good enabler anymore. We have not had any contact since he left.

I have learned alot by reading on here and other boards and I realize that I was in a abusive relationship and I felt I was fair and gave him the chance to prove himself and stood my ground about our agreement. Even though I still miss him but I have to keep remembering all those bad times to keep me away from him. I will keep falling but I will keep getting back up. I will be on here more times to ask and learn and share my experiences because this is what I do to make it through some of my days. I can't believe I got hooked into such a sick relationship. Unfortunetly I guess I was one of those in denial thinking he loved me enough to change. I know better now.

Am I a bad codie? any thoughts?

Hello suemarie, and pleased to "meet" you.

No, you are not a bad codie. There is not such thing as a "bad" codie. You are just like the rest of us. A kind, caring human being that got tangled up in the horrible disease of addiction.

The way I see it, I have a "character trait" called "empathy". I care about other people, and when they hurt I feel bad for them. If I use this empathy in a positive way it is called "compasion". When I help out a friend with no expectation of return it is kindness.

If I use this empathy in a negative way it is called "enabling". When I help my pill addicted ex-wife to cover up her affairs because I am afraid people will think I am a bad person for being divorced it is called manipulating.

I am not a bad person. I am just a normal person with character traits. Some times I do things that are not heatlhy, for me or for others. Some times I do better. Some times I get confused about my motivations and I need to ask for opinions at a meet of Al-anon or here on this forum. Some times my choices seem clear and life is easy.

None of us are "bad" people. We're just normal people that have been deeply hurt by the hardships of life. We are strong people because we are getting our lives straightened out and getting back to the business of living. One day at a time.

Mike :)

I understand now that I have a major problem with codependency, with the help of Melody Beatties' books, especially The Language of Letting Go which I read every morning. But I have a long way to go, I struggle everyday to not let people control my life. I still have to get it through my head I am not responsible for others happiness. Also It really bothers me when someone is angry with me, so often I will do whatever it takes to prevent that. Like not being honest, and then feeling sick inside. BUT, with the help of my Higher Power I am slowly getting there. I just want to be true to myself....

Respeckting, I'm not necessarilly saying codependency isn't bad. Theissue I'm trying to clarify in mind is where the line is drawn. I'm generally considered to be a nice guy, which means I'm polite, considerate, thoughtful, etc. What I'm trying to seperate in my mind is which context makes an action considerate, or co-dependent. That's the tricky part.

If I clean up the house because my AW is busy doing school work, that's considerate. If I clean up the house because she's been too drunk to do it, that's co-dependent. If she rages at me because she's drunk, and I leave the room, that's setting a boundary. If she apologizes, then what do you do? She doesn't mean it, because she's just going to do it again. If she wants wine, and I don't buy it, that sets the boundary. If we go grocery shopping and she buys wine, did I just allow her to violate a boundary?

This is sooooo confusing.

Redd

Redd, I think you're misunderstanding what boundaries are about. Boundaries are not about getting other people to behave the way you want them to. They're about what you find acceptable or not. To take your example - if the house is a mess and it bugs you, then clean it. If you find yourself always clearing up the mess, then talk to your partner about it. If you can't come to a compromise that means you both do proportionate amounts of housework, then you need to decide whether you can live with that or if it's a deal-breaker.

If she does rages at you and you leave, then that's ok if your boundary is "I will not stick around and be raged at by an angry drunk". On the other hand, if your boundary is "I won't stay in a relationship with someone who feels it's ok to get drunk and rage at me for no reason" then you need to rethink where you go from here. An insincere apology doesn't change that. It took me a while but I finally "got" that particular one when I realised that walking away when my XAGF was raging wasn't to teach her a lesson or even to make a point. It was that, simply, in my life, at that moment in time, there were many more enjoyable things I could be doing than being pointlessly raged at by a drunk. If she later came along and apologised then that wouldn't have affected the fact that by then, I was doing something that I found more fun. Not that my XAGF was one for apologies...

As for the buying wine at the grocery store: That, to me, would come down to "who's paying?" If she's paying for everything then, honestly, she can do what she wants with her money. If she's expecting you to pay for it then I'd just say to the cashier "Sorry, there's been a mix-up, I'm not paying for those bottles". Will it trigger a rage? Probably. You'll be getting between her and her next fix and that will often make an addict unhappy. But are you living your life doing what you think is right, or just living your life trying to minimise the opportunities that your wife has to bully you into doing what she wants?

You can have the most robust and righteous boundaries in the world and they won't change another person's actions a jot. Boundaries aren't about changing them; boundaries are about changing you. They are about making it clear to yourself that you are allowed to choose how you are to be treated and what is, or is not, acceptable to you.

Do you see where I'm going with this?
Mr B.