Really??

I thought that was pretty much the whole deal. As long as you're speaking from your heart and not just giving it lip service.

BC, could you please , please, please check your HALTS triggers, because you sound like you're in what me and my lovely AA besties call 'the vortex'. In the vortex we grab hold of as many complicated thoughts and juggle them round in our heads all at the same time until we really feel hopeless and despicable.

God loves you BC. It might not feel like it, but he does. He's there with you, waiting for you to crack open that sin-toasted heart and let his love in, ask for his forgiveness and strength and come home. It's not as complicated as your head is making it. If you don't believe me, seek out a spiritual advisor at your church and have a heart to heart. That's what they're there for.

If you have never read Nadia Bolz-Weber's Accidental Saints, I'd really recommend that to you right now. It is quite, quite beautiful.

Love and hugs being sent to you from the misty little Isle of the Eels xx

I am totally caught in the vortex.. But at the moment more in a way that doesn't take myself as seriously as I was when I started this thread...

I feel like finding religion was supposed to create freedom but at the moment it's just exposing weakness... which probably is a good thing if I let those areas develop in to strengths.. more on this later..

Okay. You're in the vortex and rather than trying to deal with all your past and all your future right at this moment, could you just try to do some breathing exercises and push all those other thoughts OUT of your head as they pop up. Instead focus on the right here and right now. This is where our power lies. Close your eyes and focus on your breathing in and out, counting, or just focussing on the sounds you can hear around you, or how each part of your body feels .
Once you've calmed, think though those triggers. Are you Hungry-Angry-Lonely-Tired? What can you do, practically, right now to alleviate any that are present. Never underestimate the power of HALT. I swear, one of my gals could easily get committed on how crazy her head gets when she's hungry. Now I just feed her first then talk later. Sorry if that sounds flippant, but it's my honest to goodness experience.

I felt like this when I quit drinking for 4 months in 2013 - after I started drinking again I soon realized my life was really the same drunk or sober.

It is just that when I was drunk I didn't have to think about it.

I am today 54 days sober and I do not care how bored I get. I would rather be bored and sober than drunk and not thinking about being bored - cause when I wake up in the morning I am bored, miserable and hungover with anxiety and depression. No thanks.

Why?

Because it's often difficult breaking up with someone.

Fellow at the meeting last night was down because he too is having a hard time getting over a relationship.

Personally, I've never found it easy saying goodbye or having someone else tell me that. Unfortunately, it's all part of life.

One thing is for certain drinking again isn't going to help.

Even if you did get back together if you're drinking it'll be more of the some old, same old.

Brenda, please don't get mad at me but what there is to ponder about? The guy is married to someone who is not you who has issues enough to try to take her life. Is this what you really want closure about? Please don't take it the wrong way I care for you I read your post and I think this is your AV or disease talking please you deserve way better just think about it and if your thinking is sick get someone who think for you till you are healthy and able. I said this with love because I know what it is to be your worts enemy.

Brenda,
A few mere thought bubbles from me, which you can take or leave.

1. You're 31, if I recall. Ergo, a huge part of your life is still ahead of you. That can include a future healthy relationship with someone, but it sure as hell does not need to be NOW.

2. Which leads me to my second thought: you're about 9 or so months sober? You know, surely, why many people strongly recommend keeping right out of any kind of love relationship for at least one year, if not more. And that includes even the ones that might appear on first glance to be 'ooh, really healthy! Just the right person for me! It's Real Love, this time - I can't let it slip me by! etc etc etc etc....' And this one is far from even that.

3. Therapy / counselling / whichever you wish to call it: take it from an old hand at this stuff - the good, the bad, the ugly; the expensive, the cheapest (through public health services), and anywhere in between. My current summation - for myself, who is 30 years older, and for you is the same: any of us with a very problematic history with intimate relationships will be helped with therapy. I said 'will'. Not 'might'. As to the cost excuse: I too live on a very low income. It doesn't mean I can't access any therapy at all. Look into it, you'll find the ways and means and at low cost. Think outside the box which you've boxed yourself into on this matter.

4. The Catholic thing: I speak as an ex-Catholic, and someone with a great deal of ongoing exploratory avenues in matters spiritual. Only you can decide if Catholicism is right for you right now. I have a neutral position on these things these days, but having said that: what sent up a red alert to me was you noting the coincidental timing of your pursuing becoming a Catholic with this chap's Catholicism. Red! Alert! I don't know you at all; but I would So-Not-Recommend taking on yourself any religious or spiritual position or life stance which is not one you've decided to explore as an independent woman. Sound like a few double negatives there? Probably. Nevertheless, maybe just take a big step back from that right now. It's too messy. You don't need more messiness, by the sound of it.

5. Just as a final thought: 'closure' from anything in life is very much over-rated, not well understood, and bandied about in popular parlance as a kind of quick fix. Ring any bells with addiction? On that specific notion, Scott kinda nailed it - darn it :-)

Come on, dear Brenda - no one here wants to see you go back to this character (bloke / chap / cad). And no one here wants to see you thrash around for too long in an unnecessary and destructive funk over said character / bloke / chap / cad...and bounder.

Make an old feminist happy, girl - ditch him completely! There are better men out there for you as Fricka wisely noted. It just takes some time, in real time. :dig
Vic

BC,
are you thinking the decisions you would have made had you been drinking would have been better, more reasonable, your conclusions more rational?
that's crazy thinking!
when I was drinking, I so often thought I was following my heart, y'know, doing these emotionally courageous things, being authentically me. what I was really doing was reacting, just reacting to a bunch of tortured, messed up and chaotically changing feelings.

the emptiness you speak of....yes. I felt that, slowly growing throughout my lengthening sobriety. I took a long time sitting with that, with the gap that clearly I'd used alcohol to try and fill. it wasn't loneliness as such, but a much more fundamental alienation. and of course alcohol couldn't fill anything, but worked as illusion for a while. ersatz.

eventually I nderstood it was spiritual hunger, for lack of a better phrase. for something much deeper.

but it's only being sober quite a while that allowed me the wherewithal to stay with the process, and the true courage to go that way.

you're getting sidetracked and letting yourself be blindsided by this obsession. it's now getting you to a mindset where you doubt your healthy decision in favour of stuff like oh, sober life is actually pretty much worse, and so really, not much point to it if any, and anyways....and so....I might as well, because then, when I did, at least I had people, and actually....

the real growth and the real work is by going forward soberly. grappling with emptiness is ultimately a good. ultimately filling.

wishing you well with that.

Soberandhealthy - why do people have to ask me not to get mad at them. I have better people to be mad at lol

Ken33xx - others know the story.. because as someone else said, I brought it up a lot.. I took care of this man's aunt.. and we quickly formed an emotional sort of romantic bond..nothing physical ever transpired but his wife had some freak outs because of our involvement.. and our feelings for each other become very very complicated to say the least.. I did find him extremely attractive physically and in every other way.. I think he was attracted, too.. and in August, a week after I got sober, there was a tense moment in an upstairs bedroom that very well could have led to something.. And then a month ago I panicked when I found out family members knew of the rumors of an affair, I quit the job, as his presence had increasingly caused me fear of a relapse..

The drama was very appealing before I got sober.. the wondering if anything would ever transpire.. I left because I thought it would threaten my sobriety if I stayed.. but I've had a lot of moments where missing him does the same.. I liked my job, as a caregiver, but truth be told, very soon after meeting him, my life revolved around him, my feelings for him, when I would see him again, what might happen.. I showed up to work just to see him most days.. for a year

bemyself: No, I have four months on the 21st.

A lot of problem drinkers find they have issues with codependency and intimacy when they out the booze down. The idea that a person will fix us, the realization that we are driven and defined by other people more than we realised.

That's my overwhelming experience and I would suggest any ex drinker would benefit from looking at that.

P

Brenda, sorry that I don't have any sage advice on your particular situation. I think most of us drank like we did to escape our problems and hide from our true feelings. When we sober up, we find we now have to deal with such things. It can be overwhelming, but I've learned to take it one step at a time. Things have a way of working themselves out, as long as we face them sober.

Hey Brenda. Although I'm not in your exact situation, I've been in a similar one where the relationship was complicated beyond belief due to circumstances. I think I also thrived on the drama, and the expectations that I placed on our eventual happiness together. I think it did temporarily fill that void within me, but it wasn't healthy for me in the long run (go figure!). I even knew this on an intellectual level, but couldn't let this person (or my idea of this person) go.

I still have contact with this person today, but it's low key and takes a back seat to working on my sobriety. Now I try not to entertain any expectations, and instead let the Universe decide how things are going to play out. I'm not a religious person, but in this case I like the quote "Let go and let God".

I know in your situation contact with this man doesn't seem a likely prospect. As much as it hurts right now, I believe that you will eventually think of him less & less as time goes on. You aren't doomed to be thinking about him forever, although I'm sure that's hard to believe right now.

I think it's great that you're able to vent and spill out all those thoughts and feelings here at SR. It's not only good for you but for many of us reading and going through similar things.

When you say things about people not responding etc, to me (perhaps others) it sounds defensive and self-pitying. We are all trying to help and it is hard to know how a sensitive person will react.

As others have said- you, too- you have talked about the same issues a lot, and from the outside we see a lot of reasons it would be so much better for you to figure out a way to let it all go.

It may annoy you to hear this because perhaps it sounds trite....time takes time. This is true for sobriety and our progress, and it is true for getting over someone. Both of those I can attest to from my ESH. I'll also echo what others have said and say that nothing was better when I was drinking, and everything is better - meaning clearer, not easy or perfect or quickly healed- sober. That's the biggest part of your comments that worry me as it is definitely the AV knocking at the door to get you on a path to drinking. Resentments are the number one reason we go back to drinking- even if it seems insane that we resent sobriety so we drink.

What can we do or say that will really be helpful? And if we can offer what you think will help, will you try it?

I was trying to be nice and let someone know that they could talk to me without fear of my flipping out on them.

Guys, I am not here because I am out of ways to cope or am somehow refusing to cope. This is how I cope.

Hey BC. How are you feeling today. Are you out of the vortex? I hope so. That place is Hell on Earth. Xx

But you do sometimes have an antagonistic (albeit subtle) way of reacting to comments. You may not feel that way but when people read it objectively (especially since writing/reading is the only possible communication channel here), they may detect a certain level of push/pull, at times asking for help in what may seem like quite a desperate state of mind and soon after defending your independence and ability to cope. It is possible that I am projecting into your posts somewhat but overall they often transmit these kinds of fluctuations. I think I do get using these intense communications and reactivity as coping though.

As for why people worry (I think you wondered this on another thread as well), I think it's simply because you talk a lot about your complex personal challenges, past and present. And at times you express ambivalence about your sobriety (eg. "I almost wish I hadn't gotten sober"). This is a recovery forum, where most members are quite adamant about sobriety as a priority, it is the main purpose of the board. So when we offer suggestions, typically the protection of sobriety is a priority over other things and it is discussed most often.

As for that "emptiness" thing you mentioned yesterday... I think pretty much every human being has their own version, addict or not. It's almost more a philosophical concept than a mental state (and you can read plenty about it in that context). I think the experience of it is highly subjective but what seems to be quite common is that we perceive it as a drive that causes restlessness. Is it a vague/lack of sense of self for you, or is it missing something, for example? And one question I always like to ask in this context: why not to learn to live with that so-called void instead of endlessly searching for something that appears lacking or incomplete, and trying to fill that "space" or even just find it? Focus more on what is here rather than what is missing? And if it's something that can be defined, try to create it rather than long for it eternally?

If you are interested in these kinds of existential dilemmas and discussions, there have been plenty here on SR over time (that you can find in older threads), some astonishingly rich and high quality. When I first got sober and started using SR a lot, I had a keen eye on those and was actively looking for members to discuss those areas with. I found it very helpful at the time, for quite a while actually.

This is a problem. Your current assumption is that everything would have been fine, that you wouldn't now be lonely, that this is a relationship that not only could have "worked," but would have been healthy in ways that seemed impossible when you originally described what was going on, that it would also have been impossible for him to have any kind of questionable dealings with other caregivers because you were the one he was pursuing, that you were somehow delusional, or at least out-of-touch with what was going on at the time that you made the healthy decision to move on, and that your decision to move on from this mess was a mistake that you cannot now undo because a very unhealthy part of you is now obsessing over him and his absence, around which you feel guilty and unfulfilled.

What do alcoholics and other addicted people do, particularly in early recovery? We beat ourselves up over making healthy choices that deny us of something else that's unhealthy because unhealthy is all we know

Obsessing about people because of a yawning gap in our feelings is not the same thing as love. The reality is that this is precisely the kind of thing that blocks any possibility of experiencing true love and affection. We only call it love and affection because facing the alternatives is not something that we want to do. Obsession does not breed love, but only feeds the obsession. Filling the emptiness in my heart that started growing in my childhood with people and things does not take away the pain or resolve the kinds of destructive behaviors in which I tend to engage in order to avoid feeling the way I’m feeling. It never worked that way.

There are many varieties of therapy/psychotherapy, so there's too much to explain here. Time-limited therapies that work on a particular problem don't pay much attention to who the whole person is, though that's certainly a part of the work. Other therapies proved for a deeper understanding of who and what we are as means of gaining, not insight, but acceptance.

It's not what the therapist says. We are not endowed with infinite wisdom due to our education and training. And we are in the main (therapists who work in ways that are similar to the way in which I work) not in the business of providing tips and tricks or very much in the way of advice. Advice-giving and an abundance of support in the place of a deeper understanding of who and what we are is more in the domain of counseling. It's how the relationship between patient and therapist unfolds, and how each person manages the inevitable conflicts and other situations that arise in any relationship that makes all the difference. The "why" is never as important as the "who."

We learn who we are and the meaning and consequences of what we think, feel and do in relationship to other people. In this case, in relationship to the therapist. Who and what we are and what we do in the consulting room is ultimately no different than who and what we are and what we do outside of the therapeutic relationship. No on is capable of pretending to be something and someone he or she is not over the long-term in this kind of intimate relationship. The more we try to hide, the more that which we are attempting to hide becomes obvious. And then the work focuses on what was motivating the need to hide.

It's not the therapist, but the relationship that heals.

:)

I did not want to elaborate on the therapy topic, Brenda, because you did not seem interested and I sometimes feel that I'm biased and at times over-enthusiastic about it (because it's something I both enjoy and find useful). Just want to say that EndGame's post on it is worth giving a deeper thought. As he said, there are many approaches one can choose from and overwhelming amount of info online. For example, just regarding your topic: many people use therapy to experience closure they never could have in "ordinary" relationships... using the relationship with the therapist. Or to arrive at a state when they realize they no longer need to process or close past things any further.

I've worked with three different therapists in sobriety, each with quite different personality and approach, and each experience brought up different things (also many similar patterns of course) and provided different benefits. It can also be quite fun actually (at least for me) if you like to dive deeply into your inner landscapes and mechanisms and how you function in the interpersonal world. Lots of interesting things to explore and occupy yourself with also between the actual appointments, if you want. My therapists also helped me a lot to explore my own obsessiveness and the many layers of it... and especially the last one helped to actually overcome some very stubborn forms of it. And it wasn't with what the therapist said per se... but the result of a dynamic process that we co-created. Of course it takes time, sometimes discomfort, and a lot of effort, just like recovery.

This stood out to me as well. I feel like "closure" can sometimes be used as an excuse to be in contact again with someone. Continued contact until one reaches necessary closure...which never happens of course, is what bemyself pointed out as so similar to addiction. "I just need to see him one more time, for closure" tuns into "I still don't have closure...I need to keep talking it out with him" which leads to...well, more of the same. I am a firm believer that closure comes from within. Something is over when we ourselves decide it's over.

I very much agree with this. I also think that looking for closure in a destructive or otherwise unhealthy relationship is akin to wanting our alcoholism to be over before we actually give up drinking. Or trying to invest a lot of time into figuring out why we drink, expecting that to help to live sober happily in some mysterious future. I personally do believe that it's possible to close very challenging and painful experiences and genuinely move on but the closure rarely occurs in the context that involved the original damage and pain, and is rarely something that can be foreseen and planned. Why stepping out and doing things differently first is more constructive.

I propose that if someone is being antagonistic, one of the worst things another person can do is point out that fact. It's like saying "Your buttons are showing and I can see them and I'm going to touch them and you can't fault me for that because you're the one having the buttons.." I dunno.. I'll go back now and respond to the other stuff..

There isn't too much specific left to say on my little trip in to the void, even after reading the thoughtful replies.. I do want to thank everyone who tried to help.. I have an ambivalence towards my vents, because while I vehemently defend my need to do so, as many of you have seeen, I typically end up snapping out of it and then wondering why I felt the need to share so much.. in most cases when I'm like the way I was yesterday, there is nothing new to be said that I don't actually deep down know.. and I just end up frustrating others and then I say I'm frustrated at their frustration and they say they're frustrated about my frustration at their frustration.. that is really the way it appears to play out when I read it back once I've snapped out of it and gotten to a better frame of mind.. just me and bunch of folks sniping about our mutual frustrations about me.

I did go to Mass for the first time and it was lovely.. and other than not anticipating how long a Catholic service would be, I loved it and plan to return every Sunday. It really helped to re-balance me.

"have an ambivalence towards my vents, because while I vehemently defend my need to do so, as many of you have seeen, I typically end up snapping out of it and then wondering why I felt the need to share so much.. in most cases when I'm like the way I was yesterday, there is nothing new to be said that I don't actually deep down know.. and I just end up frustrating others and then I say I'm frustrated at their frustration and they say they're frustrated about my frustration at their frustration"

Just thinking, BC, that blog posts might serve you well.....for the most part, people on't reply there to vents, and it seems you possibly intend these posts more like journalling? with not really wanting input?

At the time, when I'm doing it, I think I need to know someone is listening, but never feel certain I'm being heard unless someone replies.. this could explain my prayer life consisting of "Give me strength... and oh by the way, I promise I'll get better at this."

"Seeking closure" with someone also assumes that that someone with whom we are seeking it is as interested as we are in achieving it. In my experience, the other person has already long since moved on, and my efforts to rehash the past only creates more scenarios for which I need closure! :)

I haven't been able to sleep.. I was supposed to work my little min. wage seasonal job I sometimes do for extra money, said I would work at 8, but it's 3:30 and I've been tossing and turning, obsessing over the same old thing.. I just can't understand it. I try to sleep and all I can see is him. It's really beginning to freak me out. Oh, btw.. someone mentioned earlier in the thread it's a bad sign that I'm deciding to become Catholic because HE was Catholic, he wasn't, I was mistaken, he's Lutheran.

I wanted to call my old best friend tonight.. the last time I did talk to him was the evening after the election, which was the day before I quit my previous job.. I would call him and vent but he's dealing with his own recent relapse.. he posted a picture to fb of a terrible bruise he sustained from a fall he has no recollection of.. I know if I called him, the conversation would be one sided.. I'd have nothing to share that could help him.. he would have no idea how to help me.. Feeling very disconnected and lost.