SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/)
-   Alcoholism (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism/)
-   -   making ammends? (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism/348044-making-ammends.html)

zjw 10-16-2014 03:03 PM

making ammends?
 
so in the course of discusing something else with my wife she mentioned that she does believe one of the steps is to make ammends isnt it? (for the record she was not holding it over my head) I replied yes and its unforgiveable what i did it was awful and sadly I'd probably not tolerate the same from someone else. As i broke down in tears. she said yeah you probably wouldnt and wanted to discuss it futher and I said enough I dont want to discuss this. its just simply too painful my kids where also present.

I probably screwed this up talk about feeling ashamed. i feel like a bum and while i do want to make ammends at 3+ years sobriety I have not and thats pathetic and i know it. Let the mud fly *sigh*

biminiblue 10-16-2014 03:13 PM

I'm sorry you're struggling.

I hope you will find a way to forgive yourself. We have been given grace. It is yours for the taking.

((hug))

Dee74 10-16-2014 03:14 PM

No mud here :)

If you're in AA, amends is one of the last steps. There's good reason for that. It's a difficult process.

Making amends is more than an apology -- Hazelden

if you're not in AA it's just as difficult :)
I don't think it's the kind of thing you bring up at the kitchen table with the kids around.

I do think you need to clear the air with your wife tho?

D

zjw 10-16-2014 03:19 PM

yeah I know dee but from my view what i did was unforgiveable nothing i could ever say would be acceptable. She might throw it in my face? tho she has not in all these years go figure... but words mean nothing saying sorry wtf for? I know i'm sick enough i could do that to her all over again even worse the next go around and not think twice once the claws of the disease are sunken deep back in me.

rather then make ammends i've chosen to sober up be a better father husband person etc.. i figure actions have more weight then any words i could ever throw at it.

but yeah it doesnt hange the fact that its clearly not a topic i want to even discuss i just cant i got too choked up and have been cryen since.

sure i feel sorry but what does it matter the proof is in the pudding i'm sober now etc.. i dunno how to handle this properly. i've stuffed this issue in a dark corner. its crazy i can apologize for just about anything but this? like i said it just seems unforgiveable.

Dee74 10-16-2014 03:27 PM

I think like Bimini suggests you might want to look at why you can't forgive yourself, zjw.

We are not simply the sum total of our past actions - we're much more than that :)
I was sick...and then I got well, y'know?

If you can't face your past and there's a great knot of guilt shame and whatever else there...that to me would be something my addiction would be working on day and night to weaken me....

I faced myself at my worst by looking back when I was at my best. It was a protracted process rather like peeling an onion and yeah, it was painful - but it didn't break me...

I forgave myself, I felt a great sense of peace, and I moved on to the rest of my life :)

as for saying sorry...it's not really about that at all...or more accurately it's more than that. The link I posted up above explained it better than I could.

D

zjw 10-16-2014 03:31 PM


We are not simply the sum total of our past actions - we're much more than that
I was sick...and then I got well, y'know?

If you can't face your past and there's a great knot of guilt shame and whatever else there...that to me would be something my addiction would be working on day and night to weaken me....

I faced myself at my worst by looking back when I was at my best. It was a protracted process rather like peeling an onion and yeah, it was painful - but it didn't break me...

I forgave myself, I felt a great sense of peace, and I moved on to the rest of my life
I think about it this way. I dont hang on to it. I've put it to bed etc.. its in the past i leave it there. But yeah obviously there is some kind of issue still isnt htere? If i think about it the reality is my life is rediculously better now then it was when i drank. So i think back on all the things that made it so bad and I could rattle of a long list of all the stuff thats my falt directly or indirectly due to my drinking and nonsense.

when bimini mentioned forging myself the first thing to pop into my mind is i could never forgive my stepfather for the same kinda nonsense so how then could I ever forgive myself? Plenty have told me over the years I should forgive him and I still cant seem to find it in myself to do so. But this isnt about him that just popped into my head.

the fact that I could not even discuss it with her urks me I feel like i missed an opportunity but i just could not go there at that moment.

Dee74 10-16-2014 03:35 PM

The Shack was a wonderful book for me to read zjw.


“Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......”
― Wm. Paul Young, The Shack: Where Tragedy Confronts Eternity
I had hold of a *lot* of people's throats...not least my own...

I had to let go to move on.

D

biminiblue 10-16-2014 03:36 PM

I certainly have done a thing or seventy that I am not proud of. I mostly hurt myself though. Some things are done out of pain or addiction or other unhealthy moments in our lives. Some things I did were for no good reason other than selfishness.

I think in order to forgive myself I had to become a different type of person, more mindful and more sensitive to others. I have done things to people they did not deserve. I have also had things done to me I didn't deserve. It is what it is and the past is the past. I have to change and move forward. If I try to do the right thing, I'm not adding to my list. The things that are in the past have to stay there. "Accept the things I cannot change."

RecklessEric 10-16-2014 03:44 PM

It could be argued that 3 years sobriety is a good start to making amends.
You're ashamed.
I'm ashamed of the things I did.

I don't do AA, but surely making amends doesn't mean that you have to beat yourself up?
Can't you do it slowly and at a pace that works for you both.

zjw 10-16-2014 03:51 PM

yeah recklesseric my hope at this pont is that the ice has at least the ice has been broken i wonder if she realizes this or not....

Biminiblue selfishness is something i find myself always checking myself on. I've always felt i' not selfish at all but from what i've read my addiction says otherwise. Now that i'm sober i constantly find myself talking about me and I think am i being selfish? constantly checking this aspect. I also dont want to be dragged through the mud for something I"m not quilty of its easy to twist things around and guilt someone for somthing that is not true sometimes it can be hard to know the difference when your the one being accused of being selfish hence why I tend to check this trait a lot in myself.

biminiblue 10-16-2014 04:00 PM

Is your wife getting any help for herself? Obviously it won't go well if you suggest it, but we all need help unraveling who's issues are who's.

Make your amends however you see fit - as long as you are sincere, actions will speak louder than words.

zjw 10-16-2014 04:27 PM


Is your wife getting any help for herself? Obviously it won't go well if you suggest it, but we all need help unraveling who's issues are who's.

Make your amends however you see fit - as long as you are sincere, actions will speak louder than words.
__________________
I think she could about my nonsense and other stuff but htats her choice to discover or not etc... I dont want to judge her like that.

Lucky for me my antics could have been worse. there are a LOT of stories considerably worse then mine and thank god I broke free from the claws of it before it got worse then it already was.

totfit 10-16-2014 05:12 PM

Being sober for 3 years in and of itself is a form of amends. Be proud of that.

Ken33xx 10-16-2014 05:48 PM


Originally Posted by zjw (Post 4959286)
...but words mean nothing saying sorry wtf for? I know i'm sick enough i could do that to her all over again even worse the next go around and not think twice once the claws of the disease are sunken deep back in me.


Perhaps think about seeing a marriage councilor and discussing your amend there so you'll be in a in neutral space.

I grew up in a household where apologizes/saying sorry meant nothing and these days a big believer of living amends. Nobody wanted to hear me say sorry esp. not my wife. What she rightfully wanted was a change in my behavior which she got.

You've got three years sober and as long as you stay sober you're in a position to think your actions through before say putting your marriage at risk.

MIRecovery 10-16-2014 06:19 PM

The steps are in order for a reason. By working with a sponsor you will learn that the 8th and 9th steps are a natural and necessary part of your recovery. Hopefully by the time you are on these steps you have forgiven yourself and are now righting as many of the wrongs you can.

Before I would worry about the 8th and 9th I would get a sponsor and work step one

fini 10-16-2014 06:43 PM

isn't part of amends listening to the other person about how our/your action impacted?

wouldn't giving your wife the space and time to say her piece be a necessary part?
wouldn't it be necessary for you/us to hear it without arguing about it?

maybe set aside a time that's mutually convenient without kids around and tell her the amends you're making (being sober and treating her 'better') and accept what she might need to say?

Hawks 10-16-2014 07:31 PM

Maybe you continued a chain of some kind.

It sounds like something is eating you up & eating you up quite badly.

Amends can mean all sorts of things ..... saying sorry, staying sober, treating people lovingly.

It can also mean taking action, therapy maybe ? ....... to ensure that the root cause of the problem is treated and that you are doing everything in your power to ensure it won't happen again ...... breaking the chain for good ... perhaps ? That can be the greatest amends ever.

It is hard to wish away in our own heads .... guilt, remorse, shame etc etc.

I'm no huge fan of the Catholic religion ..... but I do think they got the confession thing right.
Which they have been doing for centuries ... well before there were therapists & councillors .... luckily you can go to any number of professionals these days.

The one thing amends should never be & that is hurting anyone else for your own comfort.

Get it all out to someone who will be unaffected like a therapist & then make the living amends by being a better person in your family.

Best of luck with it ... sincerely :)

EndGameNYC 10-16-2014 10:23 PM

Hi zjw.

Making amends is all about making things right for ourselves regardless of the responses we get. It's not for us to decide whether or not what we've done to others is unforgivable or not, anymore than it's up to us to decide whether or not our help, support and any other acts of generosity on our part are meaningful for those we try to help.


Originally Posted by zjw (Post 4959370)
I also dont want to be dragged through the mud for something I"m not quilty of its easy to twist things around and guilt someone for somthing that is not true sometimes it can be hard to know the difference when your the one being accused of being selfish hence why I tend to check this trait a lot in myself.

You mentioned in your OP that you're concerned that your wife might throw in your face the things you discuss with her while making amends, even though you stated that this has never been the case with her.

You also commented that you suffered from your stepfather's behavior, and that you still experience what he did as unforgivable to you, that you cannot bring yourself to forgive him and, according to your logic, that this makes it impossible for you to forgive yourself. And vice versa.

One of the many definitions of 'forgiveness' is ceasing to harbor resentments. I and many others would argue that the ability to forgive is a significant indicator for psychological health. This ability is also, I believe, a reliable measure of happiness.

There are many reasons why we cannot or will not forgive other people's actions or, put another way, why we hold grudges...Protection against future pain and disappointment, a sense of superiority that appears to strengthen self-esteem (which is truly only temporary), or the type of comfort that often comes with "being right."

What I'm suggesting is that the pain you suffered from your stepfather in part explains the extreme difficulty that you experience in thinking about or discussing your own drinking behaviors which, in turn, invites an emotional return to your earlier suffering. The more you associate your past with your present, the less able you will be to heal. Holding onto resentments inhibits personal growth and promotes negativity. How can the kind of ongoing pain that you've describe offer anything positive for you and for your life?

Also bear in mind that loving relationships in the present can help in healing the hurt of earlier relationships while also nurturing individual growth and a general sense of well-being. This is true for everyone. As things now stand, you're denying yourself and your wife deeper intimacy and potentially greater pleasure down the line due to your anticipation of a type of pain that is overburdened with the events of your past.

I see all that's happened with you lately as providing a tremendous opportunity on your part. With regard to this issue, what would you say to your wife were you to know that you're going to die tomorrow?

SunnyMe 10-17-2014 01:35 AM

I'm sorry you're hurting, zjw. Nothing is unforgivable. As one or two others mentioned, have you thought about counseling? For you, for both of you? A good counselor could provide you with the tools and space to dig gently into some of these issues and begin healing them.

You're worth it.

zjw 10-17-2014 05:46 AM


isn't part of amends listening to the other person about how our/your action impacted?

wouldn't giving your wife the space and time to say her piece be a necessary part?
wouldn't it be necessary for you/us to hear it without arguing about it?

maybe set aside a time that's mutually convenient without kids around and tell her the amends you're making (being sober and treating her 'better') and accept what she might need to say?
lol shes said it believe me shes said her piece more times then I can count. She has yet to really drag me through the mud over my drinking but while i drank she did upon occaision rightly so too. She's dragged me through the mud about other things sometimes jokingly sometimes not. Dont get me wrong shes not some kind of a monster etc.. and I'll gladly endure the drag when its deserved and yeah its really deserved this go around BUT the kicker is I drag myself through the mud enough as it is i have enough of my own shame etc.. I dont want to be dragged again through it by anyone i do a good enough job of that myself. Of course others dont know that i guess.

EndgameNYC your right and the issues with my stepfather are so stinking old but they still sting just as bad if not worse now then they did then. In my drinking days I hit a point in the end where I looked int he mirror and saw his face and that horrified me.

Many have told me to forgive him. pray about it etc.. maybe I have ? and it still hurts? Maybe I have not? When dee posted the piece about having someone by there throat i thought yeah i guess i do still have him by his throat. Lucky for us we live very far from each other and have not spoken or seen each other in almost 20 years. Him walking out on the family was the best thing he coulda ever done. He did manage to do that for us.

When i think about his situation from the perspective of he was clearly a sick person not sane and suffering from many various ailments. I can then have some sympathy compation even wanna extend a helping hand (tho i know he'd yank me in and drown me) but from that perspective what he did seems very forgiveable. he's sick he needs help its not exactly his fault he's so wacked I feel bad for him.

The reality is on the surface i tend to just simply thing how much of a monster he was without giving it further thought.

I luckily dont think i ever hit lows anywhere near the kinda lows he hit. My wife just doesnt deserve someone who selfishly drank like a fish night after night for 13 years of our marriage falling down drunk barfing all over etc.. She should not have had to tolerate that. She deserves better. It was disrespectful for me to behave like that for all those years despite any excuse i might have it was not the right thing to do.

Hollyanne 10-18-2014 02:39 PM

OK, deleted 2 long posts!
I am sad and angry reading this thread.
I can't believe I am saying this, but if you are using the 12 steps of AA, you need to start again.
You are not ready!
You will have to ask your wife to "back up the tractor" and leave you alone for a while.
Of course you are sorry and of course 3 years of sobriety and an honest effort at being a better father and husband is very worthwhile.

What scares me about this, is that you are in danger of drinking if you get too wrapped up in this.
The part of keeping your own side of the street clean applies.
Mrs ZJ is not perfect. Nobody is.

There is a lot going on here.
ACOA stuff for you. AlAnon stuff for Mrs ZJ.

I would seriously consider a very good marriage counsellor for this one.
I am not impressed with the "raking over the past" bit.
Disclaimer; I have ACOA issues as well as Alcoholic myself.
I had to step back from my sponsor because I was in crisis and near to bolting.
I had to accept that I needed to slow down the process to what I could deal with.
The ACOA in me wanted to be listened to and understood.
The Alcoholic had to go over all my faults and forgive everyone and, I was not ready!

My mother has my 85 year old father over a barrel for years over all the wrongs he did.
Never,ever,ever,ever does she look at her own behaviour/actions/lack of action.
I, for one, call BS.
Go easy on yourself. Please. And above all, stay sober.
Hugs.

Anna 10-18-2014 03:32 PM

Not forgiving yourself is an issue of ego. I can say this from personal experience.

The non-forgiving part of you is your ego. It thrives on conflict, and loves to judge, neither of which promotes forgiveness.

You deserve to forgive yourself and hopefully you will be able to forgive others.

Three years of recovery is a great step in amends. You have been living your amends for those three years. Does your wife want to hear specific words from you? Maybe. If so, and you're not comfortable talking about it, how about writing some thoughts for her to read?

RumHound 10-18-2014 04:29 PM

I echo the suggestions to consider therapy or counseling, zjw. Sometimes, the impacts on the offered and receiver of amends is more complicated than a literal application of Step 9 wording was intended to cover. A skilled mental health professional can open up the communication channels in order to delve into traumatic or inflammatory subjects.

Another thought is that maybe your amends is one of those cases where AA says amends should be deferred. But, of course, that deferral leaves you in your present state of mind.

Dilemma.

Do you have a sponsor, zjw?

zjw 10-18-2014 04:36 PM


Does your wife want to hear specific words from you? Maybe. If so, and you're not comfortable talking about it, how about writing some thoughts for her to read?
I dunno what she wants. I'm a man not a mind reader :). In my mind 3+ years of good behaivior is just fine. In her mind I"m sure its something entirely different.

I've pondered writing something even tried a few times. But words dont come out right or she doesnt percieve what i'm trying to say well or both. And with such a sticky topic i feel like I gotta do it right i cant just have it come out all wrong.

For example just the other day I was trying to explain some of what i read in the power of now and how its helped me and she turne daround and told me how it sounds very selfish that all i'm thinking about is me me me etc... What i said and what she said i said where 2 very different things. I dunno maybe it came out all wrong. Or maybe she heard what she wanted to hear? I really dunno. My intention however was nothing of the sort in terms of what she percieved.

Day in and day out things are just fine with us great even. But sometimes I get blind sided with situations like that. So like i said I sit here wondering where to begin.

the other night when she brought this all up I thought wow we might actually get somewhere she raised the issue. But being that the kids where present and being that i got so emotional it just collapsed promptly.

I hope the topic comes up again when its just me and her but I dunno how to raise it or even what to say that will put her mind at ease.

My struggles getting sober have been a struggle for her. countless times shes told me i'm not the man she married. I dont think she means this in a bad way per say but its been difficult for her to get to know / get used to this new person shes married too. I dunno if shes read up on these sorts of things. I know the bluebook talks about it I know I've mentioned it to her a few times how it can be difficult for spouses etc.. BUt i've never gone as far as telling her hey maybe you should look for some support or something that might not go over well or she might simply not care. From my view a few times at an AA meeting might be beneficial for her or reading on sites like this one. Maybe she has researched things further then I know. I really dunno.

zjw 10-18-2014 04:51 PM


Do you have a sponsor, zjw?
nope the times i go to AA no one really talks to me. I mean sure there might be some small talk that goes on and thats the end of that. I do know one guy there but even he doesnt really talk much to me tho we know each other outside of there because our kids are involve dint he same activities.

I dont even have a good friend. I have one good friend who knows me and my wife pretty well. But to be honest he's heard it all over the years and in situations like this he doesnt have much great advice to offer.

It sure would be nice to have a couple decent friends but I dont have any. I know the die hard AA's will say oh well you should go and I know whatever reason I give for not going will chalked up as another excuse. But the reality is theres only 1 meating a week I can even think of getting too and most of the times my kids have activities that evening they start at 8pm and to be honest i put my kids in bed at 830 and i'm wipped my self by then. To go to a meeting then and not be home till 930 or later just stinks. Despite that I do like going to meatings I enjoy it the timing and distance is tough tho for me.

I guess part of the issue as well with my wife and mine disconnect these days is for the past few years shes either been pregnant or just given birth so anyone who's been down this road knows her hormones have been all over the map Hence that could explain some of how she percieves what i say as all wrong or maybe it comes out all wrong. Her postpartum has been awfule these last few pregnancies to the point where she and i both questioned her sanity etc..

So in my case i'm like well in time this will work out. Its just gonna take time is all. thats the reality of it. I know someone said earlier well what if you where gonna die tommorrow. so what if i did? from my view I go into the eternal life when she joins me there we pick up where we left off. life or death its irrelevant to me. I dont view time like that.

but ti doesnt change the fact that it kinda stinks to be at this point in my sobriety with some unfinished business.

Gottalife 10-18-2014 08:52 PM

This is a tough step to work without some guidance. If there is no one suitable in AA, how about the person you took your fifth step with. If it was a priest, I am sure they would have some wise counsel for you.

Hollyanne made a very good point about about going over the earlier steps also. From your comment about uncertainty as to how your wife might react, it could be concluded that in this matter you do not trust your higher power.

The thing about the ninth step is that, unlike all the previous steps, the person we wish to make ammends to is under no obligation to behave as we would wish. They don't have to be supportive or understanding, they can react in any way they like. Whenever I made an amends it began with a prayer to give me the strength to offer the amends without any expectation, for me to simply be willing to clean my side of the street, to do whatever seems appropriate (including what the person thinks the amends should be) without any expectation on the outcome. The outcome is in God's hands, not mine.

Even before that, any major amends commenced with making a plan with my sponsor or spiritual advisor.

The subject of self forgiveness often comes up. I am not sure it is possible while we are still carrying baggage from the past. But I often reflect on how well the steps lead us to self forgiveness.

Consider the process. We admit our porblem and take action on a solution. In that solution we recognise and face our short comings. We look squarely at the damage we have done and become willing to set things straight if we can. We go to the people we have hurt explaing our situation, acknowledging our wrongs and undertaking never to behave that way again, asking for forgiveness, AND offering restitution in whatever form is appropriate.

We present with contrition (recognising that we have been/done wrong and will not do it again) and restitution. Ask anyone who has taken step nine fully and they will say that forgiveness is usually forthcoming, and frequently there is the miracle of reconciliation, where trust is restored, and there is healing of old wounds. At the end of a ninth step like this where you have done everything in your power to set right past wrongs, and left the results in the hands of your higher power, what's left to forgive?

zjw 10-19-2014 10:01 AM


for me to simply be willing to clean my side of the street,
I like that line. all to often in my case i feel drawn or suckered into chased after the other side of the street too. When I stop and say nah I'm worrying about my mess right now I tend to get accused of being selfish. One thing when i sobered up I had to let go of lots of stuff and not to let it get the best of me so that i could focus on getting healthier. Part of me keeping balance its trying to stay on my side of the street and only shoulder what i can when i can etc.. This holds true not just with my relations with my wife but with everyone and everything.

It could be argued that when one says i'm being selfish for focusing on something to better myself etc.. they could perhaps be the selfish one wanting to deny me my happiness.

everyones post has been pretty helpful. I think talking about it is softening the topic in my head. It'll be easier when the time comes.

Boylan 10-19-2014 01:44 PM

I think about staying on my side of the street very often. It's one of the mantras I want to build my life around. I seem to always struggle with the the question, "Whose side of the street (issue) is this, really?" Somehow I tend to think I should try to fix whatever the situation is, like I haven't done enough about it. Mostly, I guess, I think I caused the problem so now I need to resolve it.

Anyway, even so, I've been able to let a lot of stuff go so that I really can focus on my side of the street. And that includes asking questions of myself like, "Does this situation cause ME pain?" "What will be the result of the action/s I'm thinking of taking to resolve it?" "How will that benefit ME?" "Really, will it benefit ME?" "Can I set it aside for now, instead?"

Is all that selfish? Yes, it is, and that is totally ok with me!

I know you're asking about amends with your wife. I understand; I have a husband of 30 years, most of them pretty good. To me, based on my own experience and what I've read in this thread, I guess I'd just have to say that maybe give it time, work on the ego thing (I get it!), and it will happen naturally when it happens.

Best of luck to you!

FeliciaM 10-19-2014 10:23 PM

Wow, what a thread. So, your wife has been pregnant the past few years, born your children, cleaned your vomit and remained married to you. Kudos to both of you. Living with an AH is hell, dealing with his sobriety is also very difficult and trying for the entire family.

Sure actions count, but words have meaning as well. Perhaps true, honest, heart felt words from sober you to your wife will be what she needs to hear. Have you thanked her?

It sounds like you don't trust yourself to take the leap, it is hard to be vulnerable. Perhaps two or three sessions with a councelor will help with this. Talk it through here, there is a lot of support.

zjw 10-20-2014 05:18 AM

well the past few years yes shes been pregnant but i've been sober those few years. But I have 6 kids so the years before that she was pregnant too :) and tolerated my nonsense.

SOmeitmes I think subconciously she wants me to come down a few notches. Maybe not drink but maybe not be so square and black and white. She wants me to have a slice of cake with her per say but I dont eat that stuff any longer. There are things she misses about the old me. Maybe I straightened up too much.

I sometimes ponder gaining 50lbs or so becuase shes told me countless times she liked it better when i ate the same things as the family and had more meat on my bones etc... I told her you have any idea what your asking me to do? I'd have to eat some unhealthy stuff and probably would no longer be anywhere near as fit as i am i might not even be as happy the depression and anxiety might get worse etc... She responds with a *sigh* and that sometimes she just wishes things could be like they where.

to me things are better. To her? I dunno. I guess not.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:40 PM.